Circularity of Confidence

A large part of what builds our sense of confidence is external enforcers. If society likes tall, dark and handsome men, tall, dark and handsome men more naturally develop confidence. But, still, if you have some of these qualities, dark and handsome, but short, your sense of confidence can be buttressed by what you do have. In other words, there is some objective "fact" about you, whether it be your height, looks, intelligence, muscularity, athletic prowess, etc that we try to "ground" a sense of confidence in.

But sometimes, you come by people who for new good reason at all have a sense of confidence in themselves. I'm not bashing these people - they are extremely fortunate to have genes and life experiences that have allowed them to "feel" so good about themselves. Nevertheless, there is a circularity to this confidence. There is nothing objectively appealing about this person - not particularly good looking, misshapen, overweight, short, average intelligence - yet they have this bustling, explosive sense of self.

These people demonstrate a phenomena I call circularity of confidence. They're confident, because, well, they're confident. Their sense of confidence - their ability to ward off thoughts of insecurity about other apparent disadvantages about themseles - derives from the fact that they are confident.

There is something hilariously paradoxical about this fact.

The environment cannot build confidence in you, nothing has the power to change you but you.

i believe ts all about how you react to the environment. There is a lot of fake confidence now a days by people who like you said society tends to like but that's usually shallow confidence and breaks down when truly tested. I also believe there is a difference in the show of confidence and actually being it most people learn how to fake it because society really prods you to do so and shuns you if you don't, in the end i think its all about how you react to things and the current state of mind when interacting with the environment. If you act it out enough it might eventually really become part of you but its less likely than actually understanding/being sure of yourself.

reply to post by Astrocyte

They're confident, because, well, they're confident.

Keen observation.

Originally posted by Astrocyte

These people demonstrate a phenomena I call circularity of confidence. They're confident, because, well, they're confident. Their sense of confidence - their ability to ward off thoughts of insecurity about other apparent disadvantages about themseles - derives from the fact that they are confident.

There is something hilariously paradoxical about this fact.

Would not everyone be confident if they could ward of thoughts of insecurity about themselves? It is indeed a paradox but many things are just by thinking about them.
I do like the label "circularity of confidence". I think there will be more people demonstrating this "phenomena" as people start to vomit up the dish being spoon fed by society.

they could be narcissistic, "the faith of the faithless, the confidence of those without confidence". - The Culture of Narcissism

they could be utilizing chemical alterations of personality.

Originally posted by TheomExperience

Originally posted by Astrocyte

These people demonstrate a phenomena I call circularity of confidence. They're confident, because, well, they're confident. Their sense of confidence - their ability to ward off thoughts of insecurity about other apparent disadvantages about themseles - derives from the fact that they are confident.

There is something hilariously paradoxical about this fact.

Would not everyone be confident if they could ward of thoughts of insecurity about themselves?

I think yes... and yet I think there is a limit (a personal limit) to how much a person can ward off. Especially if they are bombarded with 'a series of unfortunate events' in such quick succession, such that they don't have time to recover before the next onslaught. Like... run in with an 'evil' boss at work, followed by being dumped, followed by losing a loved one, followed by being robbed. Sort of like 'kicked when you're down' ...repeatedly. It's going to eventually take its toll, unless the person has an extremely strong support system of people to help rebuild. Sadly, some people only like to be around people who are upbeat... so you get the 'fair weather friend' types who vacate. Which can become yet another assault on the person's confidence.

Just thoughts. What do you think?

Originally posted by new_here
I think yes... and yet I think there is a limit (a personal limit) to how much a person can ward off. Especially if they are bombarded with 'a series of unfortunate events' in such quick succession, such that they don't have time to recover before the next onslaught. Like... run in with an 'evil' boss at work, followed by being dumped, followed by losing a loved one, followed by being robbed. Sort of like 'kicked when you're down' ...repeatedly. It's going to eventually take its toll, unless the person has an extremely strong support system of people to help rebuild. Sadly, some people only like to be around people who are upbeat... so you get the 'fair weather friend' types who vacate. Which can become yet another assault on the person's confidence.

Just thoughts. What do you think?

Yes i think the bombardment is possible and if a person is going to identify with the physical created image so strongly then insecurities are inevitable to deal with.
Perhaps a better understanding of reality and cause and effect would assist with people identifing better with themselves and less with other people.

An analogy would be if i saw myself as a piece of sand on the beach. There is so much other sand there that i could feel insignificant about my role as a piece of sand. If someone removed one piece it wouldnt matter, even a handfull wouldnt appear to make any difference, however if all the sand were to be removed the beach would have serious erosion problems. So the sand is both insignificant and completely valuable to the beach which is valuable to something else and so on and so forth.
I think people only see one half of the equation, either insignificant or completly valuable when self identifing and this causes many insecurities to arise.

