Maximum Hate - Minimum Reason

reply to post by Hefficide


I find most of the people on the Jerry Springer Show and Maury very easy to dislike.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by mideast

 

I can absolutely agree that people tend to be arrogant. What I am about to type, I hope you can take at face value and as it is meant... not as judgement or insult... but as an observation...

In judging others for their arrogance - you, yourself, are being arrogant.

It is a trap? No?

Yes , but I said before.

I believe in revolution inside , I do revolt and don't help myself be arrogant by help of Allah.

+ I do believe that I am not any powerful or high to be arrogant. That is one aspect of being Muslim. To surrender to be in peace.

But I got the point you made. Thanks for saying.

ETA : In man VS man revolution people create dictatorship to fight against current dictator. People get arrogant to fight the arrogant.

In man relying on god revolution , people don't follow their ego. They listen to their heart and they follow the light.

reply to post by Hefficide


Hey John, well done

This was my favorite part:

If I have any advantage at all it lay within age and the fact that I wish for this world to be better for my children than it has been for me.

That, I think, is a desire universal enough to transcend pigmentation and hatred. That is something that we can all, I think, agree upon. And that makes it seem like a good place to start.

It's time for constructive dialogue to begin. It's time for us to quit buying into divisive media manipulation. WE are the People... each and every one of us.

Hoping it doesn't get too much worse before it gets better.

reply to post by Hefficide

Thanks ATS!

No. Thank you Heff, a very well thought out and reasoned post. Sadly, the only people who will read and absorb it are those who already lean towards your point of view, no facts or reason can cure honest racism.

And also, welcome back! The boards seemed different but I couldn't nail it down, now it makes sense.

reply to post by snarky412

'People are the same where ever you go. Some are tall, some are short, some are fat, some are skinny, some are light skinned, some are dark skinned, some are rich, some are poor, and some are nice and then you have your A-holes. We all just talk differently.'

That should be a T-shirt or something. It's a universal truth. We are all brothers and sisters, even those I'd rather not be related to. We are all stuck on this pale blue dot and if we have a hope in hell of surviving another thousand years, we've got to get past petty insignificant differences, and fast

reply to post by mideast


Offended?

Hardly. You're the one who's coloring the whole by the actions of a few.

That in and of itself, is arrogant isn't it? Thinking that you know what all Westerners are like? How is that any different than someone thinking everyone from the mideast are alike?

I know that's not the case. How about you?

The cave men made cave drawings as an expression of their limits, to release it into the physical world from their mental world, this grew hope and their limits diminished to make way for kinship.

I am tired of all of the accusations of being racist when I bring simple facts to the table when I disagree with said accuser. I guess the judgment comes first, then the action. If you don't act on your judgment, are you still racist? Can you completely change judging people? Part of it is simple pattern recognition and grouping to make sense of what you see. I will never be able to not observe that someone has black, brown or yellow skin, just like I will never stop observing some flowers are red or purple. If I categorize these flowers on their growing characteristics, again it is pattern recognition and my experience growing them. Obviously flowers are not people, but I hope you understand what I mean.

I have had a few experiences with discrimination against myself (I am a white female), and I have discriminated against others in my head. I have not acted on these thoughts, however. I grew up in a somewhat racist family (a few comments here and there, but no outward actions). I got into volunteer work a few years ago. I was in a poverty stricken area where the minority population is high, (blacks and Hispanics). It was eye opening for me. To say that there are not challenges growing up in these environments from day one, is ridiculous. For all the people that say that they just have pull themselves up by their bootstraps and try harder, I say you may not have any idea just how difficult that can be in these places. Rising above the poverty and cultural mindset is extremely difficult, and I believe that many people don't have the strength to do so, no matter what color they may be, and never mind understanding that difficulty.

