Are women being turned into livestock again?

I had a vasectomy 15 years ago, so guess that means i'm guilty of "aborting" my sperm going by the standard that the contraceptive pill is deemed the same as abortion.

Isn't there a birth control pill that a man can take? I could swear that I read somewhere a while back that there was a birth control pill that men could take. I realize some men might not want to take it, but if it was as accurate as the one that woman take then I would not be afraid to give it a try.

Originally posted by Bikereddie
I had a vasectomy 15 years ago, so guess that means i'm guilty of "aborting" my sperm going by the standard that the contraceptive pill is deemed the same as abortion.

More power to you, you took control over your body to help with our over populated earth and you are a resposible person.

Sometimes a man has to do what a man has to do to help his partner with the burden of birthcontrol.

And can you please leave God out of this, he has nothing to do with the mess we have done to this earth in his name.

If God is punisher, I bet he is going after everybody that used him as an excused to pursue their own personal agendas to manipulate others.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by marg6043]

Wait, wait, wait, not so fast.

Let's not jump from apples to oranges to orangatangs. You said--

Ya know, this is only my opinion, but well, seems to me that one of the biggest problems is that man didn't leave one small thing to god. When you surrender your life to christ, well, what did that consist of, just words muttered...or did they mean something, like, umm....you were placing everything in his hands, and allowing him to lead you and have a certain amount of control over ALL OF YOUR LIFE.

...Did you interpret surrendering your life to Christ that you would HALT ALL THINKING about the cause-and-affect relationships in your life--that you would simply--slavishly--allow yourself to be dominated by circumstances? That is to say, you gave up your ability to REASON? Uh-oh.

Welll, what happened to dear wifey there? Doesn't seem that you have left her at the alter, for God to handle, like your finances, employment, and all the other little tidbits of life you put faith in God to handle.

...I--uh--don't abandon my life "for God to handle." That's how Evil takes over. We have to be vigilant, "wise as serpents" and "innocent as doves." That takes a lot of thought, planning and "checking with God" in prayer. Effort.

Name me one church that has not got women in a position where technicallly the women is under the lordship of her husband.

...It's true, every church has both sheep and goats; wheat and tares; wolves and lambs. Only by thinking clearly about effects you get and outcomes that come from behavior will anybody be able to do what Jesus said to do: "You will know the tree by its fruit. You cannot get rotten fruit off a healthy tree nor healthy fruit off a rotten tree."
...It's really clear that sin BEGETS bad effects. Ah hah! There's your clue. The people in the church who are lawless are creating bad effects for themselves; it's not that they're being persecuted for holding to what is True and Right and Innocent.
...But you have to be able to tell the difference; and that demands the skills of the Holy Spirit to PARSE Truth in your life.

Before you start knocking around 40-50 year old women not having enough faith to attempt to bring a 9-10lb bably into this world, well, you better ask yourself why you don't trust God to lead your wife into the life HE wishes for her to have, but would rather coerce her with threats from the heavens.

...Excuse me. I had my last baby at the age of 42 when my marriage was crumbling. And we got through that too, by the Grace and Mercy of God. He is now a wonderful young man, despite all the trouble I had to deal with. I never got pregnant except that God and I had taken the time to talk it over, first.

..."Act in haste; repent in leisure."

[edit on 9-11-2004 by Emily_Cragg]

Sex is only a sin if your particular rule book says it is. If you leave all the human-created frosting off of it, sex is a bodily function. One that all living things have a drive for, like eating and sleeping. Humans use all kinds of artificial means to influence all the drives we are born with - sleeping pills, coffee - even putting salt on your food is artificially manipulating our appetites.

Humans are born naked, so we learned to wear clothes to circumvent freezing to death. But I guess the bible is against nudity, so that's ok.

Humans are born from sex, to have sex, so we learned to control the results of sex and prevent or assist pregnancy. But the bible says sex is bad, unless done within a narrow set of rules, so that's bad.

Yes, there are consequences to every action. Does that mean if you forget to wash your hands after wiping, you should forgo medical technology and die of a curable disease?

--Saerlaith

A lot of people has forgoten that humans are part of the animal kindom is just that the old good book make us better that beast.

We are a creation of a higer being but that as far as it goes.

Men has make himself like god and to make itself more like god it also created Jesus as a son of God, a god with human charasteristics.

Religion is sure to be something else.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by marg6043]

This makes me sick, I can't believe some of you...

