humanity punished in eternal hell? Theology

reply to post by Deetermined


First, since I know that God is the savior of ALL men, those mentioned by Peter in the verses you quoted must be saved too, but after punishment, purification, and correction.

Second, "forever" or "forever and ever" are not correct - they should be understood as "age-long," as they are based on terms referring to indefinite, but not endless spans of time. Where Damnationists see an eternity of punishment in Hellfire, I see an age-long purification and correction in the Lake of Fire. Does God not refer to Himself as a refining fire? Does He not speak of us being refined in the fire as gold and silver, while the dross of chaff, wood, hay, and stubble are burned away? When this dross is burned away, the once-unrepentant wicked person will be declared pure, will be glorified, and will be ushered into the Kingdom. That is how God becomes All in all. Eternal torment in hell makes this impossible, yet God declares that it will happen, so ET must be untrue.

Thanks once again LS.It is refreshing to see someone at ATS deny ignorance.Again you are correct.There is no way around this fact.However another fact is the scriptures will not prove to anyone that the eternal punishment of hell is false.However the scriptures are the evidence to those that believe the doctrine of eternal punishment of hell is true.That is the purpose of the scriptures.That is all it can do.The scriptures can only be believed but they are not they "way" God's nature/character are known.

The only way anyone can know the Truth is if it is revealed by God just as it was to Peter and all the disciples.The religious mind cannot understand God at all. It is at enmity with God.All it can perceive is religion.They will argue incessantly about doctrines but can never come to the true knowledge of God.They worship(believe) words instead of knowing the Living God.

The character of God goes against every doctrine of hell yet "the many are called" see the judgement of hell as his character.No one can KNOW that Yahoshua IS the savior of ALL mankind unless it is revealed to them by God and only God.They cannot be taught only told the Truth.The roots of the eternal punishment of hell is pagan not scriptural.This evidence is all very easily discoverable yet they won't listen but desire the doctrines of men.

The litmus test is always knowing Yahoshua is Gods salvation.The savior of ALL.It is impossible for Yahoshua to not save EVERYTHING.That is his nature.There are billions that deny his name while "saying" Lord Lord didn't we do MANY great works in YOUR name YET he will say ..I NEVER KNEW you.This is a prime example of Yahoshua talking directly to the religious and them being stone deaf.They think "the bible" is talking to someone else...like me and Lazarus Short.Yet we don't deny the sovereignty of Gods salvation.

The bottom line is...it is all very simple.The religious mind does not desrire a relationship of knowing God.For now they can only "believe " religion.God has given them over to a strong delusion that they will believe a lie.They cannot see the obvious contradiction in their belief even when it is clearly and unbiasedly presented to them as the Truth.I have posted the following scriptures that are evidence in the scriptures that Yahoshua IS the savior of all and no one has ever answered it in truth of how this doesn't mean Yahoshua is the savior of ALL. ...and none will because ...they can't.

here are just a few.

1 Cor 15:22For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

Philp 2:9 God also has highly exalted him, and given him a NAME (Yahoshua... God is salvation) which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus(Yahoshua) EVERY knee will bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Heb. 2:9 "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours ONLY but also for the sins of the WHOLE world."

1Timothy 2:3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God OUR Savior;Who WILL have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL WILL come to repentance."

Titus 2:11 The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN."

1 John 4:14 We have seen, and do testify, that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior(Yahoshua) of the WORLD."

1 John 2:2.he (Yahoshua) "is" the sacrifice for our sins, and NOT for ours only but ALSO for the WHOLE world

1 Tim. 4:9-11 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach."

John 12:47And if any man hear my words, and BELIEVE not, I judge him NOT: for I came NOT TO JUDGE the world, but to SAVE the world.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
reply to post by Deetermined

 

First, since I know that God is the savior of ALL men, those mentioned by Peter in the verses you quoted must be saved too, but after punishment, purification, and correction.

Second, "forever" or "forever and ever" are not correct - they should be understood as "age-long," as they are based on terms referring to indefinite, but not endless spans of time. Where Damnationists see an eternity of punishment in Hellfire, I see an age-long purification and correction in the Lake of Fire. Does God not refer to Himself as a refining fire? Does He not speak of us being refined in the fire as gold and silver, while the dross of chaff, wood, hay, and stubble are burned away? When this dross is burned away, the once-unrepentant wicked person will be declared pure, will be glorified, and will be ushered into the Kingdom. That is how God becomes All in all. Eternal torment in hell makes this impossible, yet God declares that it will happen, so ET must be untrue.

