Snowden is the poster child for an UnEthical Generation

Originally posted by KeliOnyx
Sorry no dice he is a coward, a liar and a thief. The only example he is capable of providing anyone is what not to do.

Weak sauce. Hope you can come correct with more than that and you should consider reading the constitution, if you know even what that is

In Snowden I Trust

reply to post by mikegrouchy


Did he violate our trust or did the government? Sounds to me like he is someone you "could" trust.

It is like society wants to be dumbed down "smart phones/gadgets galore/anti depressants/escapism" and have all our rights stricken from us, under the guise of security.

It's happening right before our eyes and we do nothing about it.

Yes, in Snowden we trust.

reply to post by mikegrouchy

I have to say thank you to him though. Until he did this I had no idea that the younger generations were so devoid of trust themselves, but now I can see it reflected in the universe around me. There is almost no trust by youth in the older generation. Ya'll truly believe we spent these last two generations building an interconnected existence for no good reason.

Why should the younger generations trust the older generations? Once they come of age they can see quite clearly the giant stinking mess left for them to clean up. Why should they trust a generation of gluttons and fools that not only sold them into slavery by voting for draconian legislation (and the cronies who drafted it) but sold out their futures by allowing criminals to ruin the economy and commit day light robbery of tax payer money in plain sight of the entire nation? The older generation voted for these criminals and permitted them to dismantle every good thing about western society, and then did nothing when it was obvious the lunatics were running the asylum. The older generation doesn't DESERVE to be trusted. Period.

Mike Grouchy... if I may...

You've taken a real tinderbox subject here and offered it with grace, patience and intellect. You've presented your opinion quite well and replied to those of us (including myself) who differ in that opinion with the kind of sensible dialogue that we always hope for here at ATS.

If I were a mod, I would offer an applause for your civility and focus.

Originally posted by redoubt
Mike Grouchy... if I may...

You've taken a real tinderbox subject here and offered it with grace, patience and intellect. You've presented your opinion quite well and replied to those of us (including myself) who differ in that opinion with the kind of sensible dialogue that we always hope for here at ATS.

If I were a mod, I would offer an applause for your civility and focus.

there may be civility and focus to this thread, but there is a really thin line between that, and outright trolling, though subtle to some, obvious to the rest.

The only people siding against Snowden, are those who work at the Alphabets, the contractors who make millions from us being spied on, and those who do not know WHAT THE CONSTITUTION IS......

When an Ex-President says that Democracy has failed in the US due to Snowden's leaks, and that what's gong is unconstitutional, well that pretty much speaks for itself.

It's clear as day that branches of the gov are in violation of the constitution all because Snowden revealed what's really going on behind closed doors. That's a duty to every single Citizen in America. So to be against Snowden, in my eyes, makes you unpatriotic and someone to be viewed with suspicion as to agendas and possibly even a commy-military industrial fascist corporatism type who has bought in to MSM propaganda.

We have laws in the U.S. to protect whistleblowers.

reply to post by dominicus

The only people siding against Snowden, are those who work at the Alphabets, the contractors who make millions from us being spied on, and those who do not know WHAT THE CONSTITUTION IS......

I've read (and starred) a lot of your comments here my friend... but we either accept that people can have honest, heartfelt opinions that don't meld with our own or we have to be ready to find our own positions under such scrutiny.

I can respect an honorable opponent and so long as we have that Constitution, defend their right to express it regardless.

Originally posted by redoubt
reply to post by dominicus

 

The only people siding against Snowden, are those who work at the Alphabets, the contractors who make millions from us being spied on, and those who do not know WHAT THE CONSTITUTION IS......

I've read (and starred) a lot of your comments here my friend... but we either accept that people can have honest, heartfelt opinions that don't meld with our own or we have to be ready to find our own positions under such scrutiny.

I can respect an honorable opponent and so long as we have that Constitution, defend their right to express it regardless.

Of course, freedom of expression, opinion, religion, etc ..... I agree.....gave you a few stars too.......I'm sure we can find better poster children for an Unethical Generation .... Chris Brown beating Rihanna is a much better example, Jodi Arias killing her bf is an even better one ....but to call Snowden Unethical is like calling Gearge W. Bush a black guy.