These church people sure don't know much about history....

You would think they would learn from the past....

If I ever end deciding to get on the pill and it's denied ... I'm going to be jumping over the counter to make sure that guy has swollen balls for a very #ing long time, and I guess i'll just have to help myself.... What is this world coming to...

Originally posted by Bikereddie
I had a vasectomy 15 years ago, so guess that means i'm guilty of "aborting" my sperm going by the standard that the contraceptive pill is deemed the same as abortion.

As celibate (and happily so) - where does this leave me then ?
No better probably, for passing over the 'opportunity', and being selfish etc...

I'm of the view that I'm not being used by my DNA - all that stuff about falling in love, building a home, having kids - it's all nonsense - it's just a trick played on you by 'your' DNA looking to survive another generation by fiddling about with your body chemistry and making you feel "emotions".

I guess being an atheist (& an evolutionist too, whilst I'm at it) helps too, as I don't need to comply with any externally derived "moral duty" either ...

Apologies to Bikereddie, this wasn't really in any way a response to your posting, but there was a nice link there about being "guilty of aborting" that I wanted to build on: Hope you're ok with that

[edit on 9-11-2004 by 0951]

Emily, You had asked how many couples unable to have children cant find a heathy child to love? Do you have any notion of how many parentless children there are out there already? These couples that you talk about could definetly adopt or foster many children IF they are responsible people in the eyes of the goverment and IF they can afford to adopt.
Another point of reference to your question is that if god knows and does everything that we need then these couples that you talked about shouldn't have children at all in the eyes of god, right?

Another thing, since you have so much faith in gods plan then why is it that god has allowed us lowly humans to create birth controle in the first place for if he is all knowing and all powerfull surely this abolmination would not have been allowed by him?

Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by Saerlaith
Oh boy! Don't go there

There is a story in the bible about a man, Onan, I think, wasting his seed on the ground. God cursed or punished him for it (don't have my bible with me, so I can't quite remember the details). That is supposedly where the whole "masturbation is bad" school of thought came from. If the folks who want a return to old testament law keep at it, I'm sure even condoms will be sinful.

Exacty my point Saerlaith, you can not find anything about women's condenation of having a womb in the bible but you can find the sin's of spilling the seeds without a womb.

And again religous fundamentalist interpret their "believes" to their own agenda just like a politician.

They need to be stop.

Women out there don't you get it, if you are stuck with a house full of brats you will be stuck at home and your years of education and your dreams of becoming somebody will die, because society and religious fundamentalist wants to dominate you. They are in a mission of taken any rights women have and they one women to be dependant on a man.

[edit on 9-11-2004 by marg6043]

[edit on 9-11-2004 by marg6043]

um before u bash all men out there and have a pity party why dont u ask yourself why women get the children by default in paternity suites? I am a father that had to fight for my kids and fathers that want their kids cannot always get them even if they can provide a better home, alot of women dont want to go back out there and earn a living, some really want to stay at home and raise the kids and collect the 400-600/month per child from a man that only gets 1000-1500 a month, in california a woman gets a child without question unless she has a criminal background, im sorry but your fantasies about women being treated unfairly has been outdated for a while, we started trying to make things right and fair and then the corrupt and greedy types saw a chance to use the system to make their lives easier, raising a child is better then having a boss for some women. In fact about the only way a woman cannot get help from a man is if she doesnt remember or know who gave her a child or hes a rapist (and im sorry that ever happens) and if she cant find that man the government gives low if not free housing and medical care and food,, i dont understand where this is hard on women

TrueLies expostulated the following
This could be a conspiracy!

Think about it...........The white man runs America the white man doesn't want any other race above him and because white people are becoming a minority in this country they could be getting scared thus enforcing abortion laws and contraceptive laws to spawn more white folks...

I know it sounds out there, but so does a muslim or mexican president.... (to them, not me I could care less who the prez is)

As a 'white man' I find your ignorance of the stratified social status of the American population quite disturbing. Who runs this country is not and has not been based on Race for quite some time. It is Economics, pure and simple the richer you are - the more weight you have to throw around in society. Look at the number of 'Rap' stars that are now multi-millionaires making 100's of millions per year. If the situation were as you state then the first law relative to the subject that would be enacted would be more in line with Mandatory Abortion for unwed mothers and mandatory contraception for unmarrieds. That is how you control a 'minority' population, and in the case of the U.S. the 'minority' population is any person without a huge positive cash flow and net balance to their name.

