Snowden is the poster child for an UnEthical Generation

Originally posted by mikegrouchy

Originally posted by tothetenthpower

But trustworthy?

Yup, the man sure is. I'd rather trust the man who told me about the sheriff's crimes than the man who said nothing.

~Tenth

That is why I award him 9 out of 10.

But there is no getting around the 10th point.

What about the confidentiality agreements he signed.

In my points
I specifically credit him with seeing the larger picture,
being optimistic, and taking realistic steps, but
he did betray the trust that was placed
in him. And in a big way.

Mike

edit on 18-7-2013 by mikegrouchy because: (no reason given)

Betraying the trust of tyrants is a badge of honor.

How can you possibly get it all right and then fail on the last statement?

The only unethical people are those that put money above principles.

Its pathetic that you bring the old versus new generation to somehow make it all more convincing. Both old and new have their strong and weak points. Yes I actually respect the older generation more because overall they were authentic, more rugged, harder working, perhaps more honest, not distracted with meaningless stuff we have today. But that was yesterday and tomorrow is a new day. Things change and many times the individual is powerless to affect it.

Look at the big picture of what snowden accomplished and trash the msm bull#. They will tell you its night outside when its actually day. Although to be honest the media was not quite as hard on him as I expected.

After reading the thread title I thought you were going to say that what he did was wrong, immoral, and was related to some type of problem with his particular generation. But that is not the point you wanted to make obviously. But it got me thinking, and I came up with the following: What Snowden did in fact was to place focus on the fact that there are generations of Americans who do not stand up for their freedoms and rights.

Those who would come out and say that what he did was wrong, are the types of people who do not care about America. Why? Well on the surface what he did looks like espionage or treason, but in fact someone in his position is obligated to expose that type of information, when the rights of the people are being disregarded and neglected. If the government is doing something illegal, it is the job of ANY AMERICAN in a position to expose them, to in fact expose these injustices. So anyone who would claim that a person who did what he did is not a true American, they should look at themselves, because they are really talking about themselves, they just don't realize it.

Those who simply go along with the government and their policies, even when they are illegal, are the ones who are holding back true democracy, which is what America is supposed to be. Our Constitution was meant to limit the powers of the government. Too many people seem to think that the Constitution is there to tell the people what they can do, or whatever, when in fact the truth is that the Constitution was meant as a series of restrictions.

Restrictions for the government, not the people. The document is to ensure that the government doesn't abuse their people, but lo and behold, this is exactly what is happening. This is why what Snowden, and other leakers in the past, are attempting to get the people to realize. And of course the people who don't realize this, and who do not realize that THEY themselves are the problem, are holding America back into a system of corruption and oppression. If those people would realize and do the right thing, we would have an army of citizens that the government could not fail to listen to.

reply to post by mikegrouchy


well nsa has betrayed my trust.

Originally posted by mikegrouchy

Originally posted by tothetenthpower

But trustworthy?

Yup, the man sure is. I'd rather trust the man who told me about the sheriff's crimes than the man who said nothing.

~Tenth

That is why I award him 9 out of 10.

But there is no getting around the 10th point.

What about the confidentiality agreements he signed.

In my points
I specifically credit him with seeing the larger picture,
being optimistic, and taking realistic steps, but
he did betray the trust that was placed
in him. And in a big way.

Mike

edit on 18-7-2013 by mikegrouchy because: (no reason given)

Many people seem to confuse Trust and upholding confidentiality "agreements" (perhaps including Snowden himself if he did admit breaking any company trust).

My dear Mikey, if one has to sign an "agreement", it is no longer about trust. Non-disclusure Agreements are the anti-thesis of Trust. When an employer does not trust the employees, they are made to sign on the dotted lines. So that if they breach the agreement, they can be sued. It's an effective way to keep people silent.

when it comes to your labeling "unethical", I suppose it boils down to your definition of "ethics". What is ethical? Is keeping silent about an immoral act just because you sign something that might lead you into some legal hot soup ethical to you ...really?... seriously? Personally, I beg to disagree with you as majority of people here do... Snowden is, in fact, the poster child for those with strong sense of personal ethics and value.

