Japan's Blunt Stance Riles China, S. Korea

I'll play devils Advocate here,China is seeing the US move towards their arena in force. Our foreign policies are faulty in the extreme. We are a war state in the way we are positioning to fight ALL the time by outfitting to oppose the latest bad guy.Our adventurism is wrong and our passed manipulations are going to continue to give us grief until common values Americans believe in are applied to our world policies. I don't want to run the world,just live in it.
Unfortunately many want revenge and some want to rule the world.

reply to post by cavtrooper7

Our adventurism is wrong and our passed manipulations are going to continue to give us grief until common values Americans believe in are applied to our world policies. I don't want to run the world,just live in it.
Unfortunately many want revenge and some want to rule the world.

I find it interesting to hear you say it so simply and bluntly. Of course, knowing you from around the forums, I'm aware of your military background and so, I'd like to ask a very straight forward and honest question.

In your experience in and since Service, what % of those in Uniform these days feel about the same way you do in 'live and let live' unless we're directly attacked or provoked beyond reason?

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by crazyewok
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Good point on that. Of course...If China has an Ace in the hole to negate our technology as our greatest advantage? We're in a bad spot, eh?

To me honnest I think the USA hell most of NATO have a few big ace in the hole waiting too. I dont want to go to far into the conspiracy angle but I think there are some cool toys hidden under the wests sleaves.


But yeah so far the USA has mobility hell even the UK has more mobility than china at the moment and thats what wins wars not fought at home you just have to look at the falkland war for that, the country with the aircraft carriers won.

Of course give it a a few years and China will have a small mobile forces and giev it a decade or two they may have one to match the USA. But I can only see it being a balance that wont really go anywhere than maybe a short skirmish or two as the US has far more allies to back it up.

reply to post by crazyewok


lol... Yes.. I keep forgetting about the Falklands war. Talk about the ultimate example of the ability to project force making ALL the difference! Few other situations have seen a power across the planet engage a home nation right off their own shore like that, on the scale that happened, and win beyond all doubts or questions. That was quite a statement in military terms, even if nothing political is considered.

You know what bothers me though... China has this workforce SO large, they have literal problems just managing them all and keeping it from going wild. When they want widgets made, they are known for building a CITY of widget factories, not simply a big factory to make their widget. Scale of economy is what I'm saying.

It won't surprise me much if, within a few years, we see China float their own Aircraft carrier and not this Ski-Jump thing they have out for sea testing now. Scale of economy though....and One carrier could become 6-8 carriers as we discover they had more than tug boats building at shipyards along their coast, simultaneously. That would be like them.

I think one of the most startling History issues I've looked at was the tales of the Chinese Exploration Fleet(s). The one I'm thinking of is the best known for support.

The armada's crew totaled more than 27,000 sailors and soldiers. The largest of the junks were said to be over 400 feet long and 150 feet wide. (The Santa Maria, Columbus's largest ship, was a mere 90 by 30 feet and his crew numbered only 90.)

Source

The ship Columbus used would have stacked 4 abreast on the deck of the Chinese ship and left plenty of room for crew to move along the rails to the sides of the row.

I never underestimate the Chinese ..and perhaps in an almost unique way for that in the world. They have a history showing pure doom upon virtually every power which ever has.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Yeah the Falklands is a intresting war. It more or less the first war between to modern countrys since well I dunno if Korea counts? And it showed just how vital surface ships still were. But to be fair it also showed the power of missles too and how deadly they can be against surface ships that are unprepared.



Yeah China is a pretty unique country and seems to be endless in imagination. I think what has keeped the country in check the last few thousand years is it constant interanl conflicts. The idea of China mass produceing aircraft carriers is a pretty daunting though But then if push comes to shove America could potentialy do it....they manged it in worldwar II. But I still beleive the west has a pretty big trick up its sleave. Call me crazy but I think the USA did build its Strategic Defense Initiative or something similar as that would expain alot of things and its sitting on it in the event of a war that actually does matter to national security.

reply to post by crazyewok


Now I agree with you there too on the US and Western powers having some awesome levels of technology. I wish I had proof positive to link or show and say Ah-Ha! See! There it is! ...alas, all I have are what we all have. Rumors... Promising leads chased down to die out into nothing ..and occasionally, just once in a great while ..a glimpse of something far enough into this category to know without doubt, this category exists.

