The Trayvon conversation that ended my 8 year friendship.

A couple of days ago my friend posted some more Zimmerman stories on his facebook and I simply responded "guilty of what exactly"? He said nothing, I said nothing further. A day later he posted another article and I made another comment. The argument posted below was the first time he and I ever exchanged words. We met in a night club eight years prior and were really good friends. All of this has changed.

So why am I bothering to post this you may ask? Because. This whole Zimmerman fiasco is tearing us apart. It's created a storm of animosity and driving a wedge between friends and family all because of the media stirring the melting pot of trust. I will say for the record I don't believe this was a racially motivated event (which you will notice in the argument). I never intended on it becoming so heated and I always thought my friend was cool enough not to make it anything more than it was. Boy was I wrong. I will also admit I lost my cool as well and I am not completely not at fault either. But it just escalated and escalated over two days. So here you go, this is what the Trayvon Martin case has done to our society.


Me: This was not a racially motivated incident. The media wants you to believe this. The Obama administration wants you to believe this. While most things in life are black & white, this is not. While stating the obvious is typically unnecessary, the obvious must be stated. Zimmerman is not white. Why do I feel at times I am the only person walking the earth without the veil of convoluted obfuscation draped over my eyes. This incident was merely a case of bad choices. Both parties are equally guilty of bad choices. There are two other guilty parties. The black community and uncle tom. For listening and buying into the media's rhetoric and feeding into a non-existent phantom race war.

Him: _____, you can believe want you too believe. But guaranteed if the roles were reversed, or if some cute 17 year old white girl got gunned down by a gang banger that person would be in an electric. These facts are backed up by statistics. The kid armed with en skittles and ice tea was at fault because the guy armed with a glock who was told by 911 not to follow was in danger. Give me a [snipped].break and pull your head out your arse.

Me: No need to be rude _____. You're looking at it completely from the side the media wants you to. There isn't one shred of evidence that this was racially motivated. None. Instead of subjectively forming opinion's out of emotional responses you could objectively try to ask if you're even being logical. "Armed with skittles" sounds just like the regurgitated media rhetoric. What does skittles even have to do with this other than to somehow plant the seed in the minds of zombies that Trayvon was nothing more than a cute innocent kid.

Far from the truth. The argument if roles were reversed, a different outcome would have ensued is a fallacy. You don't know if it would or wouldn't and to say you do would be illogical. As for who's at fault, they both are. Don't put words in my mouth please. If Trayvon carried on home and had not come back to punch Zimmerman in the nose, then this wouldn't have played out the way it did. I sure hope I don't have to explain the meaning of "keep your hands clean". Another point I want to touch on, 911 told him not to follow and he didn't. Trayvon came back to the car. Get your facts straight, then you can distort them as you please. Instead, all I am seeing is hate charging more hate. The actual facts in this case have nothing to do with "if the roles were reversed" yadayada. The facts show two people making bad choices. Bottom line. It's the Martin advocates who want this to be racially charged. Lets blame the white man for the mistake of an Hispanic that had nothing to do with racism. Just stop.

Him: First of all, don't tell me to not be rude. You come on here trolling and talking about your version of the truth which to me I find absolutely revolting. Don't expect me to speak nice about this topic to anyone Bottom line, kid with skittles and ice tea was shot by the man armed with a glock.

Me: Trolling? Really dude? It's only trolling since my view doesn't fit your paradigm I see. I'm opening discussion on something YOU posted on a PUBLIC FORUM. I'm expected to sit back and keep my mouth shut or else I'll be deemed a troll? So you hand out troll cards as much as you use the race card it seems instead of actually having an intellectual discussion with the exchange of ideas. You can be passionate as much as you like on the topic, but if that means you have to be rude to those who disagree, then your the one with their head up their ass. Can't separate emotions from facts then turn on those who can. Whatever.

Him: Yes. Trolling. This is the second time you have tried to debate me about this topic. First time I ignored you because yes, I feel passionate about this. And I guess you didn't get the god damn hint in the first place. So you want to defend that guy, be prepared take some venom and heat along with it. Don't like it, Don't f'n talk to me about the topic. It's pretty cut and dry when it comes to this.

Me: _____, it's called debating. Don't want to debate? Fine. I hold no animosity. But if I see controversial topics flash by and I have an opinion, its my right to say it. Regardless of how condescending you want to be about it. No need to get pissy about it. Hate begets hate and your falling for it.