Originally posted by Astrocyte
These people demonstrate a phenomena I call circularity of confidence. They're confident, because, well, they're confident. Their sense of confidence - their ability to ward off thoughts of insecurity about other apparent disadvantages about themseles - derives from the fact that they are confident.

There is something hilariously paradoxical about this fact.

Bad thoughts lead to depression and rejection from others, which might even affect work so I have to have some level of confidence. But at the same time I'm aware some people believe confidence must have reasons of which I don't have most of those valid reasons so I don't expect others to understand. I do expect people to accept as I have the right to confidence and happiness and besides I need to eat and have a roof too, can't go on a hungerstrike and allow myself to get killed or on the streets. Anyone who would want to is a bad person so I don't have to listen.

It's a good system, the only disadvantage is when the confidence is lost ofcourse. But usually it's because of someone, not something so one only needs to remember where one made an error in thought not disagreeing with another convincingly enough to oneself.

It's going to eventually take its toll, unless the person has an extremely strong support system of people to help rebuild.

That doesn't need to be, just remembering one may not use their own power against oneself. Like not beating oneself up over something each time because violence is bad and is not going to help you solve the problem. At least, I can think and process events less fast when bruises demand my attention (as in mental wounds) when I have the pain switch on. Like trying to go somewhere in a car with flats, you fix them first then you can go faster. You can get there without but it's less good and takes longer, people are going to look at you and your busted tires and if you are unlucky demand you go to some garage because they can't stand the amount of suffering you should have according to their system.

But when I know something is a problem I don't see why I need to feel anything more about it. I know it's there, it's not going to go away until I have dealt with it, it can't kill me immediately so don't see the problem.

reply to post by CesarO

The environment cannot build confidence in you, nothing has the power to change you but you.

That's partly true. As much as I'd like to say that is an "absolute truth", I don't think it is.

I know full well the power of positive thinking in effecting change in ourselves. One of the greatest tragedies I know of is the human being who struggles to express his emotions. The person who suppresses emotional arousal because he "fears" what others will think. This is a sad, horribly unfortunate thing, and it's due to societies malevolent influence that this person can't come to feel about himself in a positive way.

That being said, our environments influence us. Imagine this scenario. You go to the beach. All around you can't help but notice beautiful people. To your left is this gorgeous half asian, half white girl with an amazing body - large derriere, large bosoms. You can't help but be entranced by this girl. Then, you notice a 6'2, 180 lb guy in great shape, an attractive face and an enthusiastic personality come to her and strike up a conversation. All of a sudden both she and he look at you because you were gawking. What do you do? You turn away. You turn away because chances are, at that moment, in such a context, you are likely to become acutely aware of your physical shortcomings: you're short, overweight, with an unattractive face. You feel inferior to these people. This girl is "out of your league", and in this context in particular, you feel it more than you would have if you had met her some place else.

These situations happen all the time, and they're powerful because, well, we don't live in a cocoon. Other people exist, and oftentimes, whether we like it or not, were in competition with them and there in competition with us. In short, it's stressful. And stress impairs our ability to be confident i.e happy with ourselves.

reply to post by tgidkp


No, I disagree.

Confidence can be circular because it is so abstract. When someone has something "objective" about themselves which they can ground their sense of confidence in, we understand why that confidence is there. Superficial or not, if people are instinctively drawn to it, it's not circular.

Sanity, on the other hand, is not a purely subjective state of mind. In Nazi Germany, a society that without a doubt descended into a collective insanity, there were still "sane" people amongst them who grounded their sanity in something other than what everybody else believed. Sanity, in short, is grounded in objective truths. A basic objective truth is: do not do others what you wouldn't want done to you. This is a constant moral imperative that only a sane person can understand. If you don't understand it, than that means you aren't like almost everyone else. It implies the ability to empathize; it implies a "theory of mind" - an ability to put yourself in another persons state and extrapolate from your own experience what you would want.

reply to post by Astrocyte


Confidence is fearlessness. Being afraid of what others can see when they look at you is what makes one not confident. Who knows what they are seeing? You imagine yourself, you have made an image in mind of what you are and you fear that they see it. You do not know what they are seeing.
If you build an image in mind of yourself then you have judged yourself and therefore you are judged.
When one is judged one loses confidence.

reply to post by Astrocyte


well, i suppose that you can label someone else insane. but that does not make it so.

the golden rule is not grounded in objectivity. in fact, it is 100% subjective. what i would have done to myself is not at all the same as what you would have done to yourself.

i can think of nothing more abstract than sanity.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

You imagine yourself, you have made an image in mind of what you are and you fear that they see it.

