Assange and Snowden vs Kelly and Litvinenko - Propaganda patsies vs people who really knew things.

I'm going to preface this by saying this is my opinion. I may be wrong.

However...

A lot of fuss is made in the mainstream media about Julian Assange and Edward Snowden.

Assange is, as I'm sure we all know, the Wikileaks founder who is supposedly on the run from the authorities who supposedly have trumped up some rape charges in order to arrest him and extradite him to the US for his "crimes" in exposing US interests accross the world. He is currently sitting in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London and costing the British taxpayer a hefty amount in surveillance costs just in case he dares to try and go and get on a plane and go somewhere else.

Snowden is the worlds currently most famous departure lounge refugee. On the run from the NSA after breaking the worst kept secret in the world that government agencies routinely monitor all internet and electronic communications (the only thing new in his revelation was the name PRISM, those of use who have been around the block a bit already knew about Echelon and Carnivore).

These two men are Public Enemy 1 and 2 if you believe the hype. They've done unspeakably bad things to the US Intelligence Agencies and apparently the US wants them back to find out just what they said...

But I have a problem with these two, and it goes past their supposed actions and "heinous" crimes.

You see, they're still breathing.

Now, lets look at the opposite side of the spectrum, from two people who actually knew something.

David Kelly knew something. He knew that the British Government completley and utterly lied to the people of the UK in the "intelligence dossier" about Iraq that was published to try and get the public here to support the war. So he had an off the record conversation with a BBC journalist by the name of Andrew Gillingham about it. After Gillingham hinted that Kelly was the source of his published information regarding the claims made in the dossier Kelly was called to speak before a parliamentary select committee. Two days after that he was dead from "haemorrhage from incised wounds of the left wrist, in combination with coproxamol ingestion and coronary artery atherosclerosis", or supposedly suicide. However his records - including the postmortem were then sealed for 70 years.

Now the British government has since reopened the records for scruity, and claim that nothing underhand happened. Some people believe that may be the case but others still maintain that Kelly was "suicided" in order to make sure he didn't say any more. Personally, I subscribe to that theory.

Alexander Valterovich Litvinenko was a former Russian FSB agent who knew a thing or two about organised crime and the black side of Russia. He came to the public eye after accusing his FSB bosses of murdering the Russian tycoon and oligarch Boris Berezovsky. The accusations landed him in hot water and he was arrested for exceeding his authority in making them. He was tried, set free, then arrested again in Russia before he fled to London and was given asylum by the British Government. He used his new found British status to level accusations that the Russian secret service had staged bombings, and politically targetted executions to bring Putin to power.

One day, so the story goes, Litvinenko went out to meet two former KGB agents who introduced him to two other people who claimed to have evidence of one of the targetted executions. Litvinenko came back from that meeting with more than a story. He came back with massive amounts of radioactive pollonium in his bloodstream, and died 23 days later after falling ill.

His murderer was never found, and the British government have since refused a public enquiry into his death.

So here's my thought. If Assange and Snowden are still breathing, they probably don't really know too much, and the info they have isn't as "sensitive" as we are led to believe. Both are highly credible mainstream media patsies, who get trotted out when a distraction is needed - a little extra Oz factor? Remember - don't look at the man behind the curtain!!!

Kelly and Litvinenko, on the other hand...well they had a house drop on them.

Makes you think, doesn't it?

reply to post by neformore


Nef....

You are not alone in this thinking. I also believe that if these two knew so much, they would have been killed, long ago.

You can lay claim to a few conspiracies in this. One, that this is one big Psyops game, perpetrated on Americas enemies. Or, It is being perpetrated on the public outright.

But yes, you do have to wonder, right?


S&F

Well, maybe if Kelly had contacted Wikileaks as a safeguard, he wouldn't have died.

Snowden had time to plan before $hit got real, whereas Kelly never really intended for his revelations to go public, as they were supposedly made off the record. Hardly anyone had heard of Kelly before he died.

Their only chance to get Snowden now is through fair trial. If they wack him everyone will see it for what it is.

Just a guess here, but I'd say it really depends WHO gets pissed off and about WHAT when it comes to sanctions with extreme prejudice. Kelly and Litvinko must have had something on specific individuals that motivated their untimely and messy demise. I doubt if Snowden has anything on specific individuals, Assange could have some thing but knows better than to advertise.

ganjoa

added: it doesn't seem as "personal" with Snowden/Assange

Originally posted by Ismail
Their only chance to get Snowden now is through fair trial. If they wack him everyone will see it for what it is.

See, here's where I'm going to disagree. No one in the really dark world would care if people think he's been executed for what he's done. It would mean nothing at all to them. It meant nothing with Kelly or Litvinenko. Who are the public going to point the finger at?

Nope... the reason they are alive is because they are useful.

To be honest, and call me naive if you will here, but I'm not sold on the claim that Assange and/or Snowden are "Propaganda patsies", or are even remotely linked to anything like this in fact, definitely not of their own doing I mean. Yeah, they have been reported on a lot, who of us could deny that.. but at the same time It's not like they control media reporting here, they can't exactly have much of a say on how much, or how little, they're going to be discussed around the world by millions of others. I really can't believe that over-discussion of either of them is proof of anything concerning what they may or may not have to share as well, or indeed what position they may or may not really be in at this stage of thing's. The fact they're still alive is a bit irrelevant to me too in all honesty.

I do truly believe others in the past have been silenced for information they possessed, such as the 2 gentlemen cited in the opening post for example, and I feel like I could list a ton more as this part of conspiracy theories fascinates me more than any other, but that doesn't mean everyone who may or may not have information, greater or weaker, in the public eye or hidden away somewhere, will receive the same fate. That's not how thing's work as far as I'm led to believe on such matters. It seem's like a much more complex thing than simply having someone in an office crossing line's over the names of targets and then having them unfortunately disappear forever. The factors involved are seemingly endless.