Yes this "twsiting of words"can all be traced back to babel.The confusion of language (words).Eternity is aion...age lasting.Hell is hades.... the grave... the realm of the dead ...the realm of imperception.The root meaning of torment is touchstone....how gold is "tested" for purity.These "descriptions" are metaphorical in nature....things that "words" cannot fully explain.

reply to post by borntowatch


Premise is correct...'hell' is not eternal, except where that hell is entertained by paperfolded notions...see the bardo experience...

...any, and all personages created through a paperfolding technique, and passed on through the generations, solidifies its existence...reperio in action...creation...

The Little Golden Book used to peddle the paperfolding instructions should be quoted with more discrimination...or hardly quoted at all, given its borrowed heritage...satan lol

Å99

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
reply to post by Deetermined

 

First, since I know that God is the savior of ALL men, those mentioned by Peter in the verses you quoted must be saved too, but after punishment, purification, and correction.

Second, "forever" or "forever and ever" are not correct - they should be understood as "age-long," as they are based on terms referring to indefinite, but not endless spans of time. Where Damnationists see an eternity of punishment in Hellfire, I see an age-long purification and correction in the Lake of Fire. Does God not refer to Himself as a refining fire? Does He not speak of us being refined in the fire as gold and silver, while the dross of chaff, wood, hay, and stubble are burned away? When this dross is burned away, the once-unrepentant wicked person will be declared pure, will be glorified, and will be ushered into the Kingdom. That is how God becomes All in all. Eternal torment in hell makes this impossible, yet God declares that it will happen, so ET must be untrue.

If this is true then there is no need to serve God at all. Man can do what he wants knowing that in the end God will release them from their torments. I think that sends the wrong message to believers and is a very dangerous teaching. Jesus made it clear that the punishment is eternal.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

I would read it in my mind to mean something like this:

Don't fear men who can kill your physical body, but cannot kill the living, breathing person that you are, for you will be resurrected. However, do fear God, who has the power to kill your physical body as men do, but Who can also destroy your living, breathing personhood as well.

I don't think that your translation explains away anything.
The word here in the verse, the Greek word from which we get the English word psyche, means basically your soul. And your way of interpreting it means basically the same thing, your soul. I think what you are playing to is a fallacy that would-be translators often fall into which is to look at a Greek compound word and try to split it up into its components, then define each separately, then put those two definitions back together to come up with something that the word doesn't mean. Definitions are made from the word's usage, not its etymology.
What you seem to be making is the point that both your body, and your soul, only exist as long as they are "breathing", which does not hold up, except in you little made-up world of definitions.

My Ferrar Fenton Version uses "pit" instead of "hell." I think Fenton is one of the few honest modern translators.

You were the one just earlier warning me about being let astray by "scholars". At least the ones that I consult are in the mainstream, while you seem to go out of your way to choose ones who fit with your preconceived ideas.

The Damnationists will interpret Matthew 10:28 to suit their view, and the Eternal Destructionists will as well.

It should be clear enough that Jesus meant that there was another sort of death beyond the one in this world, otherwise, what in the world was he talking about? You say what you think he was not talking about, but what was he talking about, then?

I don't have a theological, or even a theo-illogical ax to grind.

That's not how it looks to me.
And btw, Seventh Day Adventists are not universalists.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Well, I just flat don't believe you concerning the Timothy letters.

No serious biblical scholar is going to see your "proof-text" as having much merit, just based on the source, but even people who are of the more ignorant fundamentalist sort are not going to see it as saying what you wish that it does.
One of the main definitions for the word translated as "all" in you verse is: every kind of.
The word translated as "people" is anthrópos, which means: a man.
So a literal translation could easily be "every kind of man", which would fit the context.
You are stretching the meanings to fit some context that you dreamt up, where the real context is a saying about how it is that we work so hard to be good, which is the hope of salvation.
Why would anyone go to that much trouble if they believed that everyone was going to saved whether they are good in this life or not?

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

. Jesus made it clear that the punishment is eternal.

I wont argue that hell exists and justice outside of God is punishment.
Outside of Christ the law of the OT still stands and will be used to judge those outside of Christ.
Jesus wouldnt need to die if everyone received salvation automatically.

Anyway where does Jesus say hell is eternal for humanity

Rex, thank you for your support and an excellent post! As to this quote of yours: “…the scriptures will not prove to anyone that the eternal punishment of hell is false.However the scriptures are the evidence to those that believe the doctrine of eternal punishment of hell is true.That is the purpose of the scriptures.That is all it can do.The scriptures can only be believed but they are not they "way" God's nature/character are known.” I agree – the man from whom I learned UR said that the Bible appears to teach all three, eternal torment, eternal destruction, and universal reconciliation. Few will find it on their own, and most of the time, God must reveal it to them.