But, it can be done, and it must be done if there is to be success. This is where the racism charges become challenging for me. I can acknowledge hardship all day long. I understand the cultural carry over of resentment of slavery, job discrimination, etc. But, know that we acknowledge it, what's next? What will be done? I have empathized, and done my part understand the culture, changed some of my views, volunteered in said communities, but what now? When I am told that I have no idea what it is like to come from a family that has slave lineage, I have to pause and shake my head. This is because I have Irish and Indian blood, and all of those branches endured horrible hardships for different reasons. I acknowledge your hardships, will you acknowledge mine? Can we move on now? I have not found slave ownership records in my genealogy studies, am I still responsible? Are you responsible for driving my Irish ancestors off of their land and selling them into slavery? No, of course not, so again, can we move on? Am I a racist because I compared past family hardship with you? I don't think so, but many do, and this is what I am weary of. I am sorry, but I don't owe you anything because you are a different color than me. I will work on basing opinions about you on fact, because I don't like being judgmental about people I don't know, but you must do the same if things are to truly change. Does this make me racist? Again, some think so.

If everyone were to bow to each other, acknowledge their hardships due to race, and apologize, would that make it better? No, it won't, because after acknowledgement, the hard work begins, and too many people don't want to work that hard.

reply to post by artnut


I, myself, am half Irish and half Native American - and have very much had conversations I imagine to be similar to those you are discussing. People tend to gloss over the Native American part as fast as they can... but most become highly argumentative and express denial when they are told that there were white slaves as well and that the majority of those slaves were Irish.

However I understand that media and selective education are responsible for the cemented notions that most people have about race issues, past and present. Given this understanding I try to exercise a great deal of patience and compassion when engaging in such discussions.

Meaningful change, especially regarding entrenched thinking and belief, takes work and time. It rarely comes instantly or in a moment of epiphany.

The points you raise are the bleeding edge of the discussion... the sharp parts that threaten to cut us. Discussions, such as we are all having now, can derail into emotion. For example, I obviously have love for my heritage. I honor my ancestors. By doing so I also honor their identities - in toto... including their nationalities and heritage. I expect that most of us, regardless of specifics, so the same.

The difficulty seems to be in finding the fulcrum point between being proud of who one is and where we begin to judge others for not being like us.

In my opinion the answer is extremely simple. We all have our unique stories to tell - a story which includes and is effected by our individual heritages. As long as we can accept that the other persons sense of identity is equally as valid as our own? I see that as the best way to go about it. Mutual respect and self-respect.

Having said that - the things beyond a persons control should be far lower on our radar than they currently are. A nice person is a nice person. Period. A jerk is a jerk. Period. The color of my skin ( or anyone elses for that matter ) doesn't even factor into these things.

I guess I am saying that I am not anti-judgement... as judgement is part of being social. I am against judgement based upon irrelevant criteria.

Well, I think it really starts with the children. Just as I brought preconceived notions to the table when working with minority children, I noticed they were already working on some of their own. I think sometimes even just being a positive presence helps alter perspective slightly.

I joked with my son his sophomore year in high school about a ghetto exchange program. I was not being ugly, but I just recognized that he was really starting to grow an entitlement mentality despite all of our efforts to raise him differently. I told him he should try living in an impoverished area for a while to get a better perspective on humanity. All joking aside, there is an element of truth to that.

Bravo John Sometimes, it feels as though I've been born too early. It's hard to say that without sounding conceited, but the point is there is so much still wrong with the world, so much so that you wish you could wait another hundred years and come back to see if the storm has passed. Right now we are living the part of the history book a few pages over from some pretty horrible stuff. But as long as we are moving in the right direction that's all that counts. Thank you for another of many fine posts.

reply to post by Hefficide


As always good show Heff! It never seems to surprise me how the most educated are almost always the least biased! I believe that this shows how important education is and how ignorance breeds hatred and fear!

Ban the racists around here if you realy do feel so strongly about it. I see obvious racists pop up all the time on ats, nothing is ever done about them.

Originally posted by Atzil321
Ban the racists around here if you realy do feel so strongly about it. I see obvious racists pop up all the time on ats, nothing is ever done about them.

