humanity punished in eternal hell? Theology

reply to post by Rex282

I won't be addressing you anymore in this thread because you are a fool asking foolish questions you have no desire to be answered truthfully nor could you understand them.

I'll keep that in mind while I make my own posts, not to write them as questions, since I will not be expecting any answers, like the answer I didn't get to my other question, which is what your message is and what are you trying to accomplish, and why bother, and what is your source of your thinking that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

That is your stock response not mine.I didn't say that at all.

You also don't explain why Jesus chose the disciples, if they were not to be the ones to establish the church.

You are the one twists words and statements not me.

I was just asking a question, and you think that is "twisting". If I am, you do have the opportunity to untwist it if I'm misunderstanding what you are saying.

You assume you know more than others.It is you that is a know it all that knows nothing and assumes everyone is like you.

I don't think that I am assuming anything, if I read a post where someone is quoting Bible verses where they are applying it in some way that doesn't fit with what it was written to mean. I don't claim to have some special source of knowledge other than to just read the verses in a way that is looking to find its actual meaning. Its just doing a little study and doing some critical thinking, and then I am willing to share what I find out, so everyone can get up to what I know. I'm not trying to be all enigmatic as if I am holding back on a secret that I am keeping for myself.

I don't judge anyone.I am only stating what I hear and you are deaf to it.I don't blame or condemn you for it or belittle you... it is just fact

Oh, so saying things like, "All you are doing is nothing but spout religious rhetoric that is meaningless and full of fear and hate.What you think I'm doing doesn't matter to me at all because what you say means nothing.You are the one spreading contentions and false doctrines of lies of religion not me." is not being judgmental, that you are just stating facts? Well, I think you have a funny idea of what a fact is, since all this that you are saying about me seems very subjective to me.

Because THAT is the Gospel.It is not good news to you because you can't hear it.You believe in your religion.

The Gospel is the good news of the arrival of the kingdom, and that we now have our king in Heaven, who is Jesus. I don't think that I need a religion to tell me that but to just read the Bible and to understand what it says. Your own religion seems to be telling you that the Gospel is "everyone is saved because God is the savior."

You are completely wrong as usual.

Maybe you should point out how I am wrong, and while you are at it, why the Bible is wrong.

I don't compel anyone to say or write Yahoshua or any name.

Thanks for that.

Yahoshua (Gods is salvation) is his name clear and simple and you don't know it at all.

No, it is not "clear and simple". You are going through an exercise in fantasy, by taking a Hebrew word and then translating it into Syrian, then re-translating it back into Hebrew, to take it from its beginning, where it meant "savior", to an end point where it supposedly means "The Lord saves" (or pick your favorite deity name).

We know each other here as pseudonyms for the most part, and again for the most part, we don't know much about each others' theology, life history, education, career, ideology, standing with God, or the contents of their respective libraries. Everyone, please try to understand what the other person is saying, for there is too much "reading into" going on, and not just in this thread. Some of us like to study words, compare languages, and scriptures. Others prefer a direct, even mystical connection to God. Some are hearers, and others are doers. There is plenty of room for diversity in the body of believers, and some tolerance and LOVE indicate to the skeptics and scoffers that our Christian walks are genuine. You dishonor God with your needless arguments. Hammer out what it all means if you must, but do it with mutual respect.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
We know each other here as pseudonyms for the most part, and again for the most part, we don't know much about each others' theology, life history, education, career, ideology, standing with God, or the contents of their respective libraries. Everyone, please try to understand what the other person is saying, for there is too much "reading into" going on, and not just in this thread. Some of us like to study words, compare languages, and scriptures. Others prefer a direct, even mystical connection to God. Some are hearers, and others are doers. There is plenty of room for diversity in the body of believers, and some tolerance and LOVE indicate to the skeptics and scoffers that our Christian walks are genuine. You dishonor God with your needless arguments. Hammer out what it all means if you must, but do it with mutual respect.

