Cops violate man's rights (again) while being interviewed by local news station!

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by wirefly

 

I guess picking my battles matters more than picking fights with guys who have the society granted authority to do things, up to and includng kill me, depending on circumstance.

If they're friendly, open and not pushing a fight...why start one? When did being asked for an ID in a public area, particularly....outside their own building..become something worth feeling offended over? I don't recall the outrage 20-25 years ago when I was getting "ID checked" in California all the time, as a teen? Part of life sometimes...and always has been.

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen! The attitude that got the Jews their free train rides to "camp"!!

Don't you understand? You are not the one picking the fight!! He picks the fight with you by bullying you into showing your ID. You are the one cowering down at your master's feet as they threaten you with violence unless you submit to their arbitrary demands. At what point do you resist? When is enough enough? Do you let them randomly single you out for a patdown? What if one of them decided that you have hidden contraband with-IN your person? Do you submit to a body cavity search just because some cop said he suspects something? Is that a fight worth"picking"?

You are constitutionally protected against ALL of those actions. You are so privileged as to live where that is the case. However, if you don't stand up against the small stuff, the ID checks et al, I guarantee that you won't have the grit to stand up to the more egregious violations. You are empowering them to trample on your rights and your children's rights every time you let them get away with it. You make it worse on yourself down the road.

Sometimes you just have to dig in and fight for the freedom others died for. Nothing worth having comes without a fight, but, you won't have to fight nearly as hard to keep it as you will to try to get it back once it's gone.

reply to post by wirefly


I think it's time we all acknowledged (however sadly) that the Constitution means Jack # & go from there.

And no, I'm not kidding at all.

reply to post by schadenfreude


Why not give your ID? I dont get it. Its like people want to become martyrs.....If he was just filming traffic he could have just said that and continued to do so.....what a doofus.

Originally posted by PsykoOps
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

So if I come up to you and ask for your ID you're just going to give it to me? Cops without a cause have 0 right to ask for persons ID.

If you ID yourself as a cop or other proper authority to have reason to ask? Yes. I will show ID upon request. I have no clue why they may be asking. Perhaps I vaguely match the description of someone they're looking for? There could be a burglary outbreak or other issue in the area which I'm totally unaware of and has absolutely nothing to do with me...but they don't know that.

On the flip side, as a homeowner? If my house is burgled as one of a string in the area? I'd demand the cops be out doing general ID checks of who they see lurking about the neighborhood and give them pretty wide discretion to define lurking.

Again....I have NO idea why cops would be asking me in a given public place, to see my ID? (In my case..it could also be that my gun was showing, in which case, I don't have the legal option to 'just say no' to producing my permit, anyway)

reply to post by tadaman


It's called the 4th amendment.

Bill of RIghts

Is the concept REALLY this hard to grasp?

Originally posted by schadenfreude
reply to post by wirefly

 

I think it's time we all acknowledged (however sadly) that the Constitution means Jack # & go from there.

And no, I'm not kidding at all.

No!! I will never acknowledge that!
I'll never give up or quit!
I'll never let my children down.
I will give my children every opportunity I can for them to thrive.
I will give them all that I have because they are worth it!!!
I will give YOUR children all that I can because they are worth it!!!
Never ever quit!!
Never ever quit!!

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I also understand your intent. (Or at least think I do) And it seems like a kind & gentle one.

But honestly? I don't think we live on the same planet anymore.

Times have changed too much. (And I wish they didn't, but there it is.)

Originally posted by schadenfreude
reply to post by tadaman

 

It's called the 4th amendment.

Bill of RIghts

Is the concept REALLY this hard to grasp?

If we're going to quote constitutional law and principle for this, let's be complete and accurate with it. This is a settled matter, in that sense, and the police DO have the right to demand identification on a stop or casual encounter. They do, in fact, have the right to arrest you until proper identification can be determined. I'm not saying that. The US Supreme Court said it.

HIIBEL v. SIXTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT OF NEVADA, HUMBOLDT COUNTY, et al. (2004)

Petitioner Hiibel was arrested and convicted in a Nevada court for refusing to identify himself to a police officer during an investigative stop involving a reported assault. Nevada’s “stop and identify” statute requires a person detained by an officer under suspicious circumstances to identify himself. The state intermediate appellate court affirmed, rejecting Hiibel’s argument that the state law’s application to his case violated the Fourth and Fifth Amendments. The Nevada Supreme Court affirmed.

Held: Petitioner’s conviction does not violate his Fourth Amendment rights or the Fifth Amendment’s prohibition on self-incrimination. Pp. 3—13.

Source

I don't have to love or even agree with the law. It's enough to know that it is, in fact, the law. At least, that's enough for me not to start or escalate something that may not have become anything, otherwise. Until/Unless SCOTUS reverses itself, anyway.

reply to post by wirefly


Who said anything about quitting?