I have a strong feeling your thread is meant to serve something more personal, Mike. Are you trying to justify your own inaction/silence about something unethical you have witnessed within your organization? Well, I guess you have to do what you have to do. Some may label you a poster child for a generation of Cowards, but then who's to say?

reply to post by mikegrouchy


Depends on if you are talking about the trust of the American people, or the trust of the American government. They are completely different things. Hell our government doesn't even trust us, or they wouldn't be spying on us all the time.

It is a simple fact that our government can't be trusted. So please define whose trust you are talking about?

America's fear of having valid documents. But why would Russia be expelled him from the country. If he has information that could be used to your advantage?
Whether he is in possession of documents about UFO's?
Sorry, this text has been translated by Google.

Originally posted by mikegrouchy

Originally posted by Lysistrata

Guess who's picture is soon to appear on Rolling Stone's cover - ha ha ha

I did say that he was
"the poster child of this generation"
somewhere in my post didn't I?

Oh, that's right,
it's the title of the thread.

Mike

edit on 18-7-2013 by mikegrouchy because: (no reason given)

so let me get this straight....

the entire premise of your thesis is that NOT blindly trusting a government, and intelligence establishment that is actively violating the rights of it's people makes all of us unethical?

you believe what the government, and intelligence establishment is doing is right?

you praise the man, but then you piss on him in the very next paragraph, because you PERCEIVE that his lack of trust in a corrupt establishment is somehow a failing.....

have i got that about right?

Originally posted by mikegrouchy

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by mikegrouchy

Originally posted by Metallicus
Mike,

People aren't trying to marginalize and destroy you. They are just disagreeing with you.

You say [color=gold] Snowden betrayed trust? The trust of a corrupt government, maybe, but he was protecting the trust of the people and of the Constitution he swore to uphold. That's my opinion.

So all I have to do
is consider someone "corrupt" and
that gives me license to betray any trust?

Mike

If the corruption were associated with a fiduciary responsibility then no [color=gold] you cant put ideas of loyalty above all else.....and if its corrupt on that level it probably is systemic anyway. Folks act like there is some righteous foundational truth in [color=gold] loyalty that should be addressed [color=gold] at the expense of all others. In private maybe. That's not what we are talking about here.

Exactly.
This is why he receives high marks, in my mind,
for the other 9 points.

But just because someone got 9 out of 10 right,
doesn't give them a free pass on the 10th point either.

Why is it so difficult to admit he violated trust.

Mike

What would one do if they took a security job with conditions of secrecy and then found out later there were a group of vampires living in the basement?

Milgram Experiment

The people pushing the button were trusting the person telling them to push the button.

Seems the tables have turned on OP.

Verdict is in: what Snowden did was not unethical

Originally posted by dominicus
Seems the tables have turned on OP.

Verdict is in: what Snowden did was not unethical

No, I've been quietly reading all the responses
and giving a star to each post that thinks it
is defeating the thesis of this thread when it
is actually using one of the 9 points already
established in the opening post.







As to Snowden's so-called ethical behavior.

"Any analyst at any time can target anyone. Any selector, anywhere... [color=gold]I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge, to even the President..."

-Edward Snowden

See how he missuses the word authorities?

Just because he had possession
did not mean
that he had propriety.

He only scored 9 out of 10.


Mike

Originally posted by mikegrouchy

10) [color=gold] Trust: We live in a world where everything is connected to everything else. Everything we do, say, think and believe affects others and the universe around us. "As you sow, so shall you reap". This is also known as the "Law of Cause and Effect". Whatever we put out in the Universe is what comes back to us. If we want to be able to trust then we should be worthy of trust ourselves.

Snowden reminds me of that old saying that "Possession is only 9/10ths of the law" he had possession, but he had no sense of propriety. None. I guess to this generation, possession is now 10/10ths of the law, and the idea of trust is extinct.

I have to say thank you to him though. Until he did this I had no idea that the younger generations were so devoid of trust themselves, but now I can see it reflected in the universe around me. There is almost no trust by youth in the older generation. Ya'll truly believe we spent these last two generations building an interconnected existence for no good reason.