Sure they do, and they get caught and reprimanded. People can be taught to love, instead of being taught to hate. Many people change their views on Race. We have to be willing to open our eyes, as a species. Even the most diehard Racist can change their views. That's why discussing it is important.

reply to post by Atzil321


I'm guessing that you have never been on other forums where one of the prime points of discussion is bashing ATS for banning based upon racism far too much? Moreover, if you see posts that are offensive in that manner, please alert them. This is not a forum where posts are reviewed before becoming publicly accessible... posts here are in real time and we depend upon such alerts to help us remove blatantly offensive content.

Nobody on the ATS staff bans without discussion. It just doesn't happen. So, while I appreciate your suggestion.. it is not in line with the procedural realities of the site. We moderate by consensus... so my voice is merely one of many.

Having said that...

Speaking as a member, and not a moderator ( any posts I make as moderator are quite obviously done in that capacity ) - zero tolerance policies never work because the lines always become blurred. For example if a person with racial biases visits this thread and presents a polite argument defending their views I would happily debate with them - in an attempt to try and sway them into seeing my points as valid. With a zero tolerance policy such intercourse would not be possible, thus limiting the potential for ATS to be a place of open discussion... a charge we too often face in our attempts to keep the sight family friendly and welcoming.

Having opinions contrary to the norm is fine. Some subjects, for various legal reasons, are totally disallowed... but most are open, just as long as decorum and courtesy are adhered to. Threads, such as this one, offer only a chance to provoke others into thought. That's all.

Obviously, this is a difficult subject that you were able to address effectively. Easy to read and flowed very well I might add.

Originally posted by Atzil321
Ban the racists around here if you realy do feel so strongly about it. I see obvious racists pop up all the time on ats, nothing is ever done about them.

Im a strong believer in freedom of expression. People have a right to express themselves freely, without fear of being silenced, censorship is the realm of dictatorship. People have a right to cause offence, freedom of expression allows for those with a different opinion than your own, you simply cannot start censoring people with views you find offensive. That is the price of freedom and free will. You cannot start excluding people from that freedom, otherwise you end up where we are right now.
Besides, how do you get people talking freely and openly when everyone is worried what they are actually allowed to say?
Without open and free dialogue the understanding of each other and breaking down the fears of the unknown will never happen.

reply to post by mideast


People did anti war protests during the Viet Nam war. However, at that time there were some leftist radicals and communist sympathizers behind that movement who had another agenda besides ending war. Their agenda was to make Americans lose the war against communism. After the fall of the Soviet Communist empire, those who use wars for profit and control had to rename the enemy and so they called it a "war on terror", a sort of nameless, faceless enemy which could surface anywhere at any time. I would mention that some of the people who stirred up the Kent State riots are also in a position of power today.
World War II involved many nations at war with each other. I am not sure why you place the US in a position of being the aggressor when clearly another nation was from the very start. In fact the US didn't want to get into the war. During that time both Russia and Germany had gulags and camps going for people who disagreed with the State. We only know about the Russian gulags because a dissident by the name of Alexsander Solzhenitsyn wrote a book about it in the 70's. It's called the "Gulag Archipelago" if you are interested.
As for the German camps, my father was among the first troops to reach the Neuengamme camp complex. Your view of American soldiers as being all aggressive, horrid people is at best biased from some media outlets who have anti American agendas. The American soldiers who found the prisoners in the camps were horrified. You can find some of their stories online.
I am not saying I agree with the wars America has been involved in the last 10 years. I was against all of them. I believe the CFR, the Bilderbergs, the Rothschilds and many Elites were behind these wars and the American people as a whole do not approve.