Him: You want to debate fine. It's infuriates me too no end that the man with the gun is considered by some as the victim. And the victim who was unarmed is called the instigator of this event. The man that was told by the 9-11 operator to "not follow" this kid. And then was heard saying "they always get away". This guy had mind made up this kid did something. Fine. So he had his suspicions. He's part of the neighbourhood watch program. What part of "watch" did he not understand??? Apprehend, confront, accost, fight and shoot is not part of the mandate. Maybe if he didn't want his ass whooped he should have listened to the 911 operator. No he wanted to be a vigilante. And as for the news none of this would have come to light until the media asked questions. He wasn't even charged. Now you want to talk about the law, lets talk about Florida and the south. Florida. The same place where Kacey Anthony got away with murdering her child. The same place where a black women was sentenced for 20 years who shot a man who was assaulting her and afforded the same stand your ground law as Zimmerman. You can argue with me till your blue in the face but as far as I'm concerned Zimmerman got away with at least manslaughter. He didn't have a badge. He was not a cop. He went looking for trouble and shot this kid.

Me: First, that story about the woman who got 20 years is another social media white wash. It has no comparison to this one. The woman already had prior assaults charges and the moment she ran out to get her gun and return, was the moment she forfeited her chance at the stand your ground clause. Her goose was cooked. It's not even the same thing. Second, I still fail to see where this was racially motivated. Yes Zimmerman was overzealous. I'm not disputing that. I can also agree with involuntary manslaughter, but the jury was forced to go all in or nothing. The prosecution's error. Third, who exactly are you mad at? Zimmerman? The system? The Jury? (continued....)

reply to post by FlySolo


If it's any more than one choice then you have to ask who's really to blame? Can't be all of them. Right from the very get-go when the story broke, the media portrayed Trayvon as some small kid. They touched up pictures, lightened Zimmerman's face to make him look more white, lied by omission regarding Martin's length of suspensions from school. CNN referring to Zimmerman as a "white hispanic" in one of their articles.

Him: Wow. Getting your gun to protect yourself from a man who you have a restraining order against and is different. I guess if she was wearing a short skirt she deserved to be raped. Are you listening to yourself??
Me: why do you gotta be such a friggen smart ass. The f-ing difference is: In August 2011, a judge rejected a motion by Alexander's attorney to grant her immunity under the "Stand your Ground" law. According to the judge's order, "there is insufficient evidence that the Defendant reasonably believed deadly force was needed to prevent death or great bodily harm to herself," and that the fact that she came back into the home, instead of leaving out the front or back door "is inconsistent with a person who is in genuine fear for her life." Do you even read or do you suck up every sensationalized news story as gospel? [snipped].man, question things. Yes, 20 years seems harsh but that's the minimal sentence. FOR EVERYBODY. There's no different laws for different races, they're just LAWS. She wasn't in the middle of getting her head smacked on the street so stop whining with your apples and oranges. I already said the stand your ground law didn't apply earlier to her so her goose was cooked. The rape comment is where I think you're being a total goof. Try some class man.

Him: Dude. Please. Stop talking to me about this. You have your opinions. I have mine. The rape comment is a correlation to you BLAMING THE VICTIM. This has never been a debate. If you think any of this had nothing to do with race, inequity and injustice ina system in Florida and the south which has chronically marginalized blacks by voter suppression, biased police, and social policy which targets black people who are already ghettofied by previous policies of inequity then you are truly in my opinion blind. And if you think the half-Hispanic/half Jewish Zimmerman didn't target this kid because of the colour of his skin, your also downing your ration of Jim Jones kool-aid. Who f'n cares if he was suspended from school. Is that a punishable offence by death? Maybe in Florida. If its not now it will be. If you think I'm being a goof that's your issue. Not mine.

Me: The rape comment was your pathetic attempt to say I agree with men who rape women because of their clothes. A-hole. poo flinging ad hominem attack based on nothing. I'm actually revolted you would even attack me like that.

