NY food stamp recipients are shipping welfare-funded groceries to relatives in Jamaica, Dominican Re

reply to post by windword

It's not fraud if those people legally qualify for food stamps.

You're totally missing the boat here. If they stated at the time they applied that they would be using the benefits to send food overseas instead of use the food for themselves to survive they would have been denied. Applying under false pretenses is fraud. So the fact that they were approved is irrelevant if they aren't using the benefits for themselves.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Oh Okay, meal planning and cooperative kitchens that use a pooling system with food stamps is pre-meditated fraud.

Families would also be denied food stamps if they claimed upon application or receipt of food stamps that on birthdays, Easter, 4th of July, Thanksgiving and Christmas they intend to contribute to a multi-family meal.



Civil disobedience isn't fraud.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Oh Okay, meal planning and cooperative kitchens that use a pooling system with food stamps is pre-meditated fraud.

Families would also be denied food stamps if they claimed upon application or receipt of food stamps that on birthdays, Easter, 4th of July, Thanksgiving and Christmas they intend to contribute to a multi-family meal.

Civil disobedience isn't fraud.

Honestly, are "cooperatives" being used by anything but a tiny minority of foodstamp recipients? You are really stretching to try to justify acts of simple dishonesty. The article clearly states that this food is arriving in Haitian stores by the barrelful. This is not sharing an occasional family meal.

Civil disobedience is fraud when you take things under false pretenses and use them for purposes they are not intended. I would wager that, if a general in the Army took money intended for new body armor for his troops and used it to buy body armor for his friend's security company, you'd be demanding he be prosecuted.

Somewhat related, around here if you go into a grocery store on the right day you will have up to 3 people in the first 15 minutes come up to you and offer to buy all your groceries for the $100 cash. You know they're using that cash for drugs and it doesn't feel awesome to abuse the welfare system, but it's hard to beat $400 in groceries for only $100 when you don't make a lot and youve got a family to feed.

To be honest, I cannot understand the uproar here. 10 years ago I had to go on Food Stamps as I had a mysterious illness that required me to go to 6 different doctors every week – really hard to work when seeing doctors, not to mention that my illness made it impossible to work if I wanted to. I received $300 a month for my son and I – back then food was a lot cheaper and I could usually feed the two of us for maybe $25 a week, which meant I had a huge surplus. I used it to stock up as I planned to go off Welfare just as quickly as I could, which I did as soon as I found a job I could do from home that was flexible.
That said if I had maybe an elderly mother in Haiti who could not work not because she was lazy but she was ill and she was starving to death literally, I’m sorry but I don’t think I could just sit back and allow that to happen while I am in the States and able to eat quite well. Would you let your own relatives starve to death, when you have the means to help them? Granted, in this scenario, your means would come from the State, but does it matter? I could not sit back and allow a relative to starve to death just because it is considered fraud. Sorry, I’d send them food in an instant.

When I was on welfare, I was part of a forum intended to save money that had members who pretty much reamed anyone who admitted to being on welfare – it was always talk of people being lazy, not wanting to work, their money shouldn’t have to pay for Welfare. They went as far as to say no one should accept unemployment because that too was a form of welfare. People should save money for such things, and be self-sufficient through whatever disaster may come their way. It’s funny now, 10 years on. Some of those same people have admitted to losing their homes, being on welfare, or having to take out unemployment. It’s really easy when times are good and you have plenty to sit and judge other people…until something happens to you.

I’m tired of people thinking that it is their money just because they hand it over to the IRS. It is no longer your money plain and simple. Do we have any say when the government decides to give “your money” to bail out the banks? To aid this or that country? To fight all of those useless, pathetic wars? Welfare in general is a pittance compared to all the waste in government, all the kickbacks big companies receive, or the millionaires that have found loopholes and pay little to no taxes at all. I simply do not understand why people get so enraged over those that receive welfare, or in this case what some decide to do with their Food Stamps…it is small potatoes compared to the waste that is going on with “your money” in government.