My name is Rex.It is not a pseudonym(and yes I know that's not what you mean) I said it to clarify I am not being mystical in the least.I do think what we write on line especially in a forum like this and it's subjects do show a lot of who we are.Even though Yahoshua did not write the scriptures they did show his character and how easily he is disseminated into a cartoon character in the image of religion..

I am amazed at the many who said they read and study the scriptures cannot get a grasp of that.The majority of what he said that is written is not what would be considered kind at all.Matthew 23 would get him thrown out of any church or crucified if he substituted pastor or church (which is who he is talking to today) for Pharisee and Sadducee and scribe).

He did not mince words yet no one understood anything he said.He didn't cut anyone any slack including his close friends when they spoke foolishly.He said I only do what the father does and tells me.Was that true or was he just being a dick .

He was constantly being harassed by the religious asking him questions trying to trap him in his answers to condemn him.Yet he never asked the ignorant questions(well once after they tried to corner him).He knew their hearts.These are the signs of what the scriptures say.They are a witness.

I have studied the scriptures much more than most.I am not a mystic in the least.I know what they say and what is their purpose.When I make a statement it is NEVER adversarial.There have been many lies spread for many centuries about the true nature of God.That is the nature of man.To be religious.I understand that very well having had that affliction.I am a man.But I am no longer a child.I have had those those childish ways put away and see clearly in the mirror.If I said I didn't I would be lying.

I have no desire to argue with anyone and I won't so that is my only answer to all those reading this thread to know why I won't answer their foolish questions of ignorance.There is no reason to say anything unless it is the truth.Everything else is just foolish religion...belief about nothing.Empty words in book that can't be understood by the carnal mind at all.

BTW... this was not directed at you Lazarus.I hear the truth in things you write.There's is much value in that.It denies ignorance which is the whole point of this site....and there is much ignorance here.Especially in this section.Like I said I don't come here to argue .Only to write what I hear.I know it will fall on deaf ears.The servant is not above his master.

reply to post by Rex282

He was constantly being harassed by the religious asking him questions trying to trap him in his answers to condemn him.Yet he never asked the ignorant questions(well once after they tried to corner him).He knew their hearts.These are the signs of what the scriptures say.They are a witness.

I have studied the scriptures much more than most.I am not a mystic in the least.I know what they say and what is their purpose.When I make a statement it is NEVER adversarial.There have been many lies spread for many centuries about the true nature of God.That is the nature of man.To be religious.I understand that very well having had that affliction.I am a man.But I am no longer a child.I have had those those childish ways put away and see clearly in the mirror.If I said I didn't I would be lying.

From your posts, it sounds like you've had some terrible experience with religion or religious people. Many on ATS have, but not all religious people or churches are like the Pharisees, where they never practiced what they preached and were doing evil and committing sin behind the scenes.

True religion isn't about traditions or practices being more important than God. I myself have a problem with certain practices in different churches, so I stay clear of them, but that shouldn't take away from all religion.

I enjoy studying the scriptures and I feel that it's an important way to understand the nature of God. Unfortunately, I don't believe his nature is entirely the way you want it or expect it to be, so you prefer to stay away from them.

Once again, I don't WORSHIP scripture. I use it as a guide. I have a personal relationship with God outside of what I read. I would never have survived without him. I am eternally grateful to him and would always prefer to do his will over my own. I see where my will got me.

Do you believe that God from the Old Testament is the same as God of the New Testament? They are both God and show two/both sides of his nature. Most would prefer to ignore that.

You say that you know what the purpose of scripture is for. What do you believe it is?

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Some of us like to study words, compare languages, and scriptures. Others prefer a direct, even mystical connection to God.

The scriptures do not condone mysticism for reasons that many will become deceived by it. Some of the Pharisees were having visions that they claimed were coming from God, when God said that they were not coming from him. This is why he told them to stop it. Their visions were not coming from him, but from others.

