Is it in the heart or in the deed?

Is has been said that god judges men by what is in their hearts.

If a man is miserly at heart, and has no tolerance for others, yet being convinced that he will face the wrath of god he donates to charities and puts on a falsely caring face to others, which will god judge him by?

It has been said that god judges men by their acts.

If a man has a caring heart, but is mislead into believing that his neighbor is evil, and so kills the man, which will god judge him by?

I think he judges by actions.

Just because you think about killing someone doesn't mean you actually did it. Like they say, actions speak louder than words.

reply to post by jiggerj

Dear jiggerj,

It's a pleasure to run across your threads, most especially when I'm pretty sure I know what you're asking.

If a man is miserly at heart, and has no tolerance for others, yet being convinced that he will face the wrath of god he donates to charities and puts on a falsely caring face to others, which will god judge him by?

If "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature," it's got to be suicidal to try to fool God.

If a man has a caring heart, but is mislead into believing that his neighbor is evil, and so kills the man, which will god judge him by?

If he really cared for his neighbor, he would feel compassion, pray for him, try to help him, notify the authorities, whatever is needed for the neighbor's eventual summum bonum.

Good questions. I'll either respond or watch, as you desire. (Or, if I get an urge.)

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by jiggerj


This isn't you we are talking about is it? And is your neighbor O.K.?

As far as the question goes .. .

I have read before that If you spend an entire life doing nothing but good and then one do something bad, in most cases that 1 bad thing cancels out every good thing you have ever done.

Also, doing good only to save yourself from the wraith of god is not going to improve your situation. Especially if the devil made you kill your neighbor.

I think the key is to believe in what you can't see (as far as god goes) and be Genuine at heart.

I think that might hold more weight than either. Plus as an added advantage that will help keep the devil from telling you that your neighbor is bad.

Originally posted by jiggerj
Is has been said that god judges men by what is in their hearts.

If a man is miserly at heart, and has no tolerance for others, yet being convinced that he will face the wrath of god he donates to charities and puts on a falsely caring face to others, which will god judge him by?

It has been said that god judges men by their acts.

If a man has a caring heart, but is mislead into believing that his neighbor is evil, and so kills the man, which will god judge him by?

edit on 7/17/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

So IF this is about YOU and you are truly wondering then God doesn't judge us any longer.Supposedly we will be rewarded for our actions and works here on earth. But what we do has no difference in making it to Heaven. I'll just be glad to make it to Heaven, if I am rewarded then okay, but that's not my goal in any way. Jesus already fixed that all up and we just have to believe in Him. Our acceptance by God isn't based on anything we do. For we cannot work our way into Heaven.

I have a feeling you're just throwing this out there since my impression is you like to question and then push for more details on the answers that come. In any case God has already forgiven us of all our sins. And so out of love for other human beings I would hope one would just do the right thing. My take on it is I have experienced pain, loss, despair, aloneness and if I can ever be in a position to give comfort to another person, even if that person seems hateful and acts ugly towards others I know it's because they have been hurt and lacking in love. So perhaps I can let another human know they are worthy and deserving of love. Kind of loving others unconditionally.

I'm going to take a chance and offer you a sleep well and take care. Even if I get slammed by severe sarcasm back, ha ha. Night!

Yes I do believe it is that simple.

Actions are outward expressions of what's in your heart. They're really one and the same. You can't have bad deeds without bad hearts, and bad hearts are naturally reflected in bad deeds.

Giving is a reflection of the heart regardless what reasons we use as motivation for action.

reply to post by jiggerj


Both will be judged by what's in their hearts.

Someone who donates to charity for tax write-offs or for face value with his peers does not have a sincere heart.

Equally, someone who kills another man just because he believes he is evil, does not have a sincere heart.

reply to post by jiggerj

It has been said that god judges men by their acts.

Ultimately actions will tell, if you were somehow able to view all of them that a man will do over a lifetime.
The gospels have Jesus discussing motivations for actions in order to point out the vacuous nature of the religion of his day. The theme of the New Testament being the replacement of it by a better religion which comes from an internal change in the person.

reply to post by jiggerj


reply to post by charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Morning all!