The Founding Fathers saw that the laws didn't apply to the Crown, which started the Rev War in the first place.

I'm a realist, I think most aren't. They either believe things will get better, or that nothing can change.

Look at the headlines. Solyandra. NSA & Verizon. Lehmann Bros. Bank of America & illegal foreclosures. etc

How many arrests? How many convictions?

If you have money, you can buy your way out of anything. And if you enforce THEIR laws, you can equally walk away from murder.

Admitting there is a problem is the first step, not a sign of surrender.

Of course most want to believe they live in Disneyland, despite evidence to the contrary on the 6 o'clock news.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


The only problem I have with this post is two-fold:
One, it's not unilaterally enforced across the country.
And two, just b/c a justice says "It's legal" Doesn't make it so either.
(Legislating from the bench.)
That's what Congress is (supposed) for.

Originally posted by wirefly

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by wirefly

 

I guess picking my battles matters more than picking fights with guys who have the society granted authority to do things, up to and includng kill me, depending on circumstance.

If they're friendly, open and not pushing a fight...why start one? When did being asked for an ID in a public area, particularly....outside their own building..become something worth feeling offended over? I don't recall the outrage 20-25 years ago when I was getting "ID checked" in California all the time, as a teen? Part of life sometimes...and always has been.

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen! The attitude that got the Jews their free train rides to "camp"!!

Well, there we have hyperbole of the absolute worst sort, anyway. You really had to go to Nazi crap?

Don't you understand? You are not the one picking the fight!! He picks the fight with you by bullying you into showing your ID.

Following the law as set down in writing that we can all read, all understand and all know where we stand in relation to, it's called living in a nation of law and one based on it. Confrontation with a Law Enforcement Officer who has not, by overt action, made it confrontational with you..is picking a fight with someone AUTHORIZED to shoot you. How wise is that? The street is NEVER the place to challenge a cop. Challenge them in COURT, where even they are sometimes at a hard disadvantage. Depends on the Judge, for that one.

You are the one cowering down at your master's feet as they threaten you with violence unless you submit to their arbitrary demands.

I'm following the law as it stands right now, in this nation. It's civilized behavior.

At what point do you resist?

At the point the cop IS NOT followng the law any longer and the situation is reaching a point where holding my complaint for his watch commander isn't going to cut it any longer. I've yet to experience a situation go that far.

You are constitutionally protected against ALL of those actions.

No, you're not. See the 2004 Supreme Court case I cited in another post above. You have misunderstood the nature and context of your rights in this instance.

However, if you don't stand up against the small stuff, the ID checks et al, I guarantee that you won't have the grit to stand up to the more egregious violations.

That's simply an ignorant statement. You have NO idea what I've done in life or what I've chosen to sacrifice in standing up for what I believed were violations. Often committed against OTHERS and not even my own issue to be offended with.

You are empowering them to trample on your rights and your children's rights every time you let them get away with it. You make it worse on yourself down the road.

I still know too many cops personally and on a friendly basis to believe that, for an instant. We have a RADICALLY different perception of the world from what I suspect are VERY different life experiences and years to have accumulated them.

Sometimes you just have to dig in and fight for the freedom others died for. Nothing worth having comes without a fight, but, you won't have to fight nearly as hard to keep it as you will to try to get it back once it's gone.

...and sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor. Even when you're right. Knowing when that time comes is the difference between living to be a Great Grandfather and dropping dead by 40 of a heart attack or stroke from self induced stress, every day of life.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Forgive me for presuming to know your past Wrabbit. Point taken.

Originally posted by schadenfreude

But ya all go ahead, and buy those "Don't tread on me" flags, and have Molon Labe in your avatars/signatures, meanwhile reality presses on.

/Nothing personal towards those that do btw, just VERY po'ed.

You know, I understand your frustration with the lack of action against these thug police tactics. I watched the new movie "state of mind" here's the trailer:



The fact is the American people have been psychologically conditioned to not react. Plus the adding in of fluoride a known pacifier, and you get the results of inaction. Some of us are awake, but we are a small minority of the population. It is so easy to stir up the lemmings against one another. I feel as if we are in check-mate. In fact, years ago, I interviewed the author of "Check-mate the game of princes" on my radio show. His book was in line with Perloff's "Shadows of Power" with more up to date information and events to move the game forward.

If we react, they declare martial law. If we don't react, they take our freedoms and we become a totalitarian state. Studies in the late 1960's proving how easy it was to take normal people and turn them into thugs or victims along the lines of Germans who became prisoners in concentration camps vs guards abusing those prisoners. The police are dehumanized with their uniforms. It gives them a group sense and anonymity. The people are dehumanized as being a bunch of thug criminals and its "Us vs them" in the eyes of the police. They are no longer peace keepers but law enforcement.