Sometimes I think I'd give almost anything for a Gulf Stream, a Pilot with an open credit card on fueling and an "all access" clearance pass to enter and walk around any base I chose to be curious about. Oh..the things any of us would see, I'm sure, would make the rumors look tame in the truth of things. (Dulce.... Area 51 and other NTS locations,, A lab in Idaho and a facility in the Colorado back country come to mind. )

You know the 64 billion dollar question tho? Whatever we do have...how much have the Chinese already learned or even built knock off's of at this point? Their efforts at espionage seem to follow their natural creative streaks while our side focused on looking for the "Spy vs Spy" types China never wasted time with.

I think we can all agree that whatever the truth of all this? A war between China and The United States is truly the last thing any rational person ever wants to see happen.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

China is a threat because they are building up militarily and laying claim to anything they want to, and bullying their neighbors. They need the resources more than anyone, and are claiming places that they have no right to.

And how much money do america spend every year on militery? But, thats okay yes? China is bullying no one.
The islands, they believe are theirs, simple as that. But even if japan do not agree, china would not go to war over them.

All countries are resource hungry, not just china.

China does not need to use militery action. They have gotten where they are today without it, unlike some countries, including my own. Its the western countries that are the bigger threat if you ask me.

Yes, people will always fear china. Not because they are a threat to the world, but because they are a threat to the western power countries that have been top dog for such a long time. People alive today have never known it any different. So, what it comes down to is fear of losing that status.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


No I agree Im afraid, we will only get to see these toys if a big war breaks out and thats not exaclty what anyone wants! At most we may see what we really have now in 30 or 40 years time when it becomes old. Secrecy has always been one of the best defences. If you dont know it exists how to you counter it? I rember a online Space RTS a few years back you could make your own units from scratch even your own weapons all that stopped your imagination was resources. And yeah we all kept our best toys secret only sending old or mediorce stuff into the fray if the war was of little importance, keeping our top stuff held back. Now life is not a RTS game but the principle is the same.


The whole thing is facinating. I would love to find out but I understand that they may be keeping us all safe.


As for what other countrys have made? Well I think Russia and China know something but dont have anything to compare yet hence why they will make a lot of noise then back down

Just look at how the USA and South Korean gov just didnt give a flying crap about north korea in june when then threatend to use nukes. Ok they couldnt hit the USA mainland but Guam or a target in South Korea or Japan was a big possibility. It was like the USA knew that if the nuke got past the patriot defence it could just shoot it down with little effort.

Well I may be wrong on this but China does have the ability to kill satelites. Quite a bit of our tech relies totally on those high flying instruments. If China were to take them out it would level the playing field pretty fast.

They even "boresight" shot one a few years back which is something I think the US hasn't done yet.

Not to mention that video I seen on this site a month or two ago where Chinese infantry used a burm of dirt to launch rockets and hit their targets.

Not saying we will ever go toe to toe with China... ever, unless maybe Americans became too poor to buy their cheap products then maybe I'd worry a bit.

Plus China and Japan has been at each others throats since time began so this is just another chapter of one worried over what the other is doing and pointing fingers. I am pretty sure nothing major will arise.

I could be wrong though. I can't seem to get the image of a "push me pull you" from Dr Dolittle when I think of China and the US.

reply to post by Jay-morris


It's not just the Senkaku islands. They have also claimed the Spratly chain, and shot at fishermen there, other navies, etc. But hey, it's ok because the US spends so much on their military, even though we only would support Japan I'm this. Since we spend so much it's somehow our fault.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

It's not just the Senkaku islands. They have also claimed the Spratly chain, and shot at fishermen there, other navies, etc. But hey, it's ok because the US spends so much on their military, even though we only would support Japan I'm this. Since we spend so much it's somehow our fault.

And when has china invded these countries? Will they ever invade them? I don't think so. And why the hell would china risk these islands when they will have america on their back. It would be suicide for the country. And like i said before, so what if they are building their militery? Nothing wrong with that, as long as they are building their militery for defence. Unlike other countries

reply to post by Jay-morris


Oh so the other countries are making it up, and faked the damage theory ships suffered. Got it, the Chinese would never do something looker that because it doesn't make sense. Got it.

So what of the US would be all over them. By the time we could have substantial forces in the area China has already reinforced. If they can deny our carriers the ability to operate close, that hinders us in a huge way. And of they go after Guam, even just to damage the runways, we're screwed. We would be fighting in their backyard, they would have every advantage so why wouldn't they.

