Daring to be Different in the Black Community

Originally posted by CSpitta
reply to post by Jerk_Idiot

 

I NEVER THOUGHT I would speak with Jim Crow!
You informed me of nothing but idiocy and delusions of grandeur in surmising that no black deaths in the civil rights era was of value until, whites died.

You're my favorite type of racist.
You have to be #1 at everything.
Please list all the whites who I should thank for my freedom. I mean, it was taught to me they were apart of the struggle and didn't isolate themselves. A one-for-all type attitude if you would....

That was the point. lol. It WAS a one for all type attitude which is NOT TAUGHT. Reality is those with no power CAN NOT take power from those that have it. It has to be GIVEN TO THEM by those that have it. When those in power found out they would have to kill their own children was when they decided to give up that power. Reality at that time was you could kill blacks without a problem. Killing whites was a problem. Actual racism! If you want names you could start with the Union soldiers who died in the Civil War and work your way up from there. YOUR ATTITUDE that blacks did it all by themselves is delusion. You dishonor all those that died for you. By the way. I AM #1 at most things! lol. I believe it was a black rapper who said it is not arregence if you can back it up. I have backed it up in more ways then you can imagine. Starting by BEING THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by ButterCookie

Older black relatives tend to encourage you to get a 'nice job' rather than promote college graduation, as this is a subconcious 'escape'.

That nice job can't be too nice...well unless it is sports or entertainment. Too nice of a job and you are once again labeled.

Exactly.

I'm actually graduating with Honors then off to Law School, but when I bring this up to my relatives, they respond superficial as if it's a "pie in the sky" goal. They have never asked what my major is, when is graduation, nor what my law school plans are.

This is because they could care less, and this is something I see all too often.

They usually just smile (superficially) and say, "Ohh, that sounds good." Then the subject is changed.

I remember one summer I tried to enroll for a few classes to speed up graduation, and needed help paying for the tuition out of pocket, but to no avail from family; however, a male relative went to jail shortly after that and they all had rallied to collect bail money and such.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Kashai

Because it makes no sense to consider that Zimmerman should have gotten out of his car.

He was running a neighborhood watch all he needed to do was call 911 and stay out of any effort to address
Travon Martin. Had he done what he was supposed to as a member of a neighborhood watch, this child would not be dead.

This makes this act at the very least manslaughter.

That is obvious

Was it illegal that he got out of his car?
Was it illegal that he followed some guy in a hoodie, not knowing is color?
Was it illegal that Martin doubled back instead of just going straight to the house he was staying at?
Was it illegal that Martin started to beat Zimmerman?

Is a child bigger, stronger than a man? Able to sit on the chest of a man and punch at will?
Is a child old enough to be a ranger or a seal?
Is a child old enough to be on a college football team?

Should an unarmed child be killed because he was not running in a rainstorm?

Should a black child be killed because he was on his way to a house in a neighborhood where he in fact lived?

Should a person who is following a child identify himself as a member of a neighborhood watch. If in fact he decided to follow that child because he thought that child was "suspicious".

Zimmerman should have made clear why he was involved otherwise he is guilty of murder.

Is it Ok to chase someone thinking they are doing something wrong without identifying yourself as a person, only interested in making sure you are not a criminal. I mean honestly if I am chasing someone who I think is a criminal the least I can do in a confrontation is admit that is why I am chasing him or her.

Zimmerman is guilty of murder and he was set free because in relation to Florida law it is OK to kill someone because you think he is guilty

That is a bunch of baloney.

To be clear the OP is delusional.

Any thoughts?

Originally posted by ButterCookie
Exactly.

I'm actually graduating with Honors then off to Law School, but when I bring this up to my relatives, they respond superficial as if it's a "pie in the sky" goal. They have never asked what my major is, when is graduation, nor what my law school plans are.

This is because they could care less, and this is something I see all too often.

They usually just smile (superficially) and say, "Ohh, that sounds good." Then the subject is changed.

I remember one summer I tried to enroll for a few classes to speed up graduation, and needed help paying for the tuition out of pocket, but to no avail from family; however, a male relative went to jail shortly after that and they all had rallied to collect bail money and such.

You need to say that you are doing it all just to join the ACLU, not that the ACLU is all bad, but you would get a nod of approval finally.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Is a child bigger, stronger than a man? Able to sit on the chest of a man and punch at will?
Is a child old enough to be a ranger or a seal?
Is a child old enough to be on a college football team?

Should an unarmed child be killed because he was not running in a rainstorm?

Should a black child be killed because he was on his way to a house in a neighborhood where he in fact lived?