Emily whispered
Why, you think God doesn't KNOW when the Planet is "filled" ... or how to renew a race that is overwhelming the eco-system?

Could it be that the allowance of Evil always seems to do the "pruning" ... The "allowance" of Evil to operate for a time.

The first mistake all humans made was in anthropomorphizing God.
'Good' and 'Evil' are perceptual in nature.

As to the reduction in Women's rights and place in society, women have the perfect position to counter this by teaching their children a more worldly view and not allowing their wills to become subjugated to the demands of the plainly ignorant and soon to be forgotten threads of the species.

I know you are proud and all loving of your god. But there is a problem, and that problem is not all Americans are Christians. I myself are among the NonChristian Americans. I can not and I will not have my life ran by the Christians. The way I see it the Christians have no right to try to make Christians beliefs into American law.

How about any of you females on this thread explain to us exactly what rights you had 5 years ago that you don't have right now.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a group that is so alarmist for so little reason as the left wingers here on ATS. Sheesh!

Cattle? Get real. Want to see women get treated like cattle, you need to be looking to places like China, Africa, or any Islamic state you care to name.

The status of women in the US is the amoung the highest in the world, though some in Europe are probably on the same or slightly higher level. Nowhere do women have as much power and freedom as in Western Countries. This is one of the reasons Islam cannot allow itself to coexist with our culture. This is one of the major things they fear and is a big reason they fight us and feel they have to spread Islam everywhere. Free, powerful women scare the crap out of weak, cowardly men.

I don't think women in the US have anything to worry about as far as rights go. I don't believe abortion will be outlawed, and I don't think it should be, although it might be a more involved process to get one and the govenment probably won't pay for it, which I'm not sure is such a bad thing.

No one is going to outlaw birth control. There is no practical reason to do so and many, many reasons not to.

Again, get real, folks. Just like on the left, the most extreme elements of the right wing are often the most vocal. The Christian crazys don't have near as much power as you worry they do. Almost everyone I know personally voted for Bush, and none of them did it for any kind of religous reason or over strong feelings about abortion and women's rights.

I posted a similar thread ( www.abovetopsecret.com... ) yesterday with a different link so, maybe it belongs here
www.prevention.com...

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
How about any of you females on this thread explain to us exactly what rights you had 5 years ago that you don't have right now.

The status of women in the US is the amoung the highest in the world, though some in Europe are probably on the same or slightly higher level. Nowhere do women have as much power and freedom as in Western Countries. This is one of the reasons Islam cannot allow itself to coexist with our culture. This is one of the major things they fear and is a big reason they fight us and feel they have to spread Islam everywhere. Free, powerful women scare the crap out of weak, cowardly men.

I don't think women in the US have anything to worry about as far as rights go. I don't believe abortion will be outlawed, and I don't think it should be, although it might be a more involved process to get one and the govenment probably won't pay for it, which I'm not sure is such a bad thing.

Almost everyone I know personally voted for Bush, and none of them did it for any kind of religous reason or over strong feelings about abortion and women's rights.

Snipped for space -

Some cattle have fancier barns than other, they're still cattle.

So if birth control isn't actually outlawed (yet) what do you do when the only pharmacy in town is Walmart, you don't have a car, and the only doctor in town that takes payments (cuz you're unemployed and have no healthcare) thinks birth control is immoral?? You're kind of stuck, aren't you?

And there are plenty of posts on ATS detailing how Bush & Co. are lining up with religious conservatives to change how this country is governed. You & yours may not have voted for Bush on religious issues, but he got your vote nonetheless, and is going to use it as he sees fit. And you may think "women in the US have anything to worry about as far as rights go", but that is nothing for me to base my future on. The articles I've read about Bush's "faith" make me "think" he means nothing but harm to anyone not sharing his beliefs.

--saerlaith

I'm a Christian, but I'm not arguing with you. There is absolutely no Scriptural basis for the kind of political power plays that the White House is inflicting on the Diverse Society which the United States of American comprises.

He has no right to inflict his values on other Covenants. There is no ROOM in the Sermon on the Mount for his kind of tyrannical self-rightness.

But what I would choose for myself is my own business. What is appropriate to me is what is safe for me. And that's how I handle my life, day-to-day.

Isent there also the posibility of men turning into little more the cattle also?