Personally, that's why I believe the scriptures are important. Many people on ATS are having visions of their own and are claiming things from God that are totally contradictory to his words in the Bible. I believe we're supposed to use scripture as a measuring stick to weed out that which is possibly false. I don't believe God would leave us with nothing to measure ones words against. I also don't believe that if it feels good or sounds right, then it must be right. We're supposed to use both our hearts and our minds in deciphering information. The Bible says we can't totally trust our minds alone, nor our hearts alone, so we should use both together.

No one is perfect and we will all be judged. Whether or not we believe hell is temporary or permanent isn't going to affect our standing with God, unless we're going against his will and sinning in order to justify our own beliefs.

reply to post by Deetermined


I have stated myself that the Bible is a reference standard of truth. As for mysticism, perhaps it was a bad word choice.

I didn't have a"traumatic " incident with a religious experience it was many experiences all leading me to come out of it(Babylon)Religion is worship..belief.What you worship is what you believe and what you believe is what you worship.The scriptures are a witness of the Truth.They are not a guideline of how to live.There are no formulas in it at all.Those who follow it as such worship it because they believe the words literally have power like a mystical incantation then they fall into the ditch which leads to a pit.

That is what Yahoshua was saying about falling into the ditch and the wide path and many other things.The religious carnal mind wants to set up guidelines to follow so they create laws to "believe" in which becomes "their" God.They interpret the words to fit their theory to set themselves up as God and use God as a prop.They are completely deceived that they believe in THE God when in reality they "believe"(worship) the words.That is Babylon....babel..the confusion of language.

Everything in the scriptures themselves have multiple levels of meaning and are types and shadows.HOWEVER they are not "doctrines" to be applied to life like a manual.They are only a witness to The Truth and the truth is man cannot live by those words they are the letters that kill as Paul observed so accurately .He knew this experience more than anyone.He said he was the chiefest of sinners(The most imperfect man).If you believe the scriptures he said it under inspiration of spirit so it was not hyperbole.Why was he so sinful.Because he was the most studied of the scriptures and he completely twisted them to fit his personal agenda.Making himself GOD.He became "an" abomination that makes desolate sitting on the throne of God claiming to be God.Just as all men will do to varying degrees and circumstances.

Did he know this ..NO.That is the depth of the pit.The religious think they are serving God when in fact it is the opposite.Paul was chosen specifically because of this.His imperfection is embedded in his writings.His pharisaical nature of laws and ordinances while at the same time proclaiming freedom from them...and he was....however salvation is a process not an event.He experienced some very intense reality checks over and over and over.God was judging(correcting through refining) him in this realm of the valley of the shadow of death as the worst sinner ever.THAT is what he was saying to emulate in him.... submit to the REFINING not his pharisaical nature of word worship.

That is the flip side to the scriptures..what is written..And ironically it is in the scripture prophetically witnessing to that process.Just as in the Old covenant the religious mind gravitates toward laws and ordinances not to cleanse but to justify by laws.Those old testament figures were examples of what doesn't work.The Israelites were chosen not because they were a good nation but the opposite...and they became worse(btw modern day Israel is not Israel in the least)

There are billions of folks that cherry pick the scriptures to do the same thing.It's like cherry picking a physics equation to make life.It isn't going to work and will it most cases produce disastrous results.The whole equation must be summed and the scriptures are not the complete equation... the equation is infinite and only Gods knows it and can sum it..That is the futility.

The scriptures are not a guideline.They can only be understood if the the "true" author reveals what that part of the equation means.However that is not Gods method at all.He is weaning mankind OFF the milk of the word(babylon) to LIVE in the Living Word.To KNOW God..Be at one with him.Commune.Words are shadows of the reality.They can only be believed never known.They are vapor with no real substance.The Living word is solid everything else is an illusion.Our whole perspective of the material universe is an illusion.Nothing is solid.That is a known fact.

These are only shadows of reality.It is why Yahoshua cannot be understood by what he said.His words cannot be followed as a guideline they were not spoken to be.He clearly said my words are SPIRIT(solid life) and truth.And of course the many will disagree and worship the words and NOT the creator and think it is the same thing.Nothing could be further from the Truth.