Your post really shows me how easy it is for media and the Controlling elites to control how people view world events and foreign policies of nations. The Elites stir up hatred among different peoples in various ways. You may believe that the American people can just rise up and say no to the Government, but if your own government can slay the students in the streets, what makes you think the American govt can't do it with 10 times the force?
Have you seen how the government views people who disagree with this President and his policies? Any who oppose him are being called out as domestic terrorists or at best extremists, or they use the race card. We've heard it ad nauseum. It is a tool to shut down dialogue or dissent.
I hope you appreciate where I am coming from, because many Americans are very tired of the constant wars and rumors of wars.
In the same manner the Elites have stoked up wars, they have stoked up division in race relations The media is complicit in this, even to the point of fabricating things for propaganda. Why do they do this? They have to create division so we don't team up against the real bad guys.

reply to post by Hefficide


Heff, I gotta say... I like you. I like your emotional openness, and your razor-like sense of fairness. Your logic is pretty good too, generally. But your achilles' heel is right here in this post for all the worlds to see. You believe that your life is the result of a random chance that had nothing to do with your own choice. And I think it is that, coupled with the extremely sensitive nature of your emotional makeup AND your finely-honed sense of fairness, that makes carrying on with life such a burden for you. I know what that burden feels like. I carried it for many years myself. And fate, it appears, has chosen this moment for me to write this to you concerning the door on your cage.

Until a man recognizes the truth of his own innate power and worth, he is in a cage. The bars are constructed of fear. This fear is most often refined into thoughts about what others think of him, or doubts concerning his own worth. Sometimes it is manifested as a fear of succeeding too much. The first step to seeing the bars on the cage for what they are - bars - is to call into question one's own assumptions concerning the nature and purpose of life.

Most of us, and for the sake of this post I'm going to presume it to be true for you (as it's consistent with my observations of you so far), assume that there is someone 'out there' who has a better handle on things than we do individually. Whether this be conceived as a "god" or a "superconsciousness" or some other uber-entity, we derive no small comfort from thinking that there is someone at the wheel of the universe, so to speak. The truth is, we're living in a virtual reality designed for the purpose of forgetting and then remembering that we are I AM.

That's right, you are that unmistakable self-knowing presence in yourself that asks, that looks, that observes. My virtual reality is particular to me, just as yours is particular to you. In plain fact, there is no way to prove to you that I am real, and in your world I may just be a simulated intelligence, a talking prop, just brought in at the right moment to tell you this stuff. I may as well be that as far as you are concerned; as far as that should influence your decision to regard or disregard the information I'm passing on to you. As the Buddha said, "Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings -- that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide."

I am about to pass on to you some information that is supremely kind and supremely conducive to the good, benefit, and welfare of all beings.

The universe is orderly. You might think that is obvious beyond mention, but I mean to say that there is One that creates that order, and that you are that One. Just as I am, just as everyone is. I AM creates this order. Chaos, rather than being a natural state, is in actuality an illusion created for the purpose of the exercise I've been talking about. The order that is created does not misbehave itself. What is manifested is exactly what has been planned (as you already know, all time exists at the same instant, and what we call the passage of time is a convenient illusion maintained for the sake of not having everything happen at once.), as no force or entity can thwart the will and intent of the One. (please, everyone, spare the remarks about Neo. This is a different order of being altogether)

In this orderly universe, there are many experiences to be experienced. We have a habit of calling them 'lifetimes' ever since the popularization of the concept of reincarnation in Western society. These experiences are all preplanned, and exist solely for the purpose of the One developing ever-greater self-knowledge. The One can know everything objectively but itself, so it must experience itself subjectively. Through the experiences of Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman, the One now knows more about itself, as it has experienced the event through both viewpoints. This can be extended to all the "indwelt" people on the face of the earth. What's "indwelt"? It means possessing an egoic sense of self, in this context. Those who are not indwelt are animated props whose purpose it is to provide a full, rich and convincing experience for the indwelt. Contrary to the belief of some, this does not make them less valuable. On the contrary, those who are not indwelt are pure Buddhas, doing as they do out of pure motive with no thought for self. In fact, it very well could be that the entire world exists purely for my (or your) edification, and that you live every day surrounded by Buddhas who have only your best interest at mind. There is no way to prove otherwise.

(cont.)

I think white men are worried about competition. The black men I know are smooth, bright, articulate, creative, talented, and beautiful. It's most likely this fear was responsible for the prohibition we're not allowed to talk about on ATS.

I don't know what white women think about black women. I've found black women to be more loving toward me though.

BTW, I'm a white male.