I thought we debunked this whole "child" thing....

No a child should not be, but a man beating another man is a different story....

reply to post by Kashai


This is not a Martin/Zimmerman debate thread. I honestly want to keep the discussion on track.

Originally posted by LizardSlicks

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot

Originally posted by CSpitta
reply to post by thesaneone

 

So, that's the ONLY way to attain a better life? Belittle the community from which you came, while BENEFITTING from the freedoms, they DIED FOR?

Seems to me you're scared of reality. How can something be past-tense, when the ramifications are in future-present.

You never existed, POOF!

Sorry to inform you. Probably before your time. I am not sure of the amounts who died from both races but it was not until whites who stood up for the blacks started dieing that civil rights for all were taken seriously. At that time blacks dieing did not count. Whites dieing did. That is something not really taught in Black History month. The idea was equal rights for all. Not for any special group. Something to think about.

Do you see what you just did! RIGHTS for blacks DIDN'T MATTER when JUST blacks were dying for it, no, it only BECAME IMPORTANT WHEN WHITES STARTED DYING too. Is there not a problem with that? So a handful of white people recognized the injustice and put themselves on the line for it, they were moral, strong people. Nobody cared when it was just a bunch of blacks dying. A few white people died for it and suddenly the whole thing changes, becomes relevant...I'm not sure what you meant with your post at all. You're either saying that black lives are not as valuable as white lives or that society at large doesn't care about what is happening to black people. Inequality or indifference is what I'm getting.

edit on 15-7-2013 by LizardSlicks because: clarify

A reasonable question based on a unreasonable lack of knowledge. To answer you. Yes, black lives did not matter. That is the essence of racism against blacks. White lives did matter then. I did not say that black lives DO NOT MATTER now but that did not back then. Why do you think there was a civil rights movement?It was not about different drinking fountains or bathrooms or sitting at the back of the bus. Black lives were not as valuable and society did not give a damm about them. Few people remember what real racism was about. Because not only blacks whose lives at that time no one cared about but whites whose lives WERE cared about were willing to die for those black lives power was shifted. I do find it funny that your post seems to imply I am saying it is that way today. It was the way it WAS not IS! People forget history.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by timidobserver

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Kashai

Because it makes no sense to consider that Zimmerman should have gotten out of his car.

He was running a neighborhood watch all he needed to do was call 911 and stay out of any effort to address
Travon Martin. Had he done what he was supposed to as a member of a neighborhood watch, this child would not be dead.

This makes this act at the very least manslaughter.

That is obvious

Was it illegal that he got out of his car?
Was it illegal that he followed some guy in a hoodie, not knowing is color?
Was it illegal that Martin doubled back instead of just going straight to the house he was staying at?
Was it illegal that Martin started to beat Zimmerman?

Is a child bigger, stronger than a man? Able to sit on the chest of a man and punch at will?
Is a child old enough to be a ranger or a seal?
Is a child old enough to be on a college football team?

Those things aren't illegal separately, bu together, an argument could easily be made that they add up to culpable negligence.

The thing you don't see is that the whole illegal part starts with Martin beating the crap out of Zimmerman. The guy made an extreme poor life choice of many, but instead of just ruining his life he lost it this time.

WHAT MARTIN DID WAS ILLEGAL!!

ZIMMERMAN DEFENDED HIMSELF LEAGALLY UNDER FLA LAW.

Once again one could point out that if only Zimmerman stayed in his car none of this would have happened, and one could also say if Martin only went straight to the house and not double back to beat Zimmerman none of this would have happen, but both of these points are moot.

edit on 15-7-2013 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)

All of that is pretty irrelevant to the point I made. Reckless behavior that leads to the death of another person does qualify as manslaughter. I am going to go out on the limb say that Zimmerman jumping out of a car and chasing some kid around in the dark while carrying a loaded gun just might be a tiny bit reckless.

Reckless behavior that leads to the death of another person can lead to a manslaughter charge. While legal, the things you listed, when taken all together, do paint a picture that I think the prosecution could have easily used to prove manslaughter. Unfortunately, they focused on murder rather than proving the manslaughter.

Per the desire of the OP, I won't continue on this line of discussion with you.

reply to post by Xtrozero


I understand the pov more clearly now that you have explained it via Florida Law. I have not watched the negativity but I have listed and read different posts here and there.

Once again one could point out that if only Zimmerman stayed in his car none of this would have happened, and one could also say if Martin only went straight to the house and not double back to beat Zimmerman none of this would have happen, but both of these points are moot.

Even though 911 tells him to stay in the car it is still legal that he approached the "suspect"?

