The bloodline of Tubal the great, descendent of Cain

reply to post by Saurus


that too is unkown.....the six pointed star of david was invented by jewish mystics in the late 1800s

it wasn't used by jews again until the nazis branded them with it......

Originally posted by tadaman
.....the six pointed star of david was invented by jewish mystics in the late 1800s

This one dates to 1008.

Originally posted by tadaman
...the six pointed star of david was invented by jewish mystics in the late 1800s

it wasn't used by jews again until the nazis branded them with it

I'm not sure where you're getting your facts...

In 1354, Emperor Charles IV of Prague granted the Jews of his city the privilege of displaying their own *flag on state occasions. Their flag displayed a large six-pointed star in its center.

Source: www.menorah.org...

reply to post by Saurus


here is one source I pulled up. It is what it is. A medieval idea that Jewish mystics revived from pagan worship around the first century for "magic protection". I stand corrected by the way. It wasnt used again until the 18th century, but it is still a late addition with no actual religious meaning. It was later used like an identification marker of Jews for gentiles.

Origins of the Star of David

The origins of the Star of David are unclear. We do know that the symbol hasn't always been associated exclusively with Judaism, but was used by Christians and Muslims at various points in history. Sometimes it was even associated with King Solomon instead of King David.

The Star of David is not mentioned in rabbinic literature until the middle ages. It was during the latter part of this era that Kabbalists (Jewish mystics) began to associate the symbol with deeper spiritual meaning. The Star of David was eventually cemented as a Jewish symbol when it became a favorite architectural decoration on Jewish buildings and then during World War II, when Hitler forced Jews to wear a yellow Star of David as a "badge of shame." (Jews were also forced to wear identifying badges during the Middle ages, by the way, though not always a Star of David.)

judaism.about.com...

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

jewsandjoes.com...

www.1timothy4-13.com...

reply to post by tadaman


Here is an excerpt from Masonic ritual, which predates the 1800s "invention" that you claim:

"The meaning of the Magen David is the Shield of David, and as this shield of David afterwards became the seal of Solomon, it has been adopted in other degrees in Freemasonry, as you may be aware."

reply to post by Saurus


With all do respect, that is Masonic ritual, NOT the Jewish faith. The six pointed star and the five pointed star were both used by Jewish mystics who studied kabbalah in medieval europe....The only reason one became associated with judaism over the other is because gentiles used it to mark jewish buildings and....jews.

EDIT:
I do stand corrected by the way. I meant to say that it wasnt REVIVED until the 1800s. I apologize for that.

reply to post by tadaman


You're missing the point - all credible sources point to the seal of Solomon being a six pointed star, and not an eight pointed star as you claimed.

reply to post by Saurus


There really arent any "credible" sources since neither "symbols" are mentioned in scripture.

We have just given form to the formless so as to teach the meaning behind it.....if you know what I am saying.

Like the christian trinity. Form to the formless.....and not mentioned anywhere in scripture as well.....

They are tools for teaching, nothing more.

EDIT:
consider this:

A 'magic symbol associated with the pentagram'?! The pentagram is one of the most powerful symbols of the occult. The Lord specifically warns against this kind of thing in His Torah. As Jews, and certainly as followers of Yeshua, we are not to look to magicians, mediums or sorcerers, etc. to guide us in our walk with the Lord, or protect us. And we are certainly not to use their symbols as representative of Yahveh or His People Israel:


'When you enter the Land which Yahveh your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to Yahveh and because of these detestable things Yahveh your God will drive them out before you. You must be blameless before Yahveh your God. For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you,Yahveh your God has not allowed you to do so.' Deuteronomy 18:9-14



Messianic Rabbi Barney Kasden, in wanting to uphold the Star of David within Messianic Judaism writes:

'The earliest apparent mention of this symbol is found in the Talmud. In describing the reign of King Solomon, the mention is made of how he had power over demonic forces by the emblem on his ring known as the "Seal of Solomon" (Gittin 68). Although the specific design of this seal is not described in this passage, it is also called the "Shield of David" (Magen David) because according to later tradition this also appeared on King David's battle gear.

The first concrete evidence in archaeology was found in the city of Sidon. This consisted of a ring with a seal on it in the shape of a six-pointed star, which was dated from the seventh century BCE. For those who have been to Israel, you will remember the famous six-pointed star on the synagogue of Capernaum. This structure has been dated from the second century CE but it is believed to be directly over the site of an earlier synagogue, the one likely used by Yeshua himself (Luke 4:31-37).' (This was taken from the website of Rabbi Barney Kasdan)


Rabbi Kasdan appears to have confused the Star of David (six pointed), for the Seal of Solomon (five pointed), as the Encyclopedia mentions above. Be that as it may, he wants to foster a foundation for acceptance of the Star of David by telling us of the archeological 'evidence' that makes it kosher. But this no more makes the Star of David kosher, than finding crosses and fish symbols on the tombs of early Roman Gentile Christians. Perhaps they didn't realize that those symbols were representative of the pagan gods, Tamuz and Dagon, respectively.4 Today, most believers who wear the Star of David or the cross or who use the fish symbol, don't realize it either. That's a very sad commentary on our 'teachers.'