No one will "know" God until Gods wills them to.God is NOT words written in a book.Never was never will be.What is "written" is all just part of the process of salvation.God is not a simpleton and neither is his creation simple.

reply to post by Rex282

Everything in the scriptures themselves have multiple levels of meaning and are types and shadows.HOWEVER they are not "doctrines" to be applied to life like a manual.They are only a witness to The Truth and the truth is man cannot live by those words they are the letters that kill as Paul observed so accurately .He knew this experience more than anyone.He said he was the chiefest of sinners(The most imperfect man).If you believe the scriptures he said it under inspiration of spirit so it was not hyperbole.Why was he so sinful.Because he was the most studied of the scriptures and he completely twisted them to fit his personal agenda.Making himself GOD.He became "an" abomination that makes desolate sitting on the throne of God claiming to be God.Just as all men will do to varying degrees and circumstances.

So according to you, Paul was a great liar but somehow God forced him to write one thing that was true, which is that reading whatever he wrote would kill you.
I think this says enough about your cynical attitude toward the Bible, that it is just a data dump for you to mine to extract little tidbits from to make it look like the Bible supports your theories, all the while believing none of it, except what makes it to you unquestionably false.

reply to post by Rex282


I'm going to be perfectly honest in my opinion here, and yes, it is my opinion only.

I see many people on ATS claiming that they believe in Jesus, but I don't understand what it is they TRULY believe. We all know that Satan believes in Jesus too, but what does Christ expect of us as "believers in Christ" is the question we should be asking ourselves.

Is it enough to say to ourselves, "I believe (or was told) that God picked me (and everyone else) and that's all I need to know"?

As the scriptures tell us, should we not also know why Jesus came here, what his death on the cross truly represented, that we should repent and sin not, love God and others, be a witness unto him, be fruitful, and to be continually seeking and watching for him?

Are these things not important to you?

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying about scripture and trying to use it and your definition of "worship" as a weapon in order to justify something that you don't want to come to terms with. (Just my gut feeling.)

We don't "worship" our beliefs or scripture. We worship God because prayer and scripture help to enhance our beliefs and faith, not to mention the many blessings that God bestows upon us throughout our lives.

I know you are being sincere in your belief.The fact is you are blinded by religion.Every thought you write is proof of that.I am not condemning you for anything.I am not your judge.Everyone must go through the process and believe religion.(a vicious cycle).This realm(age) is all belief.What you don't and can't know is all the religious rhetoric you wrote has no meaning.You assume what I know and have no idea what I do know.It is you that believe in another "Jesus" and have proved that over and over by your statements of your belief in the doctrines of men.

By your statements you do not know God is 100% in control of everything yet you believe you have free will.Those two statements are 100% incompatible.You have no knowledge of why because you can only believe.You will continue to justify your religious carnal mind of what you believe by what you "believe" are facts however they aren't.It is only a vicious cycle.You believe because .....you believe.

This is exactly what the heathens see very clearly about religion-religion but the religious can't.Of course they do the same with secular-religion and there are a multitude of permutations.You believe I don't believe in your Jesus and you are right.I don't believe in your Jesus at all for a very good reason.He isn't real.It is figment of the religious carnal minds imagination.

As I stated I don't believe in your Jesus however I do know Yahoshua and I don't believe in him at all.I only know Yahoshua.I didn't come to this knowing by choice.I didn't choose to know him.He chose to know me.There is no sound logical reason why that I know of.However it is impossible for me to say it isn't true....
and yes I know this is all foolishness to you as it should be.That is how the good news works.It is foolishness to the religious carnal mind that is at enmity with God and is perishing.You may have been taken out of the church organization but not out of Babylon.Again I am not condemning you.I have been there.I empathize.On retrospect it was a very unpleasant state of being that I did not see while in it...only glimpses and whispers (metaphors)calling me to come out.