Now that I do have a decent job, I do make sure to give money to those that need it. I absolutely refuse to give to the big charities as I know that most of that money does not go to those in need. I think this nation is terribly greedy. It is all about ME and those that are below ME do not matter.

reply to post by NavyDoc


Foreign nationals often have tight knit communities, and yes cooperative kitchens among those communities, and other ethnic or family situations are not that uncommon. I've personally seen, and participated, in it many times in Hawaii, back in the 1970's when my daughter and I were recipients.

It's the only the way that I can see the scenario in the OP happening, if the food stamps recipients are legally receiving food stamps. I'm just giving them the benefit of the doubt, and opining on how food stamp recipients could feed their families and still manage to send food overseas, while musing on the restrictions food stamp recipients are under.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Oh Okay, meal planning and cooperative kitchens that use a pooling system with food stamps is pre-meditated fraud.

Families would also be denied food stamps if they claimed upon application or receipt of food stamps that on birthdays, Easter, 4th of July, Thanksgiving and Christmas they intend to contribute to a multi-family meal.

Civil disobedience isn't fraud.

Hello. You can't redifine fraud as civil disobedience. What kind of backwards logic is that? Can I call murder "generational planning" and make it legal??

Wow, some of the responses here are unbelievable. So rather than taking the extra that is bought with government supplied food stamps and giving back to your 'local food bank' so that others who don't have enough can get more, it is shipped out of the country is amazing. Plus welfare must be being used to pay for it to be shipped out?
I think every tax payer should keep a copy of that article and write off the donation made on their behalf as a charitable donation to these countries. Maybe then someone might look into this and cut the amounts seeing that they are giving too much to the recipient in the first place.

BTW, These countries do receive contributions from every government in the free world on our behalf, it is called Foreign Aid, what the receiving government does with this is not controlled by any of them.
Foreign Assistance US

Canada's Foreign Aid

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Oh Okay, meal planning and cooperative kitchens that use a pooling system with food stamps is pre-meditated fraud.

Families would also be denied food stamps if they claimed upon application or receipt of food stamps that on birthdays, Easter, 4th of July, Thanksgiving and Christmas they intend to contribute to a multi-family meal.

Civil disobedience isn't fraud.

Hello. You can't redifine fraud as civil disobedience. What kind of backwards logic is that? Can I call murder "generational planning" and make it legal??

FRAUD

A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

-----------------------

Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.
legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...

If the food stamps were legally allocated, no fraud was committed.

reply to post by windword


If the food stamps were legally allocated to a person who stated when applying that they needed the assistance for their sustenance and yet when given said assistance used the money not for their sustenance, but for the sustenance of other people. That by definition is fraud. Stating one set of circumstances during the application process and using benefits for an entirely different agenda than the one attested to at the time the application was made.

reply to post by windword

Welfare fraud refers to various intentional misuses of state welfare systems by withholding information or giving false or inaccurate information.

Welfare Fraud

If the recipient is not using the assistance to provide food for themselves or the household where they reside that is misuse of the system. And if the plan was to do this when the person applied for benefits it is giving false and misleading information.

If these people want to help others in foreign countries they should do so on their own dime. Not taking benefits the system allocates for the person in need for themselves or their household if they have dependents with them in said household. Misuse of that program is by definition "fraud".

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Sorry, but I see civil disobedience, not fraud. But, as to the letter of law, civil disobedience is always illegal.

Luke 11:46
And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by shaneslaughta

 

It is not illegal for people to send food to other countries. It is not theft as they are doing with their property what they choose. You do not own their food just because they bought it with food stamps, they do.

actually you are INCORRECT. i have family on food stamps, the rules are actually rather draconian dealing with it. it is PROHIBITED to give ANY food stamp food to other people right down to the fact that you CAN NOT EVEN STORE this food with someone else's food. even in a fridge, to deal with this members of the family who are on foodstamps (due to disabilities) have to keep their stuff separate in the vegetable crispers. the dry goods having to be stored separately can not for example share a cupboard and so they have to have plastic bins to keep it separate. you can be checked at any time and violations can get you kicked off of foodstamps. sadly due to these limitations they end up eating more unhealthy crap, not only because it is cheaper but the fact that "fridge space" is limited due to the need of keeping things separate so fresh foods like milk are replaced by pop which doesn't need refrigeration, fresh fruits and veggies are replaced by snack foods like chips for the same reason and "instant" food is the norm yet again because it does not require refrigeration as well as meal preparation actually requires completely separate meals for EACH PERSON since they can't share or eat each other's food, which of course means that trying to make "real" meals would be extremely time consuming due to each person having to share appliances to make their food. so the way the rules are it IS NOT THEIR PROPERTY more like a "loan" that only they can partake of.