I hear ya though ....star for you friend

So how many people with 'ethics' or a 'conscience' gets a job at the NSA?

Hmmm

Then goes runs to the 2 biggest spies in the world.

Snowden is the poster Child for an unethical generation i would agree.

As you can tell a lot about a people by who they 'worship'.

Doesn't matter one damn what people think government does as those people are dime a dozen,and all have a beef, but the moment when we say laws don't matter simply because they don't like what government does the entire system gets placed in jeopardy because everyone will start piling on saying they don't have to obey the laws.

Equal opportunity contempt here of both Government and Snowden people need to stop making him in to something his isn't.

Originally posted by mikegrouchy

Originally posted by TheSpanishArcher
reply to post by mikegrouchy

 

The US government broke it's own contract with We The People by doing all sorts of illegal things. It's called the Constitution, maybe you should read it sometime.

Therefore, [color=gold] his NDA is null and void.

So, go ahead and ignore the actual story, which is the information he has given us, and create a distraction thread about the person who gave us this information. Shoot the messenger because you don't like his message.

Trust, what a sad word to use to make Snowden into a traitor, when it's the damned government who are traitors to We The People. They have no trust in us, therefore the illegal spying and deserve NONE from us.

You have the right to think what you do, I have the right to disagree. I doubt that twain will ever meet.

So all I have to do is accuse my perceived enemy
of illegal activity and that gives me justification
to violate any agreements signed by me?

Two wrongs make a right?

Are you actually trying to help or hurt the image of
this generations ethical behavior?

Mike

edit on 18-7-2013 by mikegrouchy because: (no reason given)

There are people in this world who demand trust by manipulation and saying they are one thing they are not. To give them their trust and then break it when you find out they are insane is a good thing. If they have not lied about what they where or manipulated then their would never have been any trust/mistrust issue would there.

You cannot give trust to a entity or person who is a compulsive liar, since the trust was first broken when you where told lies about what the entity or person is.

Originally posted by mikegrouchy

Originally posted by suz62

So [color=gold] he violated the government's trust. In his case, so what? His judgment was that people needed to know the extent of the government's violation of the public's trust.

One outweighs the other. Open your eyes.

I agree.

As long as one is willing to admit he violated trust,
then yes... I'm willing to weigh one against the other.

It's when, in the mad rush to hero worship that one skips over
the 10th point in Snowden's case that I take exception.

Trust is not something to be conveniently discarded,
particularly when accusing someone else of doing the same thing.

/star for you

Mike

edit on 18-7-2013 by mikegrouchy because: (no reason given)

An example that is the same moral story but pushed in another direction. A man and a woman marries. The man is a liar and have not told her about his past and is in fact a psychotic bully who hits women and after a while he starts to bully the wife both mentally and starts to beat her. The wife leaves him and he is annoyed that she has broken her vows and left him.

In this case you would not have discussed any trust being broken by the wife since it is clear that the man was lying about what he was.

Originally posted by mikegrouchy

Originally posted by Auricom
reply to post by mikegrouchy

 

I'm in his generation. And trust is one of my key principles. That goes for both individuals and law abiding corporations. When I work for a company, they can expect me to keep my mouth shut when it comes to things that can hurt the company. However, should one of those secrets be something that breaks the law, as a citizen it is my duty to speak up, to whoever will listen.

Let's not forget here, Snowden was working for people who were constantly VIOLATING American people's rights. Daily. The unethical thing to do, is to keep your mouth shut and ignore it. Not the other way around.

So in my opinion, he's gotten all ten out of ten right. I sure hope you're never in such a position where you would sit quietly by and allow people like his employers to rape the constitution.

At no point in the quote above
is it admitted that Snowden violated trust.

Only the crimes of the perceived enemy seem to matter,
and the hero-du-jour is given a free pass. Nay, celebrated even.

How can I trust your sense of what is and is not ethical?