You have it backwards for the most part as far as trust is concerned. When you say "the younger generations were (are) so devoid of trust". If by that you mean the younger generations aren't trustworthy I complete disagree, but there is a time and a place for breaking trust and making a weary public more aware of the prison slowly building around them is not a bad move. If anything I would trust Snowden more then a lot of older people simply because people need to be able to trust their government. He's holding that government accountable for the trust it has breached. The only trust he breached is the trust the government invested in him to keep doing something that breaches the trust of all U.S. citizens. I would say Snowden has his priorities straight.

However, I might agree with the statement "There is almost no trust by youth in the older generation", but tell me why should there be? Especially where the government is concerned?

Not that I don't appreciate some of the things the "older generation" has done as far as fighting the wars it's faught and the few attempts it's made to defend civil liberties.

But for the most part it's the older generation especially in the US that is responsible for either directly or indirectly for a lot of our problems.

From Monsanto's firm hold on our agriculture to the deficit that was never really properly addressed and is sort of just being handed down to the younger generation like.."oops, sorry we #ed up your future, good luck fixing it".
Older generations are also responsible for establishing many if not all of the government agencies which are helping to perpetuate a tyranical government. I could go on and on and on with # my generation is going to have to deal with/put up with that we're not directly responsible for but I'm at work and I don't have all day to spend on this thing. My point is why should the younger generations trust the older ones? I don't see a good reason at this moment in time. Yet you post your thread saying the younger generation isn't trust worthy because of Snowden. A man who stood up for what was right and did what a lot of the "older generation" have been too cowardly to address. You can't tell me he didn't have people of older generations above or at his position and yet they did nothing. Just like they always have when faced with a fight against the government. I think the older generation was brain washed in the 50's to just have absolute trust in the government, and it's misplaced.

Originally posted by ErgoTheEgo
Milgram Experiment

The people pushing the button were trusting the person telling them to push the button.

And in that scenario the one who breaks trust,
is the one who will refuse to push the button,
thus doing the right thing on the whole.

Why is your generation so terrified to admit they violate trust,
particularly when it is a miniscule part of a larger topic.


Mike

Originally posted by GrimReaper86

Originally posted by mikegrouchy

10) [color=gold] Trust: We live in a world where everything is connected to everything else. Everything we do, say, think and believe affects others and the universe around us. "As you sow, so shall you reap". This is also known as the "Law of Cause and Effect". Whatever we put out in the Universe is what comes back to us. If we want to be able to trust then we should be worthy of trust ourselves.

Snowden reminds me of that old saying that "Possession is only 9/10ths of the law" he had possession, but he had no sense of propriety. None. I guess to this generation, possession is now 10/10ths of the law, and the idea of trust is extinct.

I have to say thank you to him though. Until he did this I had no idea that the younger generations were so devoid of trust themselves, but now I can see it reflected in the universe around me. There is almost no trust by youth in the older generation. Ya'll truly believe we spent these last two generations building an interconnected existence for no good reason.

You have it backwards for the most part as far as trust is concerned. When you say "the younger generations were (are) so devoid of trust". If by that you mean the younger generations aren't trustworthy I complete disagree, but [color=gold] there is a time and a place for breaking trust and making a weary public more aware of the prison slowly building around them is not a bad move. If anything I would trust Snowden more then a lot of older people simply because people need to be able to trust their government. He's holding that government accountable for the trust it has breached. The only trust he breached is the trust the government invested in him to keep doing something that breaches the trust of all U.S. citizens. I would say Snowden has his priorities straight.

However, I might agree with the statement "There is almost no trust by youth in the older generation", but tell me why should there be? Especially where the government is concerned?

Not that I don't appreciate some of the things the "older generation" has done as far as fighting the wars it's faught and the few attempts it's made to defend civil liberties.

But for the most part it's the older generation especially in the US that is responsible for either directly or indirectly for a lot of our problems.

