Where was God Before He Created the Universe?

reply to post by windword

That doesn't make any sense to me. Does God arise from need?

Think about what God means to you in a practical sense, you have requests for things that may not happen naturally, but they are things that you feel that you need, like rain to come at the right time so your crops flourish and you have food, so you can live another year.
If there was no crops or rain or need for food, then God would be out of a job.

Is God a person?

That's built into the doctrine of the Trinity, that the godhead is made up of individual and distinct persons.

What is a normal person?

A normal person would be any person not feeling the need to be a God, which I propose would be the general situation without a universe.

How could God have been a person before there were people, planets or the universe?

"People" fit within a more closely defined genre, which includes things that can only exist within a universe. Obviously, since God is eternal, there were persons before the universe, they just were not people.

If God was a normal person before creation, was he in the company of other normal people?

That would be the definition, I think, of being "normal", that you are like the others.

Did he have parents and a family?

That would go beyond the realm of the immediate question, and would concern the definition of "eternal". Such as the question if eternal only applies to within normal universal time or if beyond that, it becomes irrelevant. If so, then there could conceivably (very likely and practically necessary) have been (family), but it is not presently knowable and what would be more pertinent is our involvement in the bringing about of a universe and how that was made to come into physical existence.

reply to post by DISRAELI

The question "where was he before" is effectively placing God within time, with a "before" and an "after".
It also, in a way, places God within space, by asking "where?"
But if both space and time are dimensions of the universe which God created, then God himself would not be included within them.
I suggest this makes the question invalid.

Only if you completely ignore the definition of a universe.
If you understand the universe as being a universe, then God would be included.
If not, then you ignore completely what a universe is, and your invalidation becomes invalid.
God is an active entity in the universe so that His "being" is in the universe, even if He is not a "being" in the classical definition.

reply to post by jmdewey60

If you insist on defining "universe" as "everything that exists, including God", then I'll just switch to a different term
I will now use the term "created world". This phrase is to be substituted in my previous argument, wherever I used the term "universe". Will that do?
God made the created world.
Space and time are dimensions within the created world.
Therefore God is not to be included within space and time.

(P.S. This narrower definition is actually the one implied by the title of this thread, which uses "the universe" as the term for what God created. Obviously God cannot be part of what he created)

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by windword

 

That doesn't make any sense to me. Does God arise from need?

Think about what God means to you in a practical sense, you have requests for things that may not happen naturally, but they are things that you feel that you need, like rain to come at the right time so your crops flourish and you have food, so you can live another year.
If there was no crops or rain or need for food, then God would be out of a job.

That's not "God". That's nature.

Is God a person?

That's built into the doctrine of the Trinity, that the godhead is made up of individual and distinct persons.

What is a normal person?

A normal person would be any person not feeling the need to be a God, which I propose would be the general situation without a universe.

So you think god evolved into a God out of a need from his creation?

How could God have been a person before there were people, planets or the universe?

"People" fit within a more closely defined genre, which includes things that can only exist within a universe. Obviously, since God is eternal, there were persons before the universe, they just were not people.

That's not at all obvious to me.

If God was a normal person before creation, was he in the company of other normal people?

That would be the definition, I think, of being "normal", that you are like the others.

Did he have parents and a family?

That would go beyond the realm of the immediate question, and would concern the definition of "eternal". Such as the question if eternal only applies to within normal universal time or if beyond that, it becomes irrelevant. If so, then there could conceivably (very likely and practically necessary) have been (family), but it is not presently knowable and what would be more pertinent is our involvement in the bringing about of a universe and how that was made to come into physical existence.

Right. It's not knowable. We don't know if there is a god, or if god actually exists or if god doesn't "exist" outside of existence with other "uncreated" godlike creatures that are normal persons. It's just as easy to accept that god is the universe and nothing more.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I don't think there was a beginning. Something does not come from nothing, and since the universe Is something, this something had to have always existed.

I have made a lot of 3D models for video games.
I have cars and boats and people and houses and roads and they all came out of my imagination.
Inside the video game they are very real, like I have programs within them that make them seem very real, like when the driver turns the car, his arm moves with the steering wheel, and the front wheels pivot, and they do so in a way where there are pivot points within the suspension where they seem to turn on, and the tires turn in relation to the speed ,and I built a dial on the dashboard where the needle points to exactly how fast the car is going in the game. I have brake lights that come on when I hit the brakes and headlights that light up.
The point of all of this is that I programmed the car itself and all the parts and how they work, and in the simulation it seems very real and acts real even though it is all the result of my pushing so many keys on my computer's keyboard, and there is no more reality or substance to it than that.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Will that do?

No.
The "created world" in not this little ball that you can look at from the outside because there is no "outside", since it includes everything, and keep that word in mind, "everything".

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

If God had to be "somewhere" before creation of existence, who created the "somewhere."

I contend that "God" does not exist if God is outside space and time, the ie: existence. It's the proverbial question, "Does zero exist?" Does zero encompass the total of everything, or is it a representation of nothing? Is nothing possible?

In my world, God is the total of everything, therefore we are a part of God. God = The Universe.

The who created the "somewhere" doesn't make sense. I think what people are missing is the fact that the universe is just another one of God's creations.

I know some don't believe the story, but according to Genesis God created the stars, which are apart of the universe, for without stars to gaze upon we wouldn't even know the universe was out there.

It almost sounds like you think that both God and the universe were created at the same. Although possible, I highly doubt that is the case.

reply to post by windword

That's not "God". That's nature.

Nature does not care about you and would just as soon make you into compost to feed a plant, as to make a plant grow to feed you.

That's not at all obvious to me.

OK, it does involve a step or two in logic, not something everyone is capable of.