Was he really scared ya think when he was getting beat up or was he hoping he would get a hit so he could fire?

I just don't know and frankly don't want to judge the case because I wasn't there.

Buttercookie is right to stand her ground as she sees fit and hopefully family will see her as a strong independent thinker sooner than later rather than a _____ fill in the blank with anything negative.

Originally posted by dulce5cinco
The racism on this site is so sad and so palpable, it's scary. For once, white people, put yourself in the shoes of black people. If...

Your people were stolen
Your women raped
Your houses burned
Your income lessened
Your men demonized
Your history erased and re-written
Your children murdered

FOR HUNDREDS of YEARS

Another white angel. It has happened to whites as well. Also to browns and I guess yellows and reds as well? It is history. Deal with today. I remember what happened to the Chinese in the West. Also the Native Indians. Why are you not crying for them?

wouldn't you be upset? Wouldn't you feel rage? Wouldn't you feel hopeless? This country is not "post-racial" whatever that is supposed to mean. There are so many cases of blatantly racist crimes being committed every day, not to mention the comments just on twitter alone would make you think it was still the 50's. White people, it's time for us to sit down, shut up, and relax our sense of entitlement. We are NOT entitled to a critique of black people or their culture or their mistakes until we have honestly addressed and fixed ours, and we are FARRRRR from that day.

Originally posted by MamaJ

Even though 911 tells him to stay in the car it is still legal that he approached the "suspect"?

911 is not a officer of the law, and they can't "tell" anyone anything...they can recommend, and I'm sure her training is ALWAYS the same recommendations.

Was he really scared ya think when he was getting beat up or was he hoping he would get a hit so he could fire?

I think he was truly shocked he was attacked. I don't see him as someone who lives a street life of violence. Martin was on his cheat rather quickly and Zimmerman never had a chance to fight back. As much as people seem to want to call Martin a "child" he was physically capable to take Zimmerman at ease, and more importantly wanted to.

Now, did Zimmerman shoot our of fear or anger...who knows....

Originally posted by timidobserver
reply to post by ButterCookie

 

Honestly, your reason for supporting Zimmerman determines whether you deserve said ostracism. If you believe that he was in the right, based purely on the facts of what we know about what occurred, the ostracism isn't deserved.

On the other hand, if your difficulties being in accepted in the black community played any role in your stance on the case, the ostracism is deserved. If any part of you was against Martin purely because being against him allowed you to be against the Black community, that has treated you so unfairly, the ostracism is deserved.

I think that is reasonable. My question is WHY are you questioning her motives? Why would you even suspect other motives then that she believes Zimmerman was innocent?

reply to post by ButterCookie

I commend you for learning the things you are aware of. It is very rare to read what you just wrote down as a black woman. You should not have to apologize to anyone for your straight and independent thinking. You may change your mind some time in the future - but the way I see it you are spot on - any black person seeing their race a constant victim will most likely never enjoy the fruits of a peaceful and restful life unless they let go of the victimization role. I personally think the whole country is getting really tired of it. I mean how many times can the white race of this country apologize for the slavery that Africa let happen a couple of hundred years ago - please move onto to something else to gripe about - please. Do they not ever get tired of the race tension?

I am a 67 year old white man. I was a business man for many years in the liquor business working directly for a distillery and had to travel to 10 different states. When I started out in this business I didn't have a prejudice bone in body like you - it was the way I was raised and I didn't see any difference in anyone because of their race. I worked with and made many friends with many black people in this business. But - as I started to travel a lot I learned very fast to be very careful and always had to look over my shoulder if I was alone. I was threatened once for no good reason other than I was white - thank god a squad car came along at the right time and saved my ass from a beating I didn't deserve other than I was white.

My point is - it all goes back to the beginning that you had mentioned about slavery. The black community is dragging a stigma of victimization around like some kind of cross of hatred - the black community will not let it go - they are taught and schooled to hate and not trust the white race and at the same time want the white race to keep paying to its dying day emotionally, morally and financially - it will never end in anything except in violence as it is now. They will never change their minds - you are knocking on a door that will never be answered unfortunately.

And you are spot on about how those slaves were given up by the African Kings for money and gifts - it is all written down in books but will never be taught that way in school - especially in the inner city. We are all wrong and we are all right, but this American racism subject is being driven down every ones throats by the news media.