You and the many are still in it either have no desire to escape or think you have escaped.The great whore of Babylon is riding your backs.John's vision of this is the metaphor.The whole book of Revelation is metaphorically about the salvation of the many are called(everyone!!) by Yahoshua..The unveiling of Yahoshua the Mashiach...not the religious nonsense the many believe.

Again...the words of the scripture are meaningless to those that can't hear.They cannot save anyone.They don't make anyone righteous and it is not a manual to follow.It is a witness.The testimony of Yahoshua IS the spirit of prophecy.

I understand your condition very well.I empathize greatly.Even though I did not exhibit the same symptoms.However..there is good news. You will be cured.As everyone will be cured regardless of your beliefs.The bad news for you now is .... not now.You cannot know The Truth until the Truth sets you free THEN you will be free indeed.It is not a choice you make.It is being chosen.

This is a fascinating argument and one I have struggled with personally through out my life. I remember reading in a compendium of religions that among the Jews there were different sects with different views on the nature of eternal life and hell. One such group (the name of the sect has escaped me over time) believed that Hell is a sort of a place of purifying, and that wicked people only go there for a time to be purified of their more animal instincts and base natures. The idea (as I remember it) was that everyone who was wicked would be there until they had done their time (so to speak), at which point they would exist in a sort of purgatory with everyone else until the new earth/world was created. At this point, the wicked would get to live with everyone else on the new earth, but the most wicked would fill the lowliest positions in that new society, and the most righteous the most glorious.

I know that the Qabbalist's also believe something similar, but rather than an individual being punished in hell for eternity, they divide the soul up into various parts. The notion being that the higher and more noble parts of a persons soul return to God and the higher realms, and the lower more animal nature of the person/soul exists in a sort of hellish void. Interestingly enough, this theory sort of explains how some hauntings work, as they believe residual hauntings to be a mindless part of the soul which is left behind and did not ascend with the rest of the soul due to trauma.

I found that to be quite an interesting idea, and I think if we want to examine the issue from a Christian perspective, we need to first examine Jewish ideas and beliefs since the latter preceded the former. Is anyone in the discussion more learned about Jewish notions of the after life? I know most of us know the difference between Pharisees and Sadducees but there are other entire systems of belief within Judaism with unique opinions and thoughts. Given that Christ was a Jew, should we not be examining some of those other opinions in conjunction with scripture?

reply to post by DeadSeraph

Given that Christ was a Jew, we should be examining some of those other opinions in conjunction with scripture.

Modern Judaism, I don't think, is any help in figuring out what Jesus believed since it has been influenced by Christianity over the centuries.
The old testament believed in a gathering to their ancestors upon death.
Jesus pretty much nullified the common belief of his time by saying that he had the ability to resurrect anyone and at any time.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I'm not sure if that is entirely accurate. The belief in a resurrection was held by many jews of his day as part of events surrounding the Day of the Lord. I don't think Jesus was necessarily nullifying any of the traditions or beliefs of his people, but rather identifying himself by declaring authority that was God's exclusively. That in itself is an interesting debate (the whole fulfillment of the law vs destruction of the law), but I think it's clear from the NT that he was using that declaration of authority to identify himself as the Messiah that the prophets had written about before him, rather than declaring those traditions to be nullified. Although I suppose the reason the sanhedrin demanded his execution in the first place is because they probably shared your interpretation of his declarations.

reply to post by DeadSeraph

That in itself is an interesting debate . . .

I think so, and would be a good topic for a thread, but I don't think it is on topic so much for this one.
I think that this is one mainly about if we are eternally doomed somehow or get destroyed eventually, if we are bad.

reply to post by Rex282


Why don't you explain for us how, when and where Yahoshua came to you and found you.

www.spiritofthescripture.com...

Consider a quote from the Zohar, a mystical work studied intensely by Jewish sages.

“The narratives of the doctrine are its cloak. The simple look only at the garment—that is, upon the narrative of the doctrine; more they know not. The instructed, however, see not merely the cloak, but what the cloak covers.”