Him: Did you just f'n say you're revolted??? [snipped]. you! You come on here, equally blaming this kid for getting shot by that goddam clown and YOU'RE revolted??? You bring in some pathetic conspiracy theory and you're revolted??? You tell me to open MY EYES when this kids reality is something I have when I lived and you're revolted??? You know I was wrong telling you to uncork your head from your ass. Please re-insert back into your ass because obviously you are clearly not understanding the gravity of anything you are saying to me.
Him: Here. Chew on this since you like to throw out facts to defend your opinion. And if you feel the need to discuss this with me further, don't. (statistic s of white vs black stand your ground cases)
Me: No. [snipped]. YOU for inferring I blame rape victims!!!! Get that through your head dumbass. I came here with facts. You want to call me out and accuse me of something which would normally get your nose punched in. You better careful in choosing your words. You're right, this isn't a debate. This is just you throwing insults while patting yourself on the back thinking you actually have something intelligent to contribute. Now I know where you stand. In goddamn la-la land. As for your stupid statistics, it shows you're mad the system. In my defense, I never said there wasn't anything wrong with the system. I just said in this case Zimmerman is not guilty of racism. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. You fail miserably. On all counts. Go back to sleep. Clearly, you're not right in the head.

Him: "I'm not right in my head"? Zimmerman is not a racist? "Now you know where I stand"? And then you threaten me. Again I say, have you listened to ANYTHING you have said over the last day??? Just because you threaten me doesn't mean I'm going to back down. You don't understand the correlation and feel slighted, that's your issue. You can't get your opinions across, that's your issue. But don't threaten me.

Me: then shut your [snipped]. mouth. since I posted all you've done is personal attacks.
(continued.....)

Him: No. My page. My goddamn opinions. I told you not to get into this with me. You wanted to carry on. You think the attacks are personal that is your opinion and your problem. But when you want to threaten me, then we have a problem. I'm not going to shut up about this or anything else I feel passionate about. But now your crossing the line. Don't threaten me.

Me: *faceplam. You carried on. You sound like my 17 y/o son playing the blame game. Grow the [snipped]. up man. Like I'm talking to myself here eh? You have no role in this eh? Yes, I will punch you in the nose if you ever EVER say I blame rape victims to my face champ. Got it? Who the [snipped].do you think you are? Now, do we have a problem?

Him: For the 3rd time, stop threatening me. You just told me to shut the [snipped]. up. No. Again, the with correlation. You understand what correlation is all about right? You just blamed the shooting victim. And then when I make the correlation you get all pissy! I have no problem. Stop threatening me.
Me: ______, putting my anger aside. You can't accuse people of certain things and not expect cause and reaction. Them fighting words you've been spewing since yesterday. There is no correlation because that's not what I believe. That's YOUR skewed opinion. You sunk to an all time low to even go there with me, yet I'm expected not to get pissy about it? Give your head a shake man. Listen, I've had years of debating experience online and if you can't keep your head on while doing it, you lose credibility. Discuss the topic and not the poster. So for the 10th time, stop insulting me.

Him: Give my head a shake? First of all The instant you came on here with your opinions you lost credibility. The minute you said to "open my eyes" you lost all reason in my opinion. And when you started threatening me your opinions went the way of your credibility. Don't like the way I talk about this particular topic don't talk to me about it. When you start talking about conspiracy theories, Obama and this kid getting murdered, I think you need to give your head a shake. And for the last time I never accused you of anything.

Me: I still see you want to go on about this. Fine. Dude, you need to realize that the media has played everyone into this drama. Trayvon was no little kid and I can't understand why everyone is holding on to that fallacy. He was 6' fn 2 and a couple pounds lighter than Zimmerman. He was a BIG kid. The media doctored both photos of Zimmerman and Martin. Touching on my credibility... if stating facts diminishes my credibility, then it is you who is being unreasonable. I don't care how you talk re: this topic. It's when you start to use baseless straw man arguments, ad hom attacks and insults. If that is how you discuss topics, then yes, I have a problem with it. And what conspiracy theory? Show me one conspiracy theory I posted. One? Oh, that must be another baseless argument...

Me: You suggested I sympathize with rapists as some pathetic attempt at a correlation point. If you want. Trayvon isn't completely innocent. He was looking to do some serious damage to Zimmerman. Let me give you an real life anecdote. My son had his black berry ripped off by some meth head. He found him and came home to get his "rock in a sock" Needless to say, I had to give him a stern warning about leaving the house to go back. I forbade him to leave with it. The moment he decides to go back is the moment all bets are off. Trayvon made that same choice. He returned, circled the car and broke Zimmerman's nose. If that wasn't enough, he climbs on top of him and smashes his head. Yes, Zimmerman was a want-to-be cop but that doesn't excuse other's for taking the law into their own hands either. Zimmerman was a patrol in a gated community for a reason. There was lots of crime there. Did he make a poor judgement? Perhaps, but so did both men. And please, no one say Martin was a kid. I've got many points but I haven't been able to get to them cause I'm too busy cutting though your bull# first. This was never a "race" thing is all I'm saying. Just a bad set of circumstance. I'm floored that everyone is willing to have a race war over this.