I don't think that this is an easy question to answer. But, I think it applies to all of us, in many different ways.

If a man is miserly at heart, and has no tolerance for others, yet being convinced that he will face the wrath of god he donates to charities and puts on a falsely caring face to others, which will god judge him by?

If "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature," it's got to be suicidal to try to fool God.

One of the arguments that gets my cockles in a bunch, that I get from Christians all too often, is the one that says "What if you're wrong? Isn't it better to follow God's word, just in case, and be wrong in heaven?" This kinda logic makes be want to echo Charles' sentiment, " If 'It's not nice to fool Mother Nature', it's got to be suicidal to try to fool God. "

The churches are filled with hypocrites that make Sunday appearances and donations to charitable causes just to be seen and to further their own interests. Churches are often more a source of social status and professional networking than spiritual solace.

That being said, lets look at this from the point of view of an individual dilemma, rather than a social ill. Let's say you have a person who truly believes in God's judgement, but can't find it in their heart to truly feel and understand compassion and is bound up in their fears, biases and prejudices. Isn't it better to pretend to care and donate, out of fear of wrath or in faith of redemption, than not?

There have been plenty of days when I wasn't happy to see my customers, but I faked it and put on a happy face, after all, smiles don't cost anything, and forced myself to put forth an attitude that I didn't feel in my gut. After a while, the effort paid off, and soon the outer and the inner became more aligned. Isn't it better, in God's eyes, to act out the attribute of goodness, even if it's disingenuous, than to purposely demonstrate one's inner "wickedness" by refusing God's commandment to help the poor?

If a man has a caring heart, but is mislead into believing that his neighbor is evil, and so kills the man, which will god judge him by?

If he really cared for his neighbor, he would feel compassion, pray for him, try to help him, notify the authorities, whatever is needed for the neighbor's eventual summum bonum.

This happens all time! It only takes a jury of 12 people to put a person to death. A "good" Christian can easily be mislead by the prosecution, and innocent people are put to death all too often. Then, we have the mass hysteria of "good" Christians being coerced to engage in righteous wars. Convinced of their neighbor's transgressions, they voluntarily enlist to kill.

God does not judge - man does.
Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven".

reply to post by jiggerj

Is has been said that god judges men by what is in their hearts.

If a man is miserly at heart, and has no tolerance for others, yet being convinced that he will face the wrath of god he donates to charities and puts on a falsely caring face to others, which will god judge him by?

If a belief in God and afterlife makes a man behave better and curb his own ego/desires then the man has a good heart and also he is better than the one who does good because he thinks proudly that "he is good"

It has been said that god judges men
by their acts.

If a man has a caring heart, but is
mislead into believing that his
neighbor is evil, and so kills the man,
which will god judge him by?

how can a caring, empathetic man kill someone because he believes that he is evil?
Although again only God can know exactly what is in the heart. If he killed but not because of anything personal but a genuine reason like protecting someone else from that evil neighbour then God would know it and judge accordingly.

reply to post by windword

Isn't it better to pretend to care and donate, out of fear of wrath or in faith of redemption, than not?

Let's put it this way: On my birthday, someone brings me a gift and says, "Here a gift. Though I couldn't afford it, and though I really didn't want to get you anything, I did anyway."

I would not want that gift, and I would refuse it. Why would god accept a gift of charity in his name if the person really didn't want to do it?

reply to post by logical7

how can a caring, empathetic man kill someone because he believes that he is evil?

Do you really think all the suicide bombers don't love their Allah with every fiber of their being? Wouldn't it be beyond ridiculous for them to not love their god, but kill themselves and others for a reward from the god they don't love?

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by windword

 

Isn't it better to pretend to care and donate, out of fear of wrath or in faith of redemption, than not?

Let's put it this way: On my birthday, someone brings me a gift and says, "Here a gift. Though I couldn't afford it, and though I really didn't want to get you anything, I did anyway."

I would not want that gift, and I would refuse it. Why would god accept a gift of charity in his name if the person really didn't want to do it?

Yes of course, I see your point. Certainly, charity is a "gift" to the poor. But in this case, it isn't a gift to God, it's a price tag for a ticket to heaven, where one want's to go. They may not like the price, and resent paying it, but they want to get in. It's mandatory tip / tithe that must be paid, if one wants the rewards.