RealTruthSeeker, I think your post: “If this is true then there is no need to serve God at all. Man can do what he wants knowing that in the end God will release them from their torments. I think that sends the wrong message to believers and is a very dangerous teaching. Jesus made it clear that the punishment is eternal.” You are entirely correct that it is a wrong message and very dangerous. We will pay in some way or other for our misdeeds, but we should do good things out of Love, not the fear of Hell. Please quote Jesus to prove that punishment is eternal.

Borntowatch, I must disagree with this: “Jesus wouldnt need to die if everyone received salvation automatically.” You have the cart before the horse – the sacrificial death of Jesus made salvation possible. Your statement is true on the face of it, but is salvation really automatic? What ever happened to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”?

reply to post by borntowatch


I put up a list where Jesus talks about the kind of punishment men will receive on page 2. The one below is a good one too. Notice how Jesus separates the righteous from the unrighteous when He makes His return.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I don't believe there is any other way to interpret this parable. The words "everlasting" and "eternal" are both present.

I looked at a few different translations to see how they translate, I use the NKJV here are some others

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (NIV)
46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life. (ASV)
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (NASB)
46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (RSV)

The fire is everlasting, I agree.
Where does it say the punishment for humanity is, for demons yes.
I dont think its that clear

Oops re read it Will look and read more and consider what you have said.
Seems water tight there

reply to post by Rex282

1 Cor 15:22For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

Yes, we already know that all will be made alive in order to face judgement, but what does the "second death" mean to you? Why is the second death to be feared?

Philp 2:9 God also has highly exalted him, and given him a NAME (Yahoshua... God is salvation) which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus(Yahoshua) EVERY knee will bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The translation in my Bible says that every knee "should" bow, but it doesn't say they will.

Heb. 2:9 "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours ONLY but also for the sins of the WHOLE world."

Once again, we already know that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, but will EVERYONE accept Jesus for having done so? Does acceptance and repentance not matter?

1Timothy 2:3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God OUR Savior;Who WILL have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

This was a prayer that Paul told them they should pray. It doesn't say that God will do it, but that we should pray for all men to be saved.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL WILL come to repentance."

Of course it's not God's will for anyone to perish, but aren't you suggesting that God exert his will over free will here? I don't think God's willing to do that.

Titus 2:11 The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN."

Once again, let's talk about "acceptance" of that.

1 Tim. 4:9-11 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of ALL MEN, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach."

This is the best scripture to support what you're saying so far and it deserves more study.

John 12:47And if any man hear my words, and BELIEVE not, I judge him NOT: for I came NOT TO JUDGE the world, but to SAVE the world.

That was Jesus' mission while he was here on earth, but here's what it says about his second coming and return...

Revelation 19:11

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Of course it's not God's will for anyone to perish, but aren't you suggesting that God exert his will over free will here? I don't think God's willing to do that.

So tell me, do you worship a sovereign God, Whose Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven, or do you worship the will of Man? The Free Will of Man, and God's deference to it, is a human invention. In effect, you are suggesting that the clay can dictate to the potter - absurd!

reply to post by Lazarus Short


In case you didn't notice from the Bible, this earth is going to be destroyed by fire due to corruption and will be replaced with a new heaven/earth. That's when God's will is accomplished. It wasn't in God's plan for his will to take presidence over ours on this earth as we know it today.

reply to post by Deetermined

The translation in my Bible says that every knee "should" bow, but it doesn't say they will.

That may be a bit of an oversimplification.
It is correct that the word in verse 10 for "bow", as in bending the knee, is in the subjunctive, but it is connected to the word in verse 9 where "the name above all others" is given, so that the thing that is dependent on that earlier action is the bending.

name given → knees bending

So, thinking that it means that bending is optional is wrong.
What it is trying to show is the purpose for the exaltation of Jesus' status in relation to the inhabitants of the world.

reply to post by Deetermined

In case you didn't notice from the Bible, this earth is going to be destroyed by fire due to corruption and will be replaced with a new heaven/earth.

Which is in 2 Peter which is most likely a later forgery not actually written by Peter.
It looks like it is describing the evil works of the world being swept away and is using the analogy of the flood in Genesis, but using fire instead, as being maybe a more apt symbolism for wrath.
Just as there was still an earth after the flood, there will be still the same earth here after this cleansing being metaphorically described.

That's when God's will is accomplished.

God's will is to have us behaving in a more righteous sort of way than we were before Jesus was sent to this earth.

It wasn't in God's plan for his will to take precedence over ours on this earth as we know it today.

You seem to be saying that God wants Satan to run rampant over the earth to make things actually worse.
Sorry, but I do not agree. In the Gospel of John, Jesus said that he had already judged Satan, so why the further destruction, as if God still has to prove that following Satan leads only to evil?

reply to post by Deetermined


The context of what is being said is the meaning of the word.Being in the presence of God does not give an option of your meaning of "should".It is AT the name of Yahoshua every knee will bow (metaphor) and tongue confess(metaphor)before God.A name is the nature of the thing or person named.Yahoshua is Gods salvation.That is what EVERYTHING will acquiesce to.ALL will be saved.All WILL know who God is because God is 100% in control of everything.