Mike

The one who start miss representing itself is always at fault since all lies after that is created because of that manipulation/miss representation.

fantastic post, F&F and one of the best things I've read on ATS in a very long time. Well done.

reply to post by mikegrouchy


The public trust is also based on and rooted in mutual accountability to the greatest possible good of one and all, so he might have weighed that issue and concluded that trust must be held by the people towards their government and vice versa and that therefore the higher trust was to throw away his life, as he knew it, for the sake of the greater good, and that's almost Christlike in the dark face of a looming shadow government, in Jesus' own case an evil empire who'd corrupted and been corrupted by, the "elite" of his time, including the temple priests or "keepers of the flame" who'd "dropped the ball" in forgetting what was most important to know and recognize and understand, by coming only to be served by, and not exclusively to serve the mutual best interest of all in the house.

If he served the public good, the public trust then he's on the right side of history.

You don't think he didn't consider what you've indicated in your OP about "trust"..?

Looks to me like he had ALL his bases covered, including last but not least, as in Jesus' case, what was simply the right and only logical thing to do, as you pointed out in 1-9.

By actually HITTING point 10, as a higher trust and good, he hits it out of the park, and then some, like any truly good deed that's done for all the right reasons, so it's historically "congruent" and a small triumph for the little man, a mass-man, little more than a type of cattle to be herded in the view of these same so-called "elite".

They know information is power and soon they'll have quantum computers if they don't already with thinking neural nets, in fact the NSA recently bought one from a company in Vancouver, and now they're working on a scaled-up quantum cubit computer with a power that we can hardly comprehend and that there are not words adequate to describe so you're darned right that this kind of thing is of grave public concern.

...while the egalitarian noosphere of the omegapoint (Internets / Cloud) circles the globe at the speed of light, slowly but surely foiling even the most cunning of plans, plots and schemes, and conspiracies to "take over the world"!

Bravo Snowden I say. Bravo!

It gives me hope, and restores my eternally optimistic spirit.

He did the right thing, in HIS case, at this moment in history.

Best regards,

NAM

If our generation is so unethical, what does that say about your generation...you know..the ones who raised us and taught us our values? Maybe you should look at the mirror and judge yourself before you cast the stone at others. If Snowden is an example of what morals we shouldn't want to emulate, then I am perfectly fine with getting a 9/10 score any day of the week.

I love how you talk about trust as its the ultimate value, yet you are mocking a young man because he spit in the face of the total lack of trust of a government for its citizens. If you spy on someone, that means you don't trust them...maybe if your generation would have more TRUST in the generation that you raised, you wouldn't feel the need to violate our rights.

reply to post by mikegrouchy


well from my stand point I trust him more then you.. he shared with the people that we are all now void of privacy and I should have and be able to trust anyone in the government although I don't because well to much to say but I feel he did the right thing I trust people of my generation more then people in older generations because we seem to have more heart and more access to information then most of the people that grew up learing the status quo and fighting to keep it. My generation will change the world for the best

On the topic of trust, does it not apply to the government? How can we trust the government knowing they are spying on us? Why doesn't our government trust us? Trust, trust, trust.

Exposing a corrupt system outweighs any of your bulls*** virtues. Furthemore, where are you getting the unethical part from? What he did was completely ethical.

lack of trust isn`t a generational thing, look at the older generation and all the lies they have pulled over on the american people, if this generation lacks trust then it`s because the older generation who are running things have taught them not to trust.
We spend our whole lives working and giving money to the government to hold for us so when we retire or become disabled we can get that money back, but then we find out that the government stole and spent all that money and there probably won`t be any of our money left for us when retire or become disabled. The retirement age keeps being raised making us work longer, benefits that we pay for keep being reduced while the amount we have to pay keeps being increased.
Lie, Lie, Lie thats all our older generation of leaders knows how to do.

Where did you get your list of 10? Other than that, no there is not any trust in the older generation.

I have seen two major events during my lifetime - the usage of September 11th, 2001 to create the Patriot Act (funded by taxpayer dollars) and the financial collapse resulting in trillions of taxpayer dollars to reward the CEO's and companies that made the mistakes they made because they were "too big to fail."

If I don't trust the older generation, it is because of these two things. It is not my fault the older generation doesn't care that my generation is struggling to survive while they act poorly and expect $100 million dollar golden parachutes.

Call it fate, call it the universe, but that's what happened. I'm certainly not seeing any of this supposed awesomeness you guys made for the kids.

I would like to add that you are right in your presumption about the younger generation lacking trust in the older generation. What happened is complicated but probably at least somewhat a direct result of the older generation's choices -

In addition to technological advances and societal decay.