The present administration is not helping either. They are just reaffirming the hatred and no trust of the whit race - you can hear it in Obama's speeches and Eric Holders new and present stance on a civil suit against George Zimmerman (who is Hispanic too) - they won't let go of it. You have to ask yourself - why this case? Think about it - the poor economy / the White House scandals / the far off wars we are in / Benghazi / Fast and Furious / the national debt - the list goes on - why this case? Racism and hatred is their goal in my opinion. God help us all, especially the black community, for being manipulated to that end by this president and his staff.

I applaud you for being you - you have figured it out but no one wants to hear it in your family evidently - and to top it off you have to come here to confirm your beliefs. I can tell you are a good person and a thinker - and just because they do not respect your opinion as I am sure you respect theirs - you will probably never change your own mind because you have thought this out - I say good for you.

I spent 28 years in the military, and so it doesn't matter what color you are we are all the same. Ever thought of being a lawyer in the military? Nice way to get your college paid for and to get extremely good experience.

But then the military is not for everyone...

Originally posted by Kashai

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by ButterCookie


Its out of being a rational thinking person.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Because it makes no sense to consider that Zimmerman should have gotten out of his car.

He was running a neighborhood watch all he needed to do was call 911 and stay out of any effort to address
Travon Martin. Had he done what he was supposed to as a member of a neighborhood watch, this child would not be dead.

I WILL leave my car whenever I feel. It is NOT against the law. Zimmerman was found not guilty of breaking any law. ANYONE regardless of their beliefs who attemps to kill me or otherwise obstruct me when I am not breaking the law does so at their own peril. You WILL NOT take away my rights merely to satisfy your personal beliefs that a black man has the right to walk down a street but a Hispanic or white man does not. Are you trying to bring us back to the 50's with the roles reversed?


This makes this act at the very least manslaughter.

That is obvious

I don't normally reposts posts, but this is so funny...

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by SAS101
I like to share a video that I've came across. Its quite hilarious!

I really want to smoke a cigar with that guy.....

Originally posted by MaryStillToe

Originally posted by napayshni57
reply to post by ButterCookie

 

Being a blonde haired white woman made me feel like a poster child for hatred. I do have some really dear friends that are black. One of the first black friends I met came from the state of Washington. I asked her if it was just me or was it different down here with blacks and whites. She said she didn't understand it either. She'd never seen so much hatred like many of the blacks seem to have because of a persons skin color.

I think the perspective you offered is great and I hope I can help explain why attitudes and behavior can be at extreme opposites among different black communities.

Black people who experienced extreme hate and hostility or are still living around hateful and unwelcoming white communities have learned to hate back. At face value, they can't differentiate between nice white people and bad white people. Based on their experiences, they know that most white people from their area do not like them or want to be around them. As a person from the north, I was shocked to learn they still have segregated proms so its not hard to see they are reacting to their environment.

Do people really expect a person to let go of hate and mistrust when they are still being exposed to unfairness and lack of acceptance? It's logical to think that they should realize not all white people are bad, but perspective and fears are not easy to change.

A friend of mine knows a woman who took in foster children who were abused for about 3 years. The children's biological mother would lock them in the room for days and wouldn't give them any food. Over time, the children learned to hide food in their room so that they would have something to eat when they were locked back in again. Once they got to the foster home, they continued doing the same thing. It took the foster mom 8 years to convince all the the kids that they didn't need to hide food anymore. Despite good treatment, they held on to the mistrust, as it's a reasonable human response to negative experiences.

In the future, if you find yourself surrounded by hateful black communities, look at the history of the area and learn about the surrounding communities. I can guarantee you there is something to be found.

I would like to dare ButterCookie to be different and actually do some research on this and see if areas where her parents were raised or places like Memphis actually have some history that affects why the people feel the way they do. Also,she should offer some ideas that might help improve the situation instead of just ranting about it (there is actually a section for that here on ATS).

Prove that you are a cut above the rest by presenting information that is worthy of discussion, instead of starting these generic and one-dimensional threads.

I had to sign in to give you a hug. *Squeeze*

Parts of me agrees with the OP, totally.

However, I now live in a community that is mostly black. I understand the frustrations now, whereas I ignorantly thought it was just complaining before.

I think the problems are:

1. Historical greviences - like you said

2. Trust - black and white people do not trust each other. Trust is so basic, but once you stop trusting a company or your government it is hard to regain.

3. Fear - black and white people fear each other. Each side harbors fears and resentments against the other.

4. Class based - like someone said. People who feel they are locked into a certain class may believe the cause to be racially based and will use historical examples to convince themselves. People who are upwardly mobile tend not to have these feelings.

There are a lot of problems on both sides. I think my problem with her post is not that I don't agree with her, but that much of the blame is placed on one side. She hasn't even tried to understand that side, just label them. We need to understand each other from a place of love. A lot of this hate is manufactured, but a lot of it also exists within people ready to be unleashed - from both sides.