I also think the real food for thought here is still potentially found in the amount they're reported on, but I think if anything It's working the other way around. The fact they've been reported on so much is causing others to start asking questions of their credibility, as proven in the erection of this thread here for example.. And personally, I think that's where the 'dodgy dealings' are taking place if you will. Report on something endlessly and eventually people will quickly tire of it, no matter what it is. I dare say that's what's really quite possibly going on here.

But who knows for sure, I certainly don't. But what I do know is I do support these 2 guys still and I'm yet to be convinced they're playing us for fools. If they are then they are, but I'm just not seeing it here. Not everyone is out to get us or screw us over somewhat, not even close. And not everyone who has information will perish either. Some have in the past, yes, such as those cited in the opening post as I mentioned above, but the fact they're still breathing and capable isn't strictly evidence of anything in my opinion. And It can't ever really be used as such. After all, plenty of people who changed our world with information met a happy demise, it's just not ever focused on as much. And It can't ever really be used as such.

Good thread though, plenty of food for thought no matter what position we hold!

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by Ismail
Their only chance to get Snowden now is through fair trial. If they wack him everyone will see it for what it is.

See, here's where I'm going to disagree. No one in the really dark world would care if people think he's been executed for what he's done. It would mean nothing at all to them. It meant nothing with Kelly or Litvinenko. Who are the public going to point the finger at?

Nope... the reason they are alive is because they are useful.

Most people have never heard of either Kelly or Litvinenko.
Most people have heard of Snowden and Assange.
Kelly or Litvinenko die, no one cares. Snowden or Assage peg out, I can tell you thats going to make one big stink because of the extensive media coverage they received.

How Snowden or Assange are usefull to anyone in the US I fail to see. You don't try to put usefull people in prison, normally. They are usefull to the russian and chinese, that's for sure, and you can be sure that they will get plenty of protection from those counties. Or, they will wack them, to put the US in an even more unconfortable position. Which is probably why Snowden doesn't want to overdo his stay in Russia.

Originally posted by Ismail
Most people have never heard of either Kelly or Litvinenko.

Most ATS'ers will have heard of Kelly. Anyone with an interest in "spooks" would know of Litvinenko

How Snowden or Assange are usefull to anyone in the US I fail to see.

Look at the bigger picture. When something comes up that people need distracting from, who better to suddenly mention and bring into the public eye again than Public Enemy #1 or #2?

Or you could plausibly deny things, on the basis that these two aren't talking about it.

Intelligence assets don't have to be out there actually doing something... they simply have to be out there.

hi nef, you've mentioned 4 people..

2 of them spoke about things they were not meant to speak about.
the other 2 ...well, i'm pretty sure you already have a good grasp on that

there is also another layer to this - the two supposed whistle-blowers (snowden, assange) serve as a metaphor for anyone who "goes against the system"

yet another layer (and this is a stretch here) "two witnesses"

(i believe) these two are the equivalent of 'project camelot' for us big kids..

(i believe) this is part of the effort to create a 'scapegoat' of sorts for the public to rage on. (keep watching where this all leads to)

(i believe) movies like 'the matrix' were the original "thrust" of this effort. (informing people that their reality was not what it seemed to be)

what they are ALL saying is nothing we tinfoil hat wearers haven't been saying for decades already.. (this is why the effort needs to be "directed" in certain ways)

the whole world is being "indoctrinated" into this "stuff"

(i believe) this is all part of destroying the 'old world order' and bringing in 'the new'

I like your title and your sentiment..

However, i think it's merely down to that Assange and Snowden made this public - and the PTB are even helping making it public - but only because they couldn't escape the exposure any way.

With the other two - they were well informed and discreet. Behind the scenes, even by their own choosing - of course they were messing with the big boys in close proximity - and already knew their info would cost their lives.

Maybe if they had of utilised the media and social media as did Snowden and Assange they would still be alive?

JA is the founder and spokesperson of wikileaks. He isn't wikileaks as in WL is not a one man operation. Killing JA would not do any good as WL as a movement would continue on and probably would even get stronger if JA was "martyred" for the cause. There's the staff that works that is the backbone of WL and there's the volunteers who work for free for WL.

Originally posted by PsykoOps
JA is the founder and spokesperson of wikileaks. He isn't wikileaks as in WL is not a one man operation. Killing JA would not do any good as WL as a movement would continue on and probably would even get stronger if JA was "martyred" for the cause. There's the staff that works that is the backbone of WL and there's the volunteers who work for free for WL.

Yes, Assange is not leaker or whistleblower .He is passing the information and leaks . He is doing the thing every real journalist should do. Snowden is a hero like it or not .

JA is the founder and spokesperson of wikileaks. He isn't wikileaks as in WL is not a one man operation. Killing JA would not do any good as WL as a movement would continue on and probably would even get stronger if JA was "martyred" for the cause. There's the staff that works that is the backbone of WL and there's the volunteers who work for free for WL.

(i believe) this serves as a good "metaphor"

we could esteem JFK here, and the whole "political process" - (volunteers) unpaid interns and such..

then we can simply research into the Kennedy dynasty and where and how their money was made..

...i wonder how many people are "up" on assange's "background" (re: his early childhood)



and this one,

Yes, Assange is not leaker or whistleblower .He is passing the information and leaks . He is doing the thing every real journalist should do. Snowden is a hero like it or not .

i would just ask that person if they intend to "hold true" to their current signature message (which states: History is being made and unfolding as we speak ... those on the wrong side of it by obstructing and impeding the truth from emerging are noted and shall be remembered.)



..a lot of sacred cows to knock down yet