Him: Are you done?
Me: Yes. Unless you've got a rebuttal.
Him: I could throw up all sorts of information like you just did. But it's a waist of time. You believe what you want. I'm not looking to change your mind. I really and honestly don't give a sh** about your opinion. I have mine. The unarmed kid is dead and you want to make excuses for this guy. You want a rebuttal? Read everything I wrote above.

Me: That's not a rebuttal. It's contradiction. And a lazy one at that. So far, I've seen nothing from you other than stand your ground statistics which doesn't prove this was racially motivated. Yes, there is something inherently wrong in America but the crux of the problem is defining what was Zimmerman's intent. You're mad at a system and are willing to condemn a man for it. (continued....)

. Take it up with the supreme court, not Zimmerman. Take it up with the prosecutors for not making it easier for the jury to come to guilty verdict. Take it up with the media for being disingenuous. Take it up with the jury whom must be all racists because they didn't find racism as a contributing factor. Why are you unable to put the shoe on your foot? The variables in this case could have swung in Martin's favor if Zimmerman had thrown the first punch. All he did was get out of his car and case someone. No crime committed. Stop acting like a victim. Tell me _____, what would you have done if you were on the ground getting your head beat in and you only had one choice. Ever been there? Have you ever had someone over top of you? I love how people with 0 experience in these situations are know-it-alls. You know sh**.

Him: Are u done?

Him: Do you feel like you've won the argument?

Him: Are you happy with yourself?

Me: Are you? God, you suck at this. You got nothing. Keep drinking the kool-aid then. I have won the argument. You've got nothing.

Him: You win?

Him: Anything to stop your ivory tower rants.

Me: ivory tower. lmao. Get over yourself and stop fueling the hate.

Him: Oh no. No hate here. Realistic view in my eyes. I grew up in a town where there was almost a race riot. Skinheads walked around with mein kampf in my school. Fighting for my life by these same skinheads attacking me and my friends. I've witnessed my daughter being called a n____ by multiple people. You keep talking about feuling the hate? Not to give in to the race war? I've lived it. And I live it everyday day. You can never live my experiences and i wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. You know NOTHING about me. So you get over YOURSELF. You haven't lived my experiences. Return back to your perch where you can claim your eyes are open.

Me: You're putting words in my mouth again. I've never attempted to say I know your life. I said you've never been in a fight. What you're giving into is the media propaganda. Remember the Tate murders? Manson tried this and it backfired but the media has a handle on it now. Remember that islamic parody about Muhammad that got all the muslims in an uproar? This is the same thing. This is what I've got my eyes opened to. If you actually took the time from the beginning and not get your panties in a bunch, you might actually see we may have common ground on this topic somewhere. Instead you've been spiteful and closed minded. Now, if you saw things the way I do, you would have the same cognitive dissonance. This is all I have been saying. There are two realities in this. The one you see on tv, and the truth. I don't know any other way to articulate that. If you don't get it by now then I really am just talking to myself.

Him: Holy [snipped]. Let me reiterate this again. I don't give a [snipped]. what you think _____. I'm not trying to put any words in your mouth. You're trying to convince me of something that I believe is not true in regards to a race war??? I've done my research as well. Everything you've spewed and regurgitated over the last day I have seen over the last year. But your the expert so I should believe you??? I've seen a lot of info in regards to why he should be guilty but I didn't put in here to bolster MY OPINION. You're comparing a pic of Muhammad that caused riots all over the world to this??? Last time I checked no reprisals have happened. So can you please stop. You've made your point.

Me: Holy [snipped].! You're nuts. You've got info to help your argument, yet you decline to use it. So wtf are you even bothering to talk to me about this then? Ignore me like you did the first time I broached the subject. If you don't give a # what I think then it shouldn't bother you to know you're an effing tool man. I never thought I would ever say that to you but your true colors really shine in this thread. Get lost and don't bother responding. Good day.

Him: Get lost and don't bother responding? Lol. What true colours is that _____? Please enlighten me. Because obviously you know me so well and this case so well and everything else so well you've been babbling about please tell me. Because from the beginning I said you were TROLLING. What part did you not understand?? What part of me saying in the beginning I feel you have no idea what you are talking about did you not get? Why should I participate in a farce of a debate with someone who's claimed his eyes are "wide open" about this case? And Again you get pissy. Which I'm not surprised about. I know you better than you think. And I think you defending this guy is more about you than you realize.