To believe that Gods will can be overthrown is to be ignorant of the Truth.Nothing can resist Gods will.The scriptural evidence of that is just (if not more)as abundant as Yahoshua being the savior of all .Your semantic argument is baseless.All of these scriptures clearly state Yahoshua IS the savior of ALL mankind.To believe that mans will can thwarts Gods will is foolishness of the highest order.

Paul says nothing in that scripture being a prayer of petition(which is also evidence that you know nothing of what prayer is) and even if it were it does not change what it means.You are arguing from a strawman proposition.Paul is making a statement.

Repentance is change.All men will "change"..and God is the one that changes them not man.Men do not and cannot make themselves righteous in any shape or form.Those that believe they do are completely deluded and know nothing of the Truth.They can do NOTHING without God .God is 1000% responsible for ALL aspects of salvation... man can only receive.

When you believe Yahoshua will not save ALL you are proclaiming he is not the savior and failed miserably in his purpose to SAVE the world and not judge it when he will only save "some".In essence you do not believe on his name "God is salvation" at all you only believe in a religious figure Jesus.This is the other Jesus Paul spoke of that the many are called believe in but do not know at all.They are on the wide path of religion that leads to destruction.

The crux of the matter is man does not have free will.That is not in the scriptures at all nor is it logical if there is a sovereign God.Free will is not the ability to make choices.Everyone makes a multitude of choices and NONE of them are free of causation.God is sovereign.God is the causation of everything.It is impossible for him not to be.That means nothing is free of causation including mankind's will.Man does not choose God God chooses and he will choose everyone according to HIS will and purposes in their own order.In this age or the ones to come.

The book of Revelation is written in symbols and is about one thing .The unveiling of Yahoshua(God IS salvation) .Yahoshua is not returning as the many are called religious believe he is.Yahoshua has already returned and is here and not in human form.I'll say it again(and you won't hear)Revelation is symbolic NONE of it is predictions of past present or future historical events.

If you are waiting for a literal return of the man Jesus on a white horse you will die before that ever happens and so will everyone else because it is not going to happen.Yahoshua has been here in the earthly realm since Pentecost.He is the comforter .He is preparing the "homes" of the kingdom of God.Some in honor(the few) some in dishonor(the many are called).Yet EVERYONE will be saved as by fire..

Salvation is a process not an event.NO ONES salvation is complete and none will "lose" their salvation.It is just not given and or received yet in this realms (age)Some(few) will begin to enter in through this realm.The majority (like the many are called religious) will not.They are blinded by religion to believe they are already saved by their works of religion.They must be cleansed by the Lake of Fire which many believe is hell but is not... but is the consuming fire of God himself!That is the sole purpose of that false doctrine.The many are called sense of justice is so perverted God has given them a strong delusion to believe a lie and is using that to cure them.

The salvation of all is VERY clearly in the scriptures but the religious mind cannot know or even believe it.If you disapprove of the scriptures which clearly states over and over Yahoshuas character and that he is the savior of ALL men then you cannot believe the scriptures and you will not even believe if a man(Yahoshua) rises from the dead.You have fulfilled in yourself the parable of the rich man and Lazarus .[

reply to post by Rex282

...and none will because ...they can't.

here are just a few.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

"All" in this verse is an adjective.
The word that it modifies is "shall be made alive" which is a single word in the Greek, which is a verb in the future tense, and in the third person, plural. There is no noun or pronoun or article that would make it mean "all of you" specifically, where you do see those things in other places that use the word pantes meaning "all", where it clearly means "all of you".
So what you end up with is a sentence that is saying that:

. . . all the "making people alive" is done through Christ.

So, I just answered (in this post and others in this thread) the verses that you gave that seemed to me to maybe make the best argument for your theory.
Which makes your claim false, that no one can answer them, because someone can by just reading it in the original Greek, rather than your favorite translation or whatever.

reply to post by Rex282

To believe that mans will can thwarts Gods will is foolishness of the highest order.

No one ever said that man was capable of thwarting God's will. What I said was that it was not God's will that he force everyone to follow him, accept him, or worship him. That is their choice to make, which God willed for them to make themselves.

reply to post by Rex282

Paul says nothing in that scripture being a prayer of petition(which is also evidence that you know nothing of what prayer is) and even if it were it does not change what it means.You are arguing from a strawman proposition.Paul is making a statement.

Read the context surrounding the verse you quoted.

1 Timothy 2:1-3

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;