—The Zohar

Read more: www.spiritofthescripture.com...

Though some people end up facing the time out and horrible things they have done to others, for we're not off the hook, and if you ritually murder a child who experiences torture, you will not like where you're going, and what you may experience, because things don't just get cleaned up quickly and easily, though the level and degree depends on faith and understanding the lessons, and Family able to mitigate things.

But in the end, ALL make it home. We all come in with the bungee cord. The school serves the student/child, children are not fodder for the school.

How do you tell, LOVE. You have 2 witnesses, Love and Wisdom, that if you don't bend them out shape via being programmed into impossible things: God kills, God wants blood sacrifice, things that are not God and never were God, but instead a demiurge, if your Love recoils pay attention.

Christ didn't come to form a religion.

Those who wrote the scriptures didn't write them to form a religion.

Its what is under the hood that matters.

Inner seeking, versus outer seeking.

Example: Paul refers to Moses and crossing the red sea, for a symbol of baptism.

When Moses spoke to the people, who were apparently being pursued by Egyptian armies, he said: (paraphrased): ----trust in God (yeah though I walk through the dark valley.....)

---Man of peace, be still and know God (hmmm....be still instead of run across the barren ocean floor....???)

Well, the Red Sea is Anger, Reaction, Your Body Suit Reactions, Retaliation, Fights, Wars even.

The Egyptian army is what assails you within and without. (note when you pray, meditate, and seek within, in time you drown out the assailiants that try to block your progression and overcome the reactions you have towards others, and so gain conscience free will choice in how to respond).

Man of Peace (all who wish to overcome their instincts to argue or fight or retaliate and all who wish to stop the inner assaults and outer assaults), Be Still, Be Water my friend, and Meditate. The Waters of Meditation.

Where did Jacob meet God, in the city of his penial: Genesis 32 30.

Now here is the thing. GOD LOVES YOU, and will never forsake you, while you work with God to overcome all your evil and negativity inside you.

The world is a but a mirror of your inner processes.

So God doesnt smite evil doers or we'd not be standing, God works with you...

But lets see how Rome and the Dark Hats who formed concrete fundamental religions want you to see this.

They want you to ignore the two Witnesses Love and Wisdom, within, and believe that there was real army (note armies are usually just young men obeying their king or they would die, just like our armies today, you know all those young kids we send over to Iraq or Afghanistan, just like them), and that God covered them in water, killed whoever He wishes.

Because God is not Love as you understood, oh no, you need to see the Dualistic Two Headed God.

Uh....NO YOU DON't.

The outer turns God into something else indeed. As was their intention when they packaged it up for the masses.

PERIOD!

reply to post by Unity_99

Example: Paul refers to Moses and crossing the red sea, for a symbol of baptism.

You are probably referring to 1 Corinthians 10:2,
They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
(2011 NIV)
It seems to me that Paul was using symbolism going in the other direction, with the familiar Christian baptism (with the church members that he was addressing) being used as a context to explain what the Israelites of the story had gone through.
Paul was saying that being part of a community of the "saved" was no guarantee against failure and death. The specific issue that the point was being made about was the Corinthians being rather lax in their affiliation with pagan practices, as if they couldn't be affected by it.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Rex282

 

Why don't you explain for us how, when and where Yahoshua came to you and found you.

I will answer you if you tell me reasonably how, what,and why I tell you will benefit you.

reply to post by Rex282


It's about understanding.

It will help me and anyone else who's reading this thread to understand how and why our views/beliefs could possibly be so different as they both relate to God/Jesus.

reply to post by Deetermined

. . . why our views/beliefs could possibly be so different as they both relate to God/Jesus.

Look at Rex's avatar, with the detail of Da Vinci's painting of the Sistine Chapel ceiling.
He believes his own imaginings are the direct gift from Go's mind, given directly to him without a mediator.
While "the others" (his term for the lowly common people) like us have to do things like read the Bible.