Originally posted by Jay-morris
USA has the most advanced militery in the world. Does that also make them a threat?

I can't believe you asked this because the answer is so much yes it's amazing.

Can't recall China invading the Middle East and propping up terrorists?

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

Oh so the other countries are making it up, and faked the damage theory ships suffered. Got it, the Chinese would never do something looker that because it doesn't make sense. Got it.

So what of the US would be all over them. By the time we could have substantial forces in the area China has already reinforced. If they can deny our carriers the ability to operate close, that hinders us in a huge way. And of they go after Guam, even just to damage the runways, we're screwed. We would be fighting in their backyard, they would have every advantage so why wouldn't they.

edit on 7/15/2013 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)

Im not saying china is perfect, far from it, but your country, my country is far from perfect. China would not risk a war with America? It would not make any sense what so ever. Like i said before, if there is a ww3, or huge conflict, it will be from a western country. Look at the complete mess we caused in the middle east?

reply to post by Jay-morris


Who said it would be a major war? If China thinks they can get away with it, and to be honest they probably could, they'll do it in a heartbeat. At worst it would be a limited conflict.

interesting "wordplay" used in OP

"fast and furious"

3rd

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

Who said it would be a major war? If China thinks they can get away with it, and to be honest they probably could, they'll do it in a heartbeat. At worst it would be a limited conflict.

Im sorry, but a war with china, would be a major war. You think it would only be down to these two countries? I don't think so. You talk like China is wanting a war or something. Like i said before, the west has been getting away with murder and illegal wars for years. Why don't you question that. Does it make it okay because you are part of one of these countries?

I am not blind to the horrors we have done, and are still doing. Some people look at their countries as if its all that matters. Thank god, i amd not conditioned to think this way.

All countries are guilty of terrible things. Yes, even yours.

Back back to china causing a war. No chance in my book!

reply to post by Jay-morris


Well well Agentina tried takeing the Falklands the war was kept localised to just the Islands.

So it can be done.

Both sides would no how pointless it would be to ecalate the situation.

So yes I think it would be a localised skirmish.

reply to post by Jay-morris


Again, because only the West does right? Why wouldn't China? Have you even bothered to look at the islands in question? There are oil and gas fields to rival the Middle East. And you think China wouldn't go for them why? Oh right, fear of the US.

China wants to become a super power, and be the biggest power in the region. An oil field rivaling Kuwait would be a huge boost to those plans.

As for a conflict, contrary to ATS doom porn, yes a limited conflict could easily happen. It's happened before and could and probably will happen again.

Originally posted by Jay-morris

Originally posted by Arnie123
Will, article 5 seems to answer the question for us, sequestering is a big issue right now.
Lifting some of these limitations on japan would mean we can create a true Asian iron shield, one of not only defensive but offensive capabilities.
I think a military buildup by japan would be a instrumental, I am happy that at least somebody has seen what we all have seen but too damn scared to admit it that china is a huge threat for the region, there are sooooo many nations bundled up in that region is scary and with china only getting bigger and increasing its navy, its all too easy to see where this will lead up too.
If japan can pull this off, the other nations will follow its lead in this endeavor and remind china of its place and follow international law. All these little incursions that china has been doing to japan is really a test to see what it will do and by god japan is fed up with it.
I'm all for it. Rise of the red dragon? how about, Rise of the red sun.

So, chinese are a threat because they are building up their militery?
USA has the most advanced militery in the world. Does that also make
them a threat?

Yes and japan seems to think so too, hence the topic of this thread an overall discussion, please stop sleeping in class.

China have got to where they are today without war. Why would
they ruin all that? The only way china will go to war, is if they are
pushed.

In a sense you are partially right, china is one of the oldest countries in the world and for a long while ruled with an iron fist, that's how china's domain was large and secure to begin with.
The only pushing around here is china's push for regional dominance in lands that don't belong to them, the pacific will not be pushed around by them and it seems that japan is the first to step up and call them out.
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Did you even read the article? you went straight for the anti-American bashing and pro-Chinese. If that's what you want, then by all means, but at least read the article first before you start blasting America, this has to do with japan and china with us limitations involved. We lift the limitations on japan and turn it into a military power capable of not only defensive but offensive operations.