We are fast approaching 1984.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


i appreciate the info & the sentiment, but imo, I believe Alex is a form of "dissident control". A pressure valve if you will, that will remain at a constant state of readiness until it's time to "set it off."

I don't make this statement with malice, Alex has definitely contributed important works & documentation to the cause of freedom. (IOW I am not a hater) After listening to him for several years however, there were certain things that happened that didn't feel right to me when I heard them, and I came to this conclusion.

But I thank you for the info.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I'm not a cop. But I have exactly same right to see your ID than a cop without a cause. That's what I meant.

Here is where the guy was standing.
goo.gl...

The video is misleading. This guy was standing in front of the jail the news crew decided not to show the jail behind him.

And how about the sign that says official business only?

They do have a problem with signs there. They should have a sign saying no loitering. And I feel sorry for the kid that is going to get ran over with that school crossing sign being covered by the tree to the left. Now that is something to complain about.

goo.gl...

Before I saw it posted above, I was going to mention "state of mind," too. It wasn't all new to me, but it was pretty comprehensive.
Although I think Jones is crazy, or whatever, I am so glad I get to hear what he has to say. Even if he is doing something shady, I know enough to not listen to everything. It's almost depressing because of the immense scale of possible behind the scenes attacks on humanity and freedom. I see i have been conditioned to fall in line, but Jan 1, 2012 changed me with the news of the NDAA being passed, on a fri or sat, New Year's Eve, when no one was paying attention. This, after hearing so much from the Prez about how he would block it, but it wouldn't even get that far. I still fall in line, but I am aware of a lot of the tactics that have been, or are being used on me. When I see stories like this, I am grateful. While on the surface, it looks like they are just stirring the pot, what they're doing is exposing the infringements upon our rights. In individual cases, it may seem harmless, but the ever advancing infringements, according to history, leads to misuses power and tyranny. Regarding guns, I don't own one, but I understand now, not two years ago, about the true intent of the 2nd amendment. It is for personal protection, but also for community protection, from unjust government oppression, or even 'red dawn'ish invasion. Not that we need to use it for that at this point, we don't, but if we lose that right, we'll not have it available when it's needed.
One thing they didn't realize was that even if I didn't, or don't my rights, I have been conditionedl value them!

reply to post by schadenfreude


Here's what i see: a man caught the attention of the local law enforcement, who are paid to keep a vigilant eye on the activities of the city in order to more effectively protect and serve the citizens whose taxes are spent on such security measures, and when POLITELY questioned regarding his activities, he antagonized the police offers by making their job more difficult than it had to be.

What if he had forked over his ID?

What if he had cooperated fully?

What if he had done everything they asked, short of leaving the premises or not videotaping?

The way he immediately asked, "Am I committing a crime?" sounds like a challenge. The way he continued to resist their attempts to secure the situation was just throwing more gas on the brush fire. I don't see any reason for what he did other than to intentionally irritate the local police.

I have no sympathy for what happened in that video. I understand rights and liberties and all of that, but these people are going out of their way to cause problems. Whether or not he went out there intending to pick that fight, he made a very poor decision in deciding to be difficult. Everybody talking about police making trouble for the citizens...and then you get these guys who go out and give the police a reason to be hard on them. And then they act as though they were in the right! No. He challenged them, they answered the challenge. End of story.

How did I miss this?
Ummmm, yes. Why would I not cite an event of historical significance which is relevant to the discussion?

Well, there we have hyperbole of the absolute worst sort, anyway. You really had to go to Nazi crap?

edit on 21-7-2013 by wirefly because: (no reason given)

I know someone who is a pro landscape photographer who has won many awards. He was in a downtown city taking a photo of a building that the building owner had asked to be taken at sunset when the light was prefect. Street cop came up asked what he was doing and askfor ID. My friend tried to explain he only had about 2 minutes left of light being perfect for the photo and he would produce ID after he got the shot. Long story short, cop was impatient and friend almost went to jail if it weren't for the wealthy and well known building owner coming out and telling the cop it was ok. What's wrong with the cops having a little bit of understanding and being patient?

Different scenario. Another friend who is a wedding photographer,on the day of the wedding was following the limo. Limo was speeding and photog was trying to catch up. Got pulled over for speeding and ticketed. He explained he was a wedding photographer and had pro equipment. Cop made him open hisTrunk and show him all equipment to make sure it wasn't stolen or something.Stupid. He was late to the reception and of course bridezilla was understanding.not. Again i understand he was breaking the law by spreading but what about a little discretion? Hope if the cop gets married, buddies give his wedding photog a hard time.