Originally posted by Saerlaith
So if birth control isn't actually outlawed (yet) what do you do when the only pharmacy in town is Walmart, you don't have a car, and the only doctor in town that takes payments (cuz you're unemployed and have no healthcare) thinks birth control is immoral?? You're kind of stuck, aren't you?

I'd say it's not my or this country's responsibility to make it safe for you to get laid. Excuse me if that sounds harsh, but if you are unemployed you should have other things on your mind than sex. No, it's not our responsibility. It's your responsibility to excercise some control over your reproductive capabilities if its not a good time for you to be reproducing.

And there are plenty of posts on ATS detailing how Bush & Co. are lining up with religious conservatives to change how this country is governed.

Yes, and most of those posts on ATS are by alarmist liberals who still can't swallow the fact that more people didn't agree with their vision of our country's future and will latch onto anything at all to freak out about.

You & yours may not have voted for Bush on religious issues, but he got your vote nonetheless, and is going to use it as he sees fit.

Yes, and if he wants his brother and his party to get them in 2008, he will use them wisely.

[edit added]
Oh yeah, I'll ask again. What rights did you have 5 years ago that you don't have now?
[edit end]

[edit on 9-11-2004 by Ambient Sound]

How can anyone, possibly see how contraception is abortion, there is no viable life without the mating of sperm an egg. May the powers that be save us from the MM.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

Originally posted by Saerlaith
So if birth control isn't actually outlawed (yet) what do you do when the only pharmacy in town is Walmart, you don't have a car, and the only doctor in town that takes payments (cuz you're unemployed and have no healthcare) thinks birth control is immoral?? You're kind of stuck, aren't you?

I'd say it's not my or this country's responsibility to make it safe for you to get laid. Excuse me if that sounds harsh, but if you are unemployed you should have other things on your mind than sex. No, it's not our responsibility. It's your responsibility to excercise some control over your reproductive capabilities if its not a good time for you to be reproducing.

And there are plenty of posts on ATS detailing how Bush & Co. are lining up with religious conservatives to change how this country is governed.

Yes, and most of those posts on ATS are by alarmist liberals who still can't swallow the fact that more people didn't agree with their vision of our country's future and will latch onto anything at all to freak out about.

You & yours may not have voted for Bush on religious issues, but he got your vote nonetheless, and is going to use it as he sees fit.

Yes, and if he wants his brother and his party to get them in 2008, he will use them wisely.

[edit added]
Oh yeah, I'll ask again. What rights did you have 5 years ago that you don't have now?
[edit end]

[edit on 9-11-2004 by Ambient Sound]

Well first of all, I'm employed and spayed, so this whole debate is more one of principle for me.

Since men don't get pregnant, their right to get laid is protected by default. Women need more than a right to get laid, as you so wittily pu it. They need the right of authority over their own bodies. Something easily provided by modern medicine.

If you (or your religious guidelines) held that killing animals for insulin was wrong, would you leave diabetics to suffer?

As for taking control over my reporductive capabilities, I have. But many other women cannot. Some women are raped, and that right there is enough to keep reproductive rights in the hands of women. Unless you are a woman, and have been sexually assaulted, don't bother telling me how extreme my point is. The statistics on rape are horrendous, but they are compiled by leftist liberal women, so are no doubt lies (that's sarcasm).

As for what rights I've lost in the past 5 years, and latching on to anything to freak out about, they kind of go together. I personally have done pretty good in life. Made more smart choices than stupid, and also am not out trying to exercise as many rights as the people running afoul of various government agencies.

But what I'm freaking out about is that now, with 4 more years of "leadership" by a man who openly works with people who want some kind of theocracy, those rights are being set up for removal. Sure it's all on paper now. The patriot act will never be used against law-abiding americans Unless of course those laws are changed to reflect some people's religion. Hence the "freaking out". Time to wake up and put the brakes to a theocracy. If it's all a bunch of lefty worrying, so much the better. I hate to think I am actually freaking out for good cause, because that means votes, rights, freedoms are all out the window. Maybe the sky is falling, but then again, maybe the British are coming.

Ambient Sound (and others sharing his views) you know dang well all the posts with good research that have crossed ATS. How can you say in all honesty that ther is nothing to worry about in regards to civil liberties?? Come on! The motto here is Deny Ignorance, isn't it?? Read what Bush (and/or the people he backs and is backed by) have planned. Way more educated people than me have written over & over again why we have to worry about this mess.

--Saerlaith