Right. It's not knowable. We don't know if there is a god, or if god actually exists or if god doesn't "exist" outside of existence with other "uncreated" godlike creatures that are normal persons. It's just as easy to accept that god is the universe and nothing more.

To a lot of people, God does exist and that knowledge comes from a personal relationship with Him, sometimes involving serious miracles.
The universe is a beast with a behavior that makes it seem like it has a mind of its own, but it isn't more than that.
God is related to us and we are family with us as His charges.

reply to post by jmdewey60

No. The created world cannot include God, because God cannot be part of what he created.
Can a pipe travel through itself?
Your definition only holds good if the creation doctrine is untrue, and the world did not need to be created.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

Will that do?

No.
The "created world" in not this little ball that you can look at from the outside because there is no "outside", since it includes everything, and keep that word in mind, "everything".

edit on 16-7-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

What is the universe expanding into? Where did this space begin and how large is it? Is it part of the univers will we get to the end of it?

reply to post by DISRAELI

No. The created world cannot include God, because God cannot be part of what he created.

"Created World" is a term you made up. The universe is all that there is, by definition, so there is nowhere else to be. Whatever mode of existence that existed before the universe came into existence, ceased to exist when there was the existence of a universe.

Can a pipe travel through itself?

That is an artificial construct as if there was something outside of the universe, which there isn't.

Your definition only holds good if the creation doctrine is untrue, and the world did not need to be created.

What definition?
There needed to be a universe for there to be people, where without a universe there was no existence as real beings, since there was nothing to "be" in.

reply to post by guitarplayer

What is the universe expanding into? Where did this space begin and how large is it? Is it part of the universe will we get to the end of it?

What is "expanding" is our consciousness of the universe.
Space is part of it, and there is no empty space. There is something everywhere and I don't think that there is an end to it, at least not permanently.
What concerns us is the part which we have a perception of and we need to be involved in a sort of "curing" process to "solidify" it, through our own consciousness and that means to come into harmony with the others of our kind.

reply to post by jmdewey60

You are basing your assumptions on "self-existing universe" theory, whereas I'm basing mine on the Biblical teaching of creation (which is also the premise of the question being asked in this thread)

The teaching that "God made X" (as at the beginning of Genesis and John) necessarily involves a distinction between God and "X". God cannot be part of X, because God cannot be part of something which he has made
So stop quibbling about terms.
I am talking about whatever term you want to apply to the predicate of the sentence "God made X"..

reply to post by DISRAELI

You are basing your assumptions on "self-existing universe" theory, whereas I'm basing mine on the Biblical teaching of creation (which is also the premise of the question being asked in this thread)

Nope, I didn't say anything about the universe coming about without some sort of creation process that is instigated by a higher consciousness.

The teaching that "God made X" (as at the beginning of Genesis and John) necessarily involves a distinction between God and "X". God cannot be part of X, because God cannot be part of something which he has made
So stop quibbling about terms.

Speaking of premises, the word, Universe, is in there. You are the one trying to ignore the definition of a universe.
If you want to quote the Bible, then John says that the light of the world was the Logos, which means that the Logos was in the world. God was in the world, reconciling the world to Himself.

I am talking about whatever term you want to apply to the predicate of the sentence "God made X"..

God existed in some way that ceased to exist. However that was, that situation changed as the universe appeared around Him. There is no going back to that former mode.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
]God existed in some way that ceased to exist. However that was, that situation changed as the universe appeared around Him. There is no going back to that former mode.

Oh, I see. Emanation theory.
Whereas my arguments and the premise of this thread are based on creation theory.
The Bible consistently assumes an absolute distinction between God and the creatures that he made, so you're losing contact with the Bible on this one.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
[If you want to quote the Bible, then John says that the light of the world was the Logos, which means that the Logos was in the world. God was in the world, reconciling the world to Himself

Misleadingly selective quotation.
John says first that the LOGOS came into the world.
Which implies "from outside".

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by guitarplayer

 

What is the universe expanding into? Where did this space begin and how large is it? Is it part of the universe will we get to the end of it?

What is "expanding" is our consciousness of the universe.
Space is part of it, and there is no empty space. There is something everywhere and I don't think that there is an end to it, at least not permanently.
What concerns us is the part which we have a perception of and we need to be involved in a sort of "curing" process to "solidify" it, through our own consciousness and that means to come into harmony with the others of our kind.

If the universe is expanding and by all evidence it is expanding what is it expanding into? Before the big bang what was the original speck point origin expanding into? You say space what is your definition of space? Is space infinite is matter infinite? If it is infinite how can that be? There was only so much original matter to begin with. What compressed it into the original speck with so much energy that would have to have more energy to compress it and it would have after it’s release. So where did this original force of compression come from and where did the matter come from that which was compressed?

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

Personally, I think the question is irrelevant. "Where was God in space and time before space and time existed? Nowhere! If God is outside of time and matter, not made of time and matter, the question doesn't apply nor does it matter "where" god was.

Sure it matters where god was. Be it a physical being or a quantum wave, there had to have been a place for him to exist in. We can't say he existed in a place of nowhere - that is illogical and impossible.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


The way I read it, he was voted off some ancient, before american idol reality show.

He decided to create a show of his own with his own twist on reality soon after.

S&F for asking the difficult questions. Good job, OP.

I don't have a satisfactory answer that I can explain without strange theories which lack evidence.

God could've been "nowhere," but in effect, if he was all that was, he would've simultaneously been "everywhere."

God was God. It's like asking what color is sound. It's a question that cannot have a logical answer because it is itself not a logical question to ask.

EDIT: If you want to know where God existed before creation, it would first be helpful to know where God exists now.