(end)

Well, there you have it. Pathetic isn't it? For both of us.

Separate and conquer.Works every time to take our eyes off the ball.

And that is just another reason I don't have facebook or tweet. I love debates, and often play devils advocate just for grins and giggles, but it is always in a face to face manner.

Ok, ATS is similiar, but if it gets over heated or stupid, I can just walk away and ignore it until another thread on ghosties or whatever comes up that sparks my attention.

But ATS members also tend to be a bit less contentious while debating and for the most part keep it civil thanks to the T&C's. I like that myself.

reply to post by FlySolo

Originally posted by FlySolo
Well, there you have it. Pathetic isn't it? For both of us.

Yes. I 'm sorry I didn't read it all as details are irrelevant, IMO. Two people should be able to have a difference of opinion on a subject without making the other one wrong. Look, if FlyersFan and I can remain friends through all this, you should be able to, too. Apologize for YOUR part in the argument and allow your friend to have his views.

If you allow this to DIVIDE you from your friends, then you're playing right into what you suspect the media of doing. Refuse to be played.

Those who are educated seem to agree and understand that Zimmerman was innocent. Those who are less educated and more apt to be persuaded by media lies and listen to a completely different story and then hold onto an imaginary belief that some innocent kid was murdered, which in fact is quite the contrary or so the evidence points out. Looking into facts and listening to the evidence takes time and effort. Not everyone is able to be open minded to this situation and see the truth for what it is.

Any jury was ready to hang this guy, so to have found him innocent of all charges appears to show that had Martin walked home or had not assaulted that crazy ass Cracka, he would be alive.

You are not the only one that has had it happen. For me, it was only old schoolmates and such, no one that I was really friends with anytime, let alone now. Good riddens, if they want to delete me for having an opinion they don't like, no skin off my back.

OP,

Your friend (ex friend) is an ass.

Friends can help each other. A true friend is someone who lets you have total freedom to be yourself - and especially to feel. Or, not feel. Whatever you happen to be feeling at the moment is fine with them. That's what real love amounts to - letting a person be what he really is. ~ Jim Morrison


Have to ask yourself what kind of "friend" this person really was, and what were you to them.........

reply to post by sonnny1


Exactly. I was shocked when he told me to pull my head out of my arse. He's never talked like that before and I could feel pure rage on the other end.

I think you need a facebook vacation. LOL

Stuff like this is just divisive.

Personally I'm now trying to avoid these conversations all together.
Not worth it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
if FlyersFan and I can remain friends through all this, you should be able to, too.

It's the GLEE factor. Does it every time.

BH and I actually started out in the same place before the trial.
I thought 'guilty of manslaughter'. BH thought Murder. (If I remember right).
During the trial, I flipped to 'not guilty' being the verdict and BH kept the guilty verdict.

I still think Zimmerman and Martin both have responsibility for what happened.
But the Manslaughter and Murder verdicts are outside of what the prosecution has proven.
IMHO

Once the race baiters stop manufacturing issues in the media, this story will disappear
with the next news cycle .... be it the birth of the 'royal baby' or when 'North West' makes
her first appearance ... or when that sicko freak of a kidnapper guy Castro goes to trial,
or the Boston bomber, or whatever ....

reply to post by FlySolo


Hopefully if you really love this person, you will get over it, and both of you can find some common ground to repair your relationship.

If not, then the person was never a true "friend" to begin with. MHO

reply to post by FlySolo


I read through that entire wall of text.
Let me tell you my opinion...

First, you have more debate experience so why did you get so upset?
You should've had more composure and less anger. I felt your emotion.
Tensions were high for quite a few paragraphs and regrettable things were said.
Should you have lost a friend over it? Absolutely not! But you could've ended it earlier too.

It seems to me that you were more angry than he was.
Everyone will have a different opinion on this matter...and if you believe your opinion to be the 5 best then don't allow it to be the very cause of an arguement. Your friend wasn't even looking for a debate.
Nor do I think he would've stood a chance.

Still...after all that, which didn't solve anything at all...the media actually won this battle with the veryy tactic that they are seeming to cause and spread with every over-sensationalized story.
More division and fighting.




btw, Datroof...obvious troll is obvious.
Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to this thread.

This is why i don't discuss Religion, Political Party or What i think about the current event in real life. It makes you look extreme and a snob.

Once i tried to explain why creationism makes less sense, i looked like a know it all snob... never tried it again.

All my answers for this is "i don't give a fruit" but online i voice my opinion.