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

What a neat post and what a good question you raise. It tells me I might have misunderstood jiggerj after all.

I'm sure you've run across a poster you wanted to track down, slap a few times, and smash his keyboard. (Who knows, maybe it's me.) But you didn't, and I don't think you would even if you had his address. There was anger inside of you, but you either forced yourself to be polite or left a thread you were otherwise interested.

I've got a poster (just one) that I'm still angry at. He insulted me, then called me a liar, and refused to apologize. To this day I will leave any thread he enters for fear of what I might say. (I know, not very Christian, but I'm working on it.)

Same thing with your customers, you wanted to snarl at them, tell them not to bother you with their ignorant questions, and tell them to saok their heads for about 15 minutes. But you didn't.

Allow me to get mystical, mushy and extreme for a moment. If someone walked up to Jesus and said "Hey, big boy, how would you like an all you can eat buffet of pain, suffering, and degradation, topped off with a huge dessert of death?" He would have replied with the ancient hebrew equivalent of "You're nuts. Get lost." (At least in my mind, He would have said that.)

But His Dad had said "Son, this is what I want from You. Do it out of love for Me and the people." Jesus spent a night alone in the Garden sweating bullets over that one, but finally said "OK, Dad, this one's for You."

Something similar happens when a soldier throws himself on a grenade, saving lives at the expense of his own.

This isn't done to impress God, get into Heaven, or win Brownie points. It's done out of a love for people and a desire to follow Jesus' example of love for His Father.

You don't yell at the customers because, fundamentally, you love them and don't want to be the cause of their hurt. A hurt that will eventually spread to their co-workers, friends, and family. You're falling on the grenade of your anger to save them.

And, if you're familiar with the Bible, you're doing it out of a love for God in the way Jesus did, sacrificing yourself for others and showing love to the Father.

I knew you we're a neat person. I'm glad to know you.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by logical7

 

how can a caring, empathetic man kill someone because he believes that he is evil?

Do you really think all the suicide bombers don't love their Allah with every fiber of their being? Wouldn't it be beyond ridiculous for them to not love their god, but kill themselves and others for a reward from the god they don't love?

whatever the case, why don't let God judge them?
I let it go. You however are stuck with the idea that they should be punished, so do you know what was in their heart?
Suicide is a unforgivable Sin in Islam. Anyone who does that is taking a life, playing god. Associating anything/anyone with God in Divinity even self is an unforgiveable Sin.
Still its only God who knows best and so can judge the Best.

Whats your objective of this thread? To try and prove how silly the two assumptions in op are and so disprove God? It won't work unless you find a way to know whats in someone's heart and you are not god
although you make your self as god and so find God arrogant.
God provides a mirror, you see God as you are!

You however are stuck with the idea that they should be punished

reply to post by logical7


Whoa! LOL Were's you get that idea from?

Still its only God who knows best and so can judge the Best.

Sooo, we should never do anything. EVER. We shouldn't notify anyone when a tsunami is about to kill 200,000 people because only god can judge right from wrong and good from bad. We should let terrorists do what they will because who are we to judge them? Right? Right???

Originally posted by jiggerj

You however are stuck with the idea that they should be punished

reply to post by logical7

 

Whoa! LOL Were's you get that idea from?

Still its only God who knows best and so can judge the Best.

Sooo, we should never do anything. EVER. We shouldn't notify anyone when a tsunami is about to kill 200,000 people because only god can judge right from wrong and good from bad. We should let terrorists do what they will because who are we to judge them? Right? Right???

thats just you twisting my words to make my idea look bad

you should protect people if you can and stop anyone wanting to harm others by using your own standards of good n bad and morality but ultimately all including you would be judged based on your heart and how much was your heart and actions in harmony.

reply to post by logical7

you would be judged based on your heart and how much was your heart and actions in harmony.

That raises a good question. Can we be held responsible for what is in our hearts? What we think and feel has been given to us, either by others or our chemical make-up. If someone is mistrustful of others, greedy, selfish, uncaring, can they be made to just stop being that way?