Revelation : The whores "fornication" is usury.

(If I say something that is right, then God has inspired me. If I say something that is wrong, then it is my own mistake.)

1. Introduction
One of the many symbols that appear in the book of Revelations is the mysterious "whore". Using the Bible, she can be identified as the city of Jerusalem. I have expanded on this in another thead - The Bible identifies the whore of Babylon as Jerusalem. This point is backed up by several Biblical quotes.

Now, if you happen to believe that the whore is something else, that is your take on the matter and you are most entitled to it. But this thread however, is going to be based on the premise that the whore is Jerusalem. Having said that, I am not up to debate the very premise of the thread, so don't waste your time trying to convince me that the whore isn't Jerusalem.


2. The whore, nations, kings and merchants.
Students of eschatology know that besides other things, the whore-
a) Possesses great wealth and luxury, symbolized by the gold, pearls and precious stones that she is adorned with.
b) "Fornicates" with kings and somehow makes the merchants of the earth wealthy.
c) Gets the nations drunk with the 'wine of her fornication'.

Now pay special attention to Revelations 18:3 -
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. - Revelation 18:3

Revelation 18:3 is peculiar in its metaphorical use of 'intoxication' and 'fornication' to narrate the whores relation with kings, nations and oddly - merchants. Could this seemingly innocuous reference to merchants hold the answer to larger questions?

The metaphors and the characters in that verse all provide vital clues on this matter. It also raises the following questions :
- What exactly is meant by her fornication with the kings?
- What do merchants of the earth have to do with all of this and how exactly are they growing rich because of her? (Important)
- What is meant by the 'wine of the wrath of her fornication' and how did the nations drink it?

In order to be able to answer these questions, we need to know what the metaphorical 'fornication' really stands for. If "whore" is symbolic of a city, then what is her "fornication" symbolic of? (Answers revealed later in this thread.)


3. The whores fornication = usury!
What if the whores "fornication" is symbolic of an evil that plagues our world today - usury!
(Plenty has been written about this subject by people who are far more well versed in economics than I am.)

Now interpreting prophecies requires a bit of imagination, in addition to connecting dots and asking the right questions. Sometimes it helps to ask what-if questions, so as to open doors to new possibilities. Here's how I arrived at the answer. I had recently read a Hadith that taught that usury is a sin worse than adultery. This got me thinking and I wondered if the book of Revelations is also comparing usury to a sexual sin, as carried out by the whore. I then started looking into how the narrative of the whore would unfold if the whores 'fornication' was replaced with 'usury', and to my amazement it all started to fall in place like pieces of a jigsaw!

Here are the answers.
The "fornication" between the whore and the kings represents the abominable financial system based on usury. It is through this system that the whore and the merchants of the earth grow rich.
- The kings committing adultery with her are world leaders who are also players in the whores usury based financial system.
- The merchants are the businessmen and bankers, who grow rich from whores usury based financial system.
- The nations are drunk with the wine of her fornication because they have been made a part of the whores usury based financial system.
In this light, one can deduce that usury is part of the filth that fills the whores golden cup, an important symbol pertaining to the whore. It is another of her major sins, in addition to having the blood of the holy people.

That usury is an abomination is nothing new. Several verses in the Old Testament teach that usury is forbidden by God Almighty. In fact, usury, is explicitly declared as an abomination!

Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. - Ezekiel 18:13


4. When kings and merchants weep over a whore.
And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning - Revelation 18:9

And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more. - Revelation 18:11

The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing. - Revelation 18:15


When the whore was destroyed, so was the abominable financial system the kings and merchants lived by.
The fact that mighty kings and merchants, mourn and weep over the whore is further proof that the whores "fornication" was a financial system that they were benefiting from. They mourn and weep for the whore because the financial system that brought them wealth and riches had collapsed.

Interestingly, more than the kings who fornicated with her, its the merchants who mourn and weep over the whore. In fact, verses 11-19, contains only the lamentations of merchants, mourning over the whore and their own material losses!


5. The "great men of the earth" - villains behind the scenes.
Just before the end of the chapter, we learn that the merchants were not just neutral characters caught up in the chaos.

...for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. - Revelations 18:23

There you have it. The merchants, described as the great men of the earth belonged to the whores system all along! They are in all likelihood, the architects of the same usury based financial system and one with the whore. This perfectly explains why they were the ones mourning the whore the most. The nations were all deceived when they were suckered in to the whores financial system. This connects back to Revelation 18:3, where the nations are said to be drunk with the wine of her fornication.

So, the mention of merchants did indeed provide the vital clue to help resolve the mystery of the whore and the meaning of her fornication.


6. The whore gets a taste of her own medicine.
Once you understand the whores fornication as symbolic of an usury based financial system, then one of her punishments starts to make sense.

Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. - Revelations 18:6

In other words, she is to be given a taste of her own medicine, a double dose from her own cup of abominations. With interest, if you will.

God knows best!

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

"Fornication" is broader than that.
It indicates idolatry, unfaithfulness to God in worshipping other gods, using the "wife of God" metaphor which is commonplace in the Old Testament prophets.
E.g. "you made for yourself images of men and with them played the harlot; and you set your embroidered garments on them and set my oil and my incense before them"- Ezekiel ch16 vv17-18

I always have difficulty accepting this stuff because if you
must interpret the bible then that means what was written
was incorrect, or it was written in code, both of which seem
really odd for a religion with an all powerful supposedly
all protecting being like god, he claims in his own book that
he would protect his book, yet we know it has been changed
and is used improperly all over the world to cause massive
amounts of harm, Africa and birth control, need i say more?

The problem with having to fish a message out of these books
is it always varies with the fishermen, then you end up with
wars because someone always thinks their fish tastes better.

I did however enjoy the read, thank you for the thread.

reply to post by DISRAELI

"Fornication" is broader than that.
It indicates idolatry, unfaithfulness to God in worshipping other gods, using the "wife of God" metaphor which is commonplace in the Old Testament prophets.

Doesn't a man become "unfaithful" to God by doing committing things that God forbids as an abomination? In this case, usury.

Besides, "fornication" can also refer to idolatry, as it has in the past but is not the only meaning. In the case of the whore and the "merchants of the earth", the related chapters have more to do with trade and finance... as opposed to idolatry.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
(If I say something that is right, then God has inspired me. If I say something that is wrong, then it is my own mistake.)

Why does God allow you to misinterpret and then spread the information, causing even more branches of religion based on even more twisted words, because of a simple human mistake? That's why they are all there.

It looks like God didn't think this religion business through. God doesn't matter, what people say about him does.

sorcery is pharmacopeia, the practice or use of medicine, for various purposes. i'm trying to fit the usury thing with pharmacopeia.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

"Fornication" is broader than that.
It indicates idolatry, unfaithfulness to God in worshipping other gods, using the "wife of God" metaphor which is commonplace in the Old Testament prophets.

Doesn't a man become "unfaithful" to God by doing committing things that God forbids as an abomination? In this case, usury.

Besides, "fornication" can also refer to idolatry, as it has in the past but is not the only meaning. In the case of the whore and the "merchants of the earth", the related chapters have more to do with trade and finance... as opposed to idolatry.

edit on 14-7-2013 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

would've helped if it had said "mammon" cause then
we'd all know what it meant.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Sinve the "fornication" of ch17 leads to the persecution of the church ("drunk with the blood of the saints"), it must have a great deal to do with transferring allegiance to other gods.
In the same way that the Beast's claims to worship in ch13 lead to the persecution of the church.
The fact that the Harlot is shown riding on the Beast show that the two aspects of persecution are very closely connected.
That is the theme of Revelation; "The prospect of persecution and how to cope with it".

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

In other words, she is to be given a taste of her own medicine, a double dose from her own cup of abominations. With interest, if you will.

but does it say by whom? if i seek revenge for wrong deeds done against me, how am i any different than someone who doesn't proclaim to believe the text of the bible? if i don't forgive, where's the evidence that i have the capacity to grow spiritual fruit much less produce spiritual fruit? there's something wrong with your approach. although i agree, usury sucks.

Interesting read. I am unable to add more as I still think this is regarding Rome. I havent time to go into it and I dont want to divert the thread.
I have read your other thread and you make some interesting points but I think if fits far better with Rome. I guess time will tell.

Nice thread.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Sinve the "fornication" of ch17 leads to the persecution of the church ("drunk with the blood of the saints"), it must have a great deal to do with transferring allegiance to other gods.
In the same way that the Beast's claims to worship in ch13 lead to the persecution of the church.
The fact that the Harlot is shown riding on the Beast show that the two aspects of persecution are very closely connected.
That is the theme of Revelation; "The prospect of persecution and how to cope with it".

edit on 14-7-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

the issue in skorpion's mind is no doubt tangled up with his belief that the saints are not the christians. the church is also, in his mind, a building with doors and windows. most muslims are taught to believe that the buildings the popes had built all over the world, are the church, and of course, they are not the church. the church is the believer. "ye are the temple of god." it's not a mosque. it's not a cathedral. it's not a building.

reply to post by undo

Yes, quite so.
But Skorpion is a Muslim and I think this criticism of usury and "powers behind the scenes" is partly a way of getting at the Jews and the state of Israel.
(Why is a Muslim interpreting the New Testament? Don't ask!)

reply to post by DISRAELI

Sinve the "fornication" of ch17 leads to the persecution of the church ("drunk with the blood of the saints"), it must have a great deal to do with transferring allegiance to other gods.
In the same way that the Beast's claims to worship in ch13 lead to the persecution of the church.