What makes it so anti-Torah, and therefore anti-Yahveh, is that this lends credence to magic and the occult, which Yahveh soundly condemns. Unfortunately, this practice is prevalent within Judaism (and Christianity), today. An interweaving of occult mysticism, with the Scriptures and the traditions of the Jewish (or Christian) People. The Talmud was begun in Babylon, with all its pagan-occult influences, long after King's David and Solomon were dead. And the Kabala5 is not part of the Word of God. Kabala is Jewish sorcery.

That the ring had no specific star design mentioned in the Talmud, lends itself to silence, as there is no way for us to know what actual design was upon it (the five points being given to the ring at a later date). But this is a moot point, for the ring never existed, except in the minds of the Rabbis.

Second, Sidon was never a city in Israel. Therefore, the ring that was found in the 7th century BCE with the 'Jewish Star of David' was not the ring of a Jew, but of a pagan. Only it wasn't known as the Star of David to the person who wore it!


There is no biblical evidence, whether Scriptural or archeological, that the so called 'Star of David' is a God given symbol for His People Israel. But there is extensive evidence that the 'Star of David' originated in the occult and continues to occupy a place in it today

www.seedofabraham.net...

It is actually very much against true Torah teachings to use such symbols.

Originally posted by tadaman

There really arent any "credible" sources since neither "symbols" are mentioned in scripture.

We have just given form to the formless so as to teach the meaning behind it.....if you know what I am saying.

Like the christian trinity. Form to the formless.....and not mentioned anywhere in scripture as well.....

They are tools for teaching, nothing more.

You're starting to sound like a Freemason! ;-)

reply to post by Saurus


I do appreciate much of what is offered. I mean, brotherhood, apprenticeship by just men for the betterment of the spirit....ect. Its not that far from where I stand personally anyways.

I am also a big fan of allegory so as to teach the willing. I like it. Maybe one day I will ask to join. I just dont have the time right now. I need to work too much at the moment.

The following two quotes are both from your same post above:

Originally posted by tadaman

"...neither [are] "symbols" are mentioned in scripture."

"The pentagram is one of the most powerful symbols of the occult. The Lord specifically warns against this kind of thing in His Torah."

To me, they look rather contradictory, wouldn't you say?

reply to post by Saurus


not really. Supposedly the lord warned against pagan practices. Occult power symbology was one of the forbidden practices.

The actual use of star symbology is very old. It predates almost all religions and is even seen in tribal art from times long forgotten.

The temple as you know was a place of convergence in Israel. The lord punished the Jews many times for idolatry and for having graven images in the temple itself. Images of deities were kept in the temple for tribute by the gentiles who traveled to Israel. At several points in history they were cast out which angered the surrounding peoples and led to conflict between Jews and their neighbors, but was done because it was a form of defilement to Jewish eyes to have other "gods" in the sacred temple.

Really all symbols we think are recent like the swastika or the shield of David, ect are very ancient symbols from what many think to be antediluvian times.

IMO they are.

The Elohim warned against "stirring settled waters" so to speak. So all that was to be thrown out, baby and bathwater alike....

also, there really isnt a reference to any star symbology in Jewish scripture. Just that Pagan practices should be avoided.

Originally posted by tadaman

Really all symbols we think a recent like the swastika or the shield of David, ect are very ancient symbols from what many think to be antediluvian times.

IMO they are.

I agree with you here.

But then, in your interpretation of the Torah, where does one draw the line between using allegory to teach and using symbols to teach? Irrespective of the origin of the allegories or symbols, if they are used to teach a good thing, then their use can't be bad...

reply to post by Saurus


Oh I am simply a student of all things and such is what the Torah says.

I try to measure mankind by his adherence to his truth, not my own.

I have no issue with using crooked lines to write straight.


EDIT:
I have faith. I do not hope for Gods miracles just so long as I "do this" or "say that". I have faith in "God /all" and myself. That is my religion.
That is my law.

reply to post by tadaman


You really should consider joining Freemasonry. Based on the discussion we've just had, I really think you would enjoy it and find it interesting/useful.

reply to post by Saurus


Thanks. I think I will one day.

Have a good one sir.

Cheers.

Originally posted by LUXUS
Yes you should watch it, it is a very good video on the history of not only masonry but the origins of all ancient esoteric brotherhoods.