From Monsanto's firm hold on our agriculture to the deficit that was never really properly addressed and is sort of just being handed down to the younger generation like.."oops, sorry we #ed up your future, good luck fixing it".
Older generations are also responsible for establishing many if not all of the government agencies which are helping to perpetuate a tyranical government. I could go on and on and on with # my generation is going to have to deal with/put up with that we're not directly responsible for but I'm at work and I don't have all day to spend on this thing. My point is why should the younger generations trust the older ones? I don't see a good reason at this moment in time. Yet you post your thread saying the younger generation isn't trust worthy because of Snowden. A man who stood up for what was right and did what a lot of the "older generation" have been too cowardly to address. You can't tell me he didn't have people of older generations above or at his position and yet they did nothing. Just like they always have when faced with a fight against the government. I think the older generation was brain washed in the 50's to just have absolute trust in the government, and it's misplaced.

Once again at no point do the quote above
actually admit that Snowden violated trust.
It skates right up to the point, then quickly around it
and into hero worship. The three paragraphs
and wall of text that follow are nothing
but counter accusations against the elderly.



This younger generation
They seem to be suffering from some kind of borderline hysteria
that even the tiniest admission will result in catastrophic world ending failure.

I mean have you read some of the mountains of countercharges made,
by some commenters in this thread,
in an effort to scream louder and louder . . .
"no the NSA broke trust first... first-est .... first-est-er....
...they're-really-bad ...
and ... Snowden-did-nothing-wrong!!!!11
...besides you're old and a meany head."

Get a grip guys.
9 out 10 aint bad.


Mike

Originally posted by mikegrouchy
And in that scenario the one who breaks trust, is the one who will refuse to push the button, thus doing the right thing on the whole.

Why is your generation so terrified to admit they violate trust, particularly when it is a miniscule part of a larger topic.

Mike

The reaction is not to your assertion of trust being "violated".

The reaction is to your assertion of "UnEthicalness".

When a person is going to violate the "trust" of someone regardless of whether they choose left, right, up, down, forward, backward, diagonal, or stay put...

Word choices matter. Choices matter.

Originally posted by ErgoTheEgo

Originally posted by mikegrouchy
And in that scenario the one who breaks trust, is the one who will refuse to push the button, thus doing the right thing on the whole.

Why is your generation so terrified to admit they violate trust, particularly when it is a miniscule part of a larger topic.

Mike

My generation? Hmmm...

The reaction is not to your assertion of trust being "violated".

The reaction [color=gold] is to your assertion of "UnEthicalness".

When a person is going to violate the "trust" of someone regardless of whether they choose left, right, up, down, forward, backward, diagonal, or stay put...

Word choices matter.

So now we are going to do twelve rounds on the definition of Ethics?

I thought I had provided ten definitions in the opening post,
showing that Trust, while only 1/10th of Ethical behavior,
is an undeniable part of the whole.

Further I thought it was more than generous,
and a huge compliment to the man,
to award him perfect marks on 90% of them.

Why am I being accused of making "Assertions"?


Mike

Originally posted by mikegrouchy
Why am I being accused of making "Assertions"?

Because you are making assertions.

Going along with the program violates the trust of the public. Revealing the program violates the trust of those that hired him.

Trust will be violated regardless of choice made. That's what makes the choice matter.

Originally posted by ErgoTheEgo

Originally posted by mikegrouchy
Why am I being accused of making "Assertions"?

Because you are making assertions.

...uh...

No, ... you are?


... am I doing this right?

>.>
Mike

Originally posted by mikegrouchy
... am I doing this right?

Depends on your aim.

You are advertising to your audience loud and clear.

As am I.

We are both doing it right... though our "rights" might look like "lefts" to each other.

Choices matter.

Originally posted by ErgoTheEgo

Originally posted by mikegrouchy
Why am I being accused of making "Assertions"?

Because you are making assertions.

Going along with the program violates the trust of the public. [color=gold] Revealing the program violates the trust of those that hired him.

Trust will be violated regardless of choice made. That's what makes the choice matter.

There it is!

The admission.

I agree.
And I agree with you.
Snowden weighed correctly when he felt the public trust was more important.

Star for you.


Mike


Now go back and count how many posts you made before you felt safe enough to actually say it.