Also by generalizing the "black community", the OP is in danger of doing the very thing she accused of her father, family, and community of doing - closing her mind and name calling, e.g. being on the plantation. She has made up her mind about them as much as some of them have made up their mind about white people.

Also, OP. I know a lot about arguing with Dad's(especially about politics). It's not worth it. Lately, I've come to realize that arguing (period) is never worth it. God Bless!

Originally posted by Kashai

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Kashai

Because it makes no sense to consider that Zimmerman should have gotten out of his car.

He was running a neighborhood watch all he needed to do was call 911 and stay out of any effort to address
Travon Martin. Had he done what he was supposed to as a member of a neighborhood watch, this child would not be dead.

This makes this act at the very least manslaughter.

That is obvious

Was it illegal that he got out of his car?
Was it illegal that he followed some guy in a hoodie, not knowing is color?
Was it illegal that Martin doubled back instead of just going straight to the house he was staying at?
Was it illegal that Martin started to beat Zimmerman?

Is a child bigger, stronger than a man? Able to sit on the chest of a man and punch at will?
Is a child old enough to be a ranger or a seal?
Is a child old enough to be on a college football team?

Should an unarmed child be killed because he was not running in a rainstorm?

Should a black child be killed because he was on his way to a house in a neighborhood where he in fact lived?

Should a person who is following a child identify himself as a member of a neighborhood watch. If in fact he decided to follow that child because he thought that child was "suspicious".

Zimmerman should have made clear why he was involved otherwise he is guilty of murder.

Is it Ok to chase someone thinking they are doing something wrong without identifying yourself as a person, only interested in making sure you are not a criminal. I mean honestly if I am chasing someone who I think is a criminal the least I can do in a confrontation is admit that is why I am chasing him or her.

Zimmerman is guilty of murder and he was set free because in relation to Florida law it is OK to kill someone because you think he is guilty

That is a bunch of baloney.

To be clear the OP is delusional.

Any thoughts?

You mean besides you are delusional? Martin who was a MAN died because he was killing someone else. He was not a child no matter how much people want to label him such for political reasons. Like Obama calling Snowden a child. We really need to address what age people are responsible for their actions. There are 10 yr olds killing people in Africa as we speak. Until you get over this "child" bs I can not answer your questions.

Originally posted by Jerk_Idiot

Originally posted by Kashai

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by ButterCookie


Its out of being a rational thinking person.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Because it makes no sense to consider that Zimmerman should have gotten out of his car.

He was running a neighborhood watch all he needed to do was call 911 and stay out of any effort to address
Travon Martin. Had he done what he was supposed to as a member of a neighborhood watch, this child would not be dead.

I WILL leave my car whenever I feel. It is NOT against the law. Zimmerman was found not guilty of breaking any law. ANYONE regardless of their beliefs who attemps to kill me or otherwise obstruct me when I am not breaking the law does so at their own peril. You WILL NOT take away my rights merely to satisfy your personal beliefs that a black man has the right to walk down a street but a Hispanic or white man does not. Are you trying to bring us back to the 50's with the roles reversed?


This makes this act at the very least manslaughter.

That is obvious

How is it manslaughter? Trayvon Martin attacked George Zimmerman. Evidence and facts presented in court (by the prosecution mind you) proved that Trayvon was the aggressor and attacked GZ. Are you saying GZ "should have stayed in his truck" because Trayvon and others "like him" should be expected to behave like savages and attack you if you are near them or ask them what they are doing? This is the amazing part about your faction's argument- the fact that the problem somehow lies in GZ getting out of his truck. As if he should have known he was going to be attacked and should have accepted that fact. Your argument and stance makes me sick.

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

I understand the pov more clearly now that you have explained it via Florida Law. I have not watched the negativity but I have listed and read different posts here and there.

Once again one could point out that if only Zimmerman stayed in his car none of this would have happened, and one could also say if Martin only went straight to the house and not double back to beat Zimmerman none of this would have happen, but both of these points are moot.

Even though 911 tells him to stay in the car it is still legal that he approached the "suspect"?

Was he really scared ya think when he was getting beat up or was he hoping he would get a hit so he could fire?

I just don't know and frankly don't want to judge the case because I wasn't there.

Buttercookie is right to stand her ground as she sees fit and hopefully family will see her as a strong independent thinker sooner than later rather than a _____ fill in the blank with anything negative.

Having had my head slammed into a concrete sidewalk I can say Zimmerman was really scared. I was.