One of the Elohim mated with eve and she had a son Cain who unlike Able and Seth was not the son of Adam.

Cain was banished for killing his half brother Able and went off into the world, built the first city and found himself a wife.

The line of Cain were more intellectual then the line of Seth (because they had some of the Elohim dna in them) and it was them who discovered all the Sciences and arts in antiquity. Even when Solomons temple was being built Solomon was not capable of building it so he employed hiram abiff (a descendent of tubal Cain) to build it. In truth the wisdom for which Solomon has become renowned actually belongs to a descendent of Cain

When the descendents of Cain knew a great flood was approaching they preserved the ancient teachings by inscribing them in stone these teachings became the core of what was secretly taught in these secret society s after the flood.

The genetic line of Cain was all but destroyed save Tubal Cain, it was from him that the last remaining descendents of Cain came who were the god kings of antiquity.

edit on 18-7-2013 by LUXUS because: (no reason given)

I find it interesting to consider ancient sources such but these are sometimes confusing as are the accounts in Genesis 4 and 5 that describe the generations of Cain and Seth. They are listed and it would appear that the names are the same or similar although the order of descent is different from what I have written here.

Genesis 4

Cain
Mehujael
Irad
Enoch
Methushael
Lamech
Tubal-cain

Genesis 5

Kenan
Mahalalel
Jared
Enoch
Methuselah
Lamech
Noah

If they are in fact identical, this raises questions about the identity of Noah as well as Tubalcain who are both said to be descended from Lamech.

Originally posted by ElohimJD
reply to post by LUXUS

 

Legend has it Tubal Cain's daughter Naamah was married to Noah's son Ham and therefore was on the Ark. She was the mother of Cush the first "god-king" in the post flood world at Babel.

It is through Naamah that the bloodline of Cain survived the deluge.

This means Nimrod would be the direct blood great-grandson of Tubal Cain himself.

Interresting thread, great stories.

God Bless,

edit on 18-7-2013 by ElohimJD because: (no reason given)

At Palenque, tomb of king, he records that he descends from the "first mother" that had survived the great destruction around 3000bc. His son was born in her image...close to 9feet tall with 6 fingers and toes. Sons name was Kon Ballum (forgive spelling).

Much more info in the book "Forest of Kings" written by schooled experts of the highest order in Maya studies. Considers among a handful of experts recognized world wide as such.

Many were the lifetimes
Of the son of Noah's brother
See his coat the ragged
Riches of the soul

~Incredible String Band

Originally posted by LUXUS

Cain was banished for killing his half brother Able and went off into the world, built the first city and found himself a wife.

Where did Cain's wife come from?

When the descendents of Cain knew a great flood was approaching they preserved the ancient teachings by inscribing them in stone these teachings became the core of what was secretly taught in these secret society s after the flood.

No, according to Josephus, In the Antiquities of the Jews, it is Seth's descendants who invented the wisdom of the heavenly bodies, and built the "pillars of the sons of Seth", two pillars inscribed with many scientific discoveries and inventions, notably in astronomy. They were built by Seth's descendants based on Adam's prediction that the world would be destroyed at one time by fire and another time by global flood, in order to protect the discoveries and be remembered after the destruction. One was composed of brick, and the other of stone, so that if the pillar of brick should be destroyed, the pillar of stone would remain, both reporting the ancient discoveries, and informing men that a pillar of brick was also erected. Josephus reports that the pillar of stone remained in the land of Siriad in his day.

The genetic line of Cain was all but destroyed save Tubal Cain, it was from him that the last remaining descendents of Cain came who were the god kings of antiquity.

How did Tubal-cain survive the Flood sent by God to destroy the wicked if he wasn't on the Ark? If he didn't survive, why are we talking about his bloodline?

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by LUXUS

We know masonry had three phases

1 Purely operative (the most ancient)
2 Mix of operative and speculative
3 largely speculative (the least ancient)

How can you say that? Operative masons still exist today - they are most certainly not just a 'phase'.

It is the allegory in Freemasonry that teaches that we stem from the operatives. The actual history of Freemasons is unknown. Some say we stem from the operatives. Some say we stem from the Templars. Some say we stem from the Rosicrucians. But to state categorically like you have done that there were three 'phases' is entirely speculation.

I can say that because operative masonry is not the same as modern Freemasonry, for example the old operative masons trace their history back all the way to Nimrod and say they were present at the building of the tower, they also said one of their masters taught science to the Egyptians. Modern freemasonry on the other hand only trace their history back to Solomon's temple.

Also it is not speculation to say at one time masons were actually stone workers, and had no "speculative" members amongst them, then there was a period when they began to accept non stone masons resulting in a mix of stone masons and non stone masons, whilst today it would not be speculation to say the vast majority of Freemasons actually don't work with stone