1) External factors exist, and they possess some power over us. I gave a common example above about a not-so-good-looking person at the beach watching a hot half asian/half white girl talking to a 6'2 stud. Wouldn't this context "force" upon you a behavior that we could otherwise term "avoidant"? I say avoidant because, although you might be able to maintain a confident posture, you wouldn't be able to look squarely at that girl and guy because it would force into your minds awareness that ugly fact that you are not very good looking + you're short and overweight.

These are unfortunate facts that everyone has to live with. Obviously, I wish that people weren't so superficially influenced by appearances; but if you're tall, for some girls, for no practical reason whatsoever, this counts as something important. Its an emotional feeling they want. The texture of the image of tall guy and her gives her a feeling of some type of perfection or superiority around others.

That's height. Weight can have a more offsetting effect. When someone is "fat", there's just something gross and unappealing about it. But mainly, it doesn't look healthy.

And looks, although subjective, tend to follow a general trend. We all can more or less agree that so and so is good looking while another person has an unattractive face. This is not nice - I always hold my opinions to myself and would rather physically bite my tongue than hurt their feelings. Nevertheless, people are more influenced by facial attraction and body size and shape than they are willing to believe.

2) The above facts should modify how we think about confidence. True, we can't know what another person is thinking, but in that beach situation, it doesn't take a brain scientist - but rather, someone with an IQ that puts him above "mentally challenged", to understand that other people understand and feel the same that you do. If someone feels they have an advantage over you - height, body shape, looks, intelligence - they are likely to take advantage of it, either unconsciously, in how they look at you or think about you, or consciously, by some deliberately mean gesture.

3) That being said, still, I generally agree that if you have any obvious social disadvantages its best to blind yourself to them.

If this means pretending height, looks, build, intelligence, skill, doesn't really matter (even though, in fact, it does), than do it.

I'm 5'7. Short by North American standards (but not by Asian standards! ). I can always tell when another guy is blandishing his height like some sort of metal. He walks by me especially erect, and if we happen to meet eye to eye, he'll lower his eyes toward as if to say "oh, there you are!".

I find the entire thing ridiculous in itself. It shouldn't matter, but it does. Looks shouldn't matter (I've been fortunate in this department) but it does.

As to the subject of this thread. Having confidence because you've always known yourself to be confident, even though it is circular, is a life preserver. If this person began to ruminate about his disadvantages, what would become of him? He would be lost. He would fall into a depression. And then what? Being confident because your confident is a good reason to be confident, although it can still rankle superficial types who indulge in their own superior height/looks/build/intelligence/skill etc

reply to post by tgidkp

the golden rule is not grounded in objectivity. in fact, it is 100% subjective. what i would have done to myself is not at all the same as what you would have done to yourself.

Were not talking about sociopaths. Sociopaths don't function like everyone else. Most people, the majority of the planet, agrees that the golden rule is objectively valid. That so many of us can come to this view independent of one another, following the same syllogistic reasoning, shows that it is more than mere convention. It is an objective truth.

Originally posted by Astrocyte
A large part of what builds our sense of confidence is external enforcers.

That's a matter of opinion. I believe the opposite. I don't let external (en)force(r)s dictate what I feel. I'm not weak. I determine how I react to them, so they have to deal with that.

But sometimes, you come by people who for new good reason at all have a sense of confidence in themselves.

Really? The freaks.

Since when do you need a good reason? Being confident for sake of it isn't a mystery, it's a lifestyle choice. Being confident now, because you've made decisions in the past that have led to that feeling, isn't a mystery either. It's called being self-assured based on past experiences.

These people demonstrate a phenomena I call circularity of confidence.

Those people? Just how much in the minority are they, that they have to be referred to as "those people"? And you used the word "phenomena". You just don't get how some people don't let society overly effect them do you?

There is something hilariously paradoxical about this fact.

Amazing. You're over thinking all of this, you really are. You also might want to start by not stating that your opinions are facts. That's not having an open mind, and the only place that will get you is a place in the herd.

Originally posted by Astrocyte
reply to post by CesarO

 

The environment cannot build confidence in you, nothing has the power to change you but you.

That's partly true. As much as I'd like to say that is an "absolute truth", I don't think it is.

I know full well the power of positive thinking in effecting change in ourselves. One of the greatest tragedies I know of is the human being who struggles to express his emotions. The person who suppresses emotional arousal because he "fears" what others will think. This is a sad, horribly unfortunate thing, and it's due to societies malevolent influence that this person can't come to feel about himself in a positive way.