But what about the merchants?

It seems they were more interested in money and material wealth than any god. We see clearly that the whores destruction caused the merchants massive losses in business and trade. That is why they were weeping and mourning for her. Nowhere does it suggest idolatry or the presence of any gods.

Originally posted by bloodreviara
I always have difficulty accepting this stuff because if you
must interpret the bible then that means what was written
was incorrect, or it was written in code, both of which seem
really odd for a religion with an all powerful supposedly
all protecting being like god, he claims in his own book that
he would protect his book, yet we know it has been changed
and is used improperly all over the world to cause massive
amounts of harm, Africa and birth control, need i say more?

The problem with having to fish a message out of these books
is it always varies with the fishermen, then you end up with
wars because someone always thinks their fish tastes better.

I did however enjoy the read, thank you for the thread.

Yes you hit on some very true points.

I won't try to explain what they are however the basic answer to you and the OP is .

Usury is not the "whores" fornication....religion is ....Babylon.Babylon comes from babel.Which means the confusion of words which is exactly what religion is.The confusion of words....the whoring of words ...the worship of words AS God.
God is not words in a book.But many believe the "bible" is the Word Of God.So they worship it and make the doctrines of men which make void the LIVING word of God which is NOT words in a book.Whenever you ask them a question about this God they believe in they only believe the words in the Bible which ironically is what says they worship the words of the bible and not God!!..how's that for reality.

They worship God in vain with their lips yet their heart is far from him.They search the scripture thinking that IN them they have life yet fail to come to him that they are written OF.They are always learning but cannot know the truth because God has given them over to a strong delusion to believe a lie.

The very scriptures they worship as God says they don't know God at all yet they can't see it.It is staring them in the face every time they search the scriptures.That is idolatry.The whoring of Babylon...the worship of words as God....religion.

reply to post by undo

but does it say by whom? if i seek revenge for wrong deeds done against me, how am i any different than someone who doesn't proclaim to believe the text of the bible?

It is part of the message given to those asked to come out of the whore. Again, its just a statement that caught my curiosity and in line with the OPs theme.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by undo

 

but does it say by whom? if i seek revenge for wrong deeds done against me, how am i any different than someone who doesn't proclaim to believe the text of the bible?

It is part of the message given to those asked to come out of the whore. Again, its just a statement that caught my curiosity and in line with the OPs theme.

so coming out of the whore requires what action, in your estimation?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

The "trading" and the "getting rich" could be as metaphorical as the "fornicatiion".
If the "Harlot" is able to draw the world at large into the worship she prefers, then this can be portrayed as seducing them either by her "sexual favours" or by her "wealth".
Look at the context of the whole book.
See how exactly the same thing happens in ch13, when the Beast secures the allegiance of the whole world and then demands their worship.
And once again, remember that the Harlot and the Beast are closely connected.
ch13 and ch17 are talking about two aspects of the same thing.

reply to post by DISRAELI

I think this criticism of usury and "powers behind the scenes" is partly a way of getting at the Jews and the state of Israel.

This has more to do with understanding prophecy than with "getting at the Jews and Israel".

Either way, now that you brought it up, is it a coincidence that
- the book of Revelation speaks of of "those who say they are Jews but are not"?
- that Jerusalem has all the traits of the whore of revelations?
- that Jews, even as a tiny minority they are... are at the forefront of banking and financial institutions?

Make what you want of it, these are facts from the Bible.

i'm gonna keep pointing out the pharmacopeia thing cause i think it's an important part of the puzzle.
drugs, man, drugs. what kind of drugs? anybody?













drugs man, drugs. somebody is making ALOT of money on drugs.

reply to post by DISRAELI

The "trading" and the "getting rich" could be as metaphorical as the "fornicatiion".

Are "merchants" and their cargoes also metaphorical? Looking at it that way, every single thing can be "metaphorical".

However, when you bring the merchants - the great men of the earth into the picture, we see that all the talk about wealth in Revelations 18 suggests that the whore was about a corrupt financial system, besides other things.

If the "Harlot" is able to draw the world at large into the worship she prefers, then this can be portrayed as seducing them either by her "sexual favours" or by her "wealth".

Except there is nothing about "worship" with regard to the whore.
Revelations 17 and 18 speaks of a "whore" that somehow makes merchant rich and deceives the nations.
Merchants become rich by corrupt financial systems and the nations are deceived into being part of it.


Furthermore, the merchants are described as being the whores own. They are part of the whore... meaning the whole thing was about a financial system, not worship.The bit about the merchants being of the whore is a dead give away. It has more to do with corrupt trade and finance than idol worship or false gods.