Give a man a fish, they eat for a day, teach a man to fish, they eat for life..... This is where my Govt. is failing. They need to educate these welfare recipients to how they can get off this program. But unfortunately, they'd prefer to just give them a fish a day at the taxpayers expense....

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Oh Okay, meal planning and cooperative kitchens that use a pooling system with food stamps is pre-meditated fraud.

Families would also be denied food stamps if they claimed upon application or receipt of food stamps that on birthdays, Easter, 4th of July, Thanksgiving and Christmas they intend to contribute to a multi-family meal.

Civil disobedience isn't fraud.

Hello. You can't redifine fraud as civil disobedience. What kind of backwards logic is that? Can I call murder "generational planning" and make it legal??

FRAUD

A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

-----------------------

Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.
legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...

If the food stamps were legally allocated, no fraud was committed.

edit on 23-7-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

That makes no sense. There are many people in prison today for misusing properly allocated funds and materials. When you misrepresent the funds you are asking for and use them for other than the intended purpose, that is fraud and is very dishonest.

reply to post by neo96


When I first read the headline it made me angry.....welfare fraud pisses me off.
But reading that they take several months to fill a barrel with rice and such doesnt seem quite as bad as shipping their whole food stamp allotment out every week,

Technically it's surely against the law.

My fiance gets free car wash service on her used c class - so I was sitting there on my lunch break at the dealer and when I looked around all I saw were black adults who were also waiting for there cars.

This lady next to me had a brand new iPhone and she kept giving it to her baby and he kept throwing it face down onto the concrete. Even the richest people I know don't waste money like that.

We see alot of fraud in Rancho - there is at least 3 rent controlled communities filled with high end luxury cars that are driven by black people on welfare. There is some latino and white welfare fraud as well but usually it's very subdued, not the driving pimped out white range rovers kind of fraud that black people here are fond of.

We even had a Jamaican lady working for us - we paid her 140K which is alot for a Sys Admin but not in this area of trying to keep talent. We even spent about 50K to get her legalized.

The problem was no matter how much money she made, the fact her daughter was going to MIT or the fact she could be elevated no higher in our company she was constantly a problem, in-sighting women to start arguments with men, making racist or just highly derogatory comments and basically acting about a hood as possible.

That most annoying Geico ring tone commercial - she actually had that, and would throw her cans in the trash rather then putting them in the bin we use to recycle and pay for sodas for the staff with - essentially cheating us everyday out of even that 5 cents.

The final straw came after she bragged to co-workers that she was going to sue us to put her kid through college - bye bye

That people are stealing from the US to aid other counties is hardly shocking - 16 billion pours out of our state into mexico from money earned by illegals that dont pay taxes here and often operate on stolen ID's

reply to post by NavyDoc


Get a little perspective. Leading nations into a bogus war based on lies of weapons of mass destruction is" fraud and very dishonest". Sharing surplus bags of rice and beans, purchased with food stamps, with impoverished relatives is simply civil disobedience, that if discovered, will get one kicked off aide.

No one can argue that this isn't illegal - it is. It's not the intent of these services either. But, I suspect that the article is misleading, portraying the situation as some sort of systemic abuse and burden when it's not.

An individual making 50K a year (the US average, rounded) pays $36 a year in taxes for the SNAP program (food stamps), WIC and school lunches. Honestly, even if there's some abuse, it's a small price to pay to ensure that no one goes hungry that needs it. I don't resent giving food to anyone. And the occasional abuse isn't something to be making a huge deal out of.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Sorry, but I see civil disobedience, not fraud. But, as to the letter of law, civil disobedience is always illegal.

Luke 11:46
And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

Okay, and as had been previously pointed out you're redefining welfare fraud to justify it. Thank you for being honest about that.