That being said, our environments influence us. Imagine this scenario. You go to the beach. All around you can't help but notice beautiful people. To your left is this gorgeous half asian, half white girl with an amazing body - large derriere, large bosoms. You can't help but be entranced by this girl. Then, you notice a 6'2, 180 lb guy in great shape, an attractive face and an enthusiastic personality come to her and strike up a conversation. All of a sudden both she and he look at you because you were gawking. What do you do? You turn away. You turn away because chances are, at that moment, in such a context, you are likely to become acutely aware of your physical shortcomings: you're short, overweight, with an unattractive face. You feel inferior to these people. This girl is "out of your league", and in this context in particular, you feel it more than you would have if you had met her some place else.

These situations happen all the time, and they're powerful because, well, we don't live in a cocoon. Other people exist, and oftentimes, whether we like it or not, were in competition with them and there in competition with us. In short, it's stressful. And stress impairs our ability to be confident i.e happy with ourselves.

Now that I can agree with. The best thing a person can do is not put themselves in situations where they know there is a good chance they will feel inferior. What's the point? The best example I can think of is that you would probably never see Ed Snowden on Venice Beach.

Knowing who you are, how you stack up against other people and knowing where to find people that won't stress you out with competitive behaviors is about the best thing a person can do for themselves.

Originally posted by new_here

Would not everyone be confident if they could ward of thoughts of insecurity about themselves?

I think yes... and yet I think there is a limit (a personal limit) to how much a person can ward off. Especially if they are bombarded with 'a series of unfortunate events' in such quick succession, such that they don't have time to recover before the next onslaught. Like... run in with an 'evil' boss at work, followed by being dumped, followed by losing a loved one, followed by being robbed. Sort of like 'kicked when you're down' ...repeatedly. It's going to eventually take its toll, unless the person has an extremely strong support system of people to help rebuild. Sadly, some people only like to be around people who are upbeat... so you get the 'fair weather friend' types who vacate. Which can become yet another assault on the person's confidence.

Just thoughts. What do you think?

That's pretty extreme. If all that happened to me I would probably re-think the way I treat people. I'm a big believer in karma.

In the situation you described, I don't think anyone would come out of it still happy about everything. They would have to somewhat delusional if they did.

reply to post by Astrocyte


Every (most, just in case) living being propels itself through life. Everyone has to deal with being themselves their whole life, we must be our own best friend, we are all we truly have. So everyone has the right to not be confident, but be themselves, and accept being themselves, and this acceptance, or contentment with their existence may be confidence in themselves.

Confidence in oneself does not come only from appearence!!!
Perhaps I misunderstood, but it seems that is all you are refering to?

Many people have confidence in their skills, or in their intelligence.

It is possible to have confidence in either looks, skills, or intelligence, depending upon what kinds of values you were exposed to in your environment, growing up. That part, you may be right about. It depends upon what those around you value

In some circles of intellectuals, you find some common under currents- like the notion that one either has looks or brains, but not both. (this is often a product of anxious teens trying to feel better about themselves by deciding the better looking ones are more stupid- and they carry this on subconsciously through adulthood). In such a circle, a child who is good looking could end up with serious self confidence issues because his/her intellectual parents passed along that notion indirectly.

I've noticed that the deepest values you were conditioned with first in life never really leave you- they are the bedrock you build yourself on. If you grew up in an environment that taught individual worth is based on intelligence, than no amount of praise for your looks as an adult will give you a sense of worth. (and vice versa).

Originally posted by Taupin Desciple

Originally posted by new_here

I think yes... and yet I think there is a limit (a personal limit) to how much a person can ward off. Especially if they are bombarded with 'a series of unfortunate events' in such quick succession, such that they don't have time to recover before the next onslaught. Like... run in with an 'evil' boss at work, followed by being dumped, followed by losing a loved one, followed by being robbed. Sort of like 'kicked when you're down' ...repeatedly. It's going to eventually take its toll, unless the person has an extremely strong support system of people to help rebuild. Sadly, some people only like to be around people who are upbeat... so you get the 'fair weather friend' types who vacate. Which can become yet another assault on the person's confidence.

Just thoughts. What do you think?

That's pretty extreme. If all that happened to me I would probably re-think the way I treat people. I'm a big believer in karma.

In the situation you described, I don't think anyone would come out of it still happy about everything. They would have to somewhat delusional if they did.

Totally agree... and btw, all of that did not happen to me. But I did go thru a 'series of unfortunate events' for about 6 years... Evil Boss, sister died, marriage got rocky, illness, etc. I began to question all that I held true, wondering if there was anything I could trust to not beat on my sense of hope. Very stressful time, with not a lot of support/empathy. Looking back, I think no one wanted to see me like that. I'd always been the upbeat, unscathed one. The one who helped everyone else. My family didn't know what to do. I guess. Finally, it dawned on me it was up to me anyway. I had to find my own way back.

But finally, finally, I am seeing a new dawn. I am beginning to trust and find my happy.