Dambusters to disband

www.bbc.co.uk...

It has been announced that 617 squadron, the Dambusters, will disband on 1 April 2014 as the process of withdrawing the Tornado from service begins.

The squadron will reform in 2016 on the F-35B Lightning. Worryingly, for me, the article states there will be ONE other Lightning squadron (almost certainly 800 Sqn IMO). This surely cannot be right?

Then again, it says the RAF's first Lightning was the EE Lightning of 1960, the BBC being apparently unaware that the RAF christened the Lockheed P-38 as the Lightning, a name that stuck on both sides of the Atlantic, during WW2, so hopefully they have that wrong too.

Here is the link to the RAF website where they say 'next', rather than 'other' squadron.

www.raf.mod.uk...

Even from across in the Midwest I felt the sting. I've never heard
four Merlins at once, and felt a little cheated so far... but the men
that few the Lancs even more deserve our thanks and respect always.
Thank you for the notice, and I Do want to get to Hamilton someday:
just to marvel as an old tool maker at something so large done all right.

Here is a little pictorial tribute to 617 from me, taken at Waddington two weeks ago

Originally posted by waynos
Then again, it says the RAF's first Lightning was the EE Lightning of 1960, the BBC being apparently unaware that the RAF christened the Lockheed P-38 as the Lightning, a name that stuck on both sides of the Atlantic, during WW2, so hopefully they have that wrong too.

but none of the P-38 Lightning's for the British were ever delivered - they were all taken over by the US after Pearl Harbour - so, strictly speaking the EEC Lightning was the first aircraft with such a name actually used by the RAF.

RAF test pilots had test flown the a/c in Burbank, and in 1942 the US lent 3 Lightnings to the British Aircraft and Armament Experimental Establishment, and the Royal aircraft Establishment for testing, but they were returned later that same year and in 1943.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


They were never delivered to the squadrons, but when the order was placed, the name Lightning was given to the aircraft by the Air Ministry.

The aircraft AE978, AF105 and AF106 were taken on charge by the RAF and tested at Boscombe down before being sent back to the USA. These were the first Lightnings in the RAF.

I dont know if you are inferring that the US took over the British order after Pearl Harbour due to priority, that is how it reads, but thats not correct.

The RAF rejected the Lightning so the aircraft on order were going spare. This was entirely due to the fact that the RAF aircraft were specified without turbochargers and as a consequence the performance was crap.

These aircraft werent even known as P-38's by the USAAF, they became P-322's

reply to post by waynos


Yes the Aircraft and Armament Experimental Establishment they were tested by was part of the RAF - but they did not see service - they were test a/c only - hence the EE Lightning was the first Lightning in service with the RAF..

And yes I know the name was given by the British

What what boys, cheery pips and thank you for you service to king/queen and country chaps.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Yes I know, but that's not what the linked article said and those three aircraft were actually delivered to and taken on by the RAF.

Maybe I was over critical of the article as a plane buff that first saw the Lockheed Lightning in Putnams 'Aircaft of the Royal Air Force Since 1918' almost 40 years ago.

But they were still wrong

Oh, this is a sad day indeed. The Dam Busters are a storied squadron, a huge part of British military history.

reply to post by babybunnies


They will be back in 2016...............unless the F-35B gets canned and history repeats itself and we only get the three of those we have now. How ironic would that be given my exchange with gaul just now!

What about that for a prospect?

reply to post by waynos


I always haute when they disband and reform. The reformed squadron just doesn't feel the same. Almost like they have the name but none of the history.

Originally posted by waynos
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

Yes I know, but that's not what the linked article said and those three aircraft were actually delivered to and taken on by the RAF.

I don't know what you mean by "taken on" - that they had serial numbers is not important - all a/c in service have to have a serial number.

And they were on loan from the USAAF - not sold or given.

And, I repeat, they were not put into service - which is a specific operational state that they never achieved - indeed at least one of them for example had no armament.

Maybe I was over critical of the article as a plane buff that first saw the Lockheed Lightning in Putnams 'Aircaft of the Royal Air Force Since 1918' almost 40 years ago.

But they were still wrong

No - I think you are wrong because you do not understand what the difference between operating and being "in service" is.

the P-38 Lightning was never "in service" with the RAF, therefore the EEC Lightning was the first aircraft in service with the RAF with the Lightning name.

Gaul, I really don't understand why you are labouring this point, as this was not supposed to be a thread about the P-38, but maybe I can clear up a few things here.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

I don't know what you mean by "taken on" - that they had serial numbers is not important - all a/c in service have to have a serial number.

.

I meant 'taken on' simply in the way that so many other aircraft were taken on, given RAF serials and flown, albeit very briefly, by service pilots. That these were the first Lightnings flown by the RAF was my *only* point but you seem to misconstruing my original intention, which is coming up now.....

And, I repeat, they were not put into service - which is a specific operational state that they never achieved - indeed at least one of them for example had no armament.

Here you are arguing a point I never tried to make. The article I linked to simply said 'RAF's first Lightning', it made no reference to operational state, squadron use et al. I fully realise I was being anal, and there are few people around that love the EE Lightning more than me, but it was actually a more light hearted reference than a serious attempt at correction, if you read my OP it was more about hoping they were wrong about us only getting one more squadron of the F-35.

I noticed today that reference has been removed, so maybe someone else pointed it out as well?

No - I think you are wrong because you do not understand what the difference between operating and being "in service" is.

the P-38 Lightning was never "in service" with the RAF, therefore the EEC Lightning was the first aircraft in service with the RAF with the Lightning name.

I understand very well indeed, you are just arguing a point I never made. I repeat, that these were the first Lightnings flown by the RAF was my *only* point.