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posted on Sep, 1 2013 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by The GUT
 


I acknowledge you prefer the looking into the estorics, I prefer trying to speak their language first. This is not demeaning however this is why some should focus on one and others should focus on another and all involved should base conclusions given the limited ability to discover how they all intertwine. I have my own ideas as do you, I do not think you are wrong nor do I think others are, will say though that unless whoever is looking one way should be focused there only while their are many that have no focus and live in a fun house with wavy mirrors




posted on Sep, 1 2013 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by Brotherman
Change the language change the soul some have not forgot the inquisition.

Who decides the parameters?


I do not think that parameters are involved in the soul I can see you trapping me into estoric discussion, I will make it clear my belief, soul=exists, other than that what I say is what you get for now simply because I do not speak for powers beyond my comprehension



posted on Sep, 1 2013 @ 02:57 PM
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reply to post by Brotherman
 

I don't have a problem with your interest and have stated that you were pretty right on from the beginning about certain aspects .


The concept just raises questions with me. Maybe (Probably) it's because I don't have as keen a grasp as you at this point.

Personally, I hope you do elaborate and share more of the language aspect and I bet folk will be more receptive to it now.

You have though, my much-loved ATS brother, seemed to have started speaking in code with us here. That certainly puts a hinderance on "communication."



posted on Sep, 1 2013 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to post by The GUT
 


There is no code, maybe I have just started thinking differently, I know I dont know sometimes because I try hard to say what I mean, maybe I am just retarded and should just start a thread about vampire welders or marine corps infantry tactics god knows no one cares about a 1 to 30 step guide to painting it is not lucrative or interesting enough



posted on Sep, 1 2013 @ 03:56 PM
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Folks,

I am still pretty well convinced that they are using Thom's philosophies concerning catastrophe, structural stability and morphogenesis (the cause of change) to create software that allows them to model how language and semiotics (signal processing. symbols) change under different types of stress.

It also sounds to me as though one of their interests may lie in artificially 'aging' languages using NodeSpaces to see what kind of stress they can place on the structure of, in this case, Welsh...




Your question on how are they connected with language can now be answered: as we have records of, say, Old Welsh, Middle Welsh, and Modern Welsh, then we have a traceable history of how Welsh changed. This is our Welsh manifold M. The rules defining each state is given, roughly, by linguists (phonology rules, consonantal conservation, pallatization, etc.). Therefore, you can code the system to apply those rules to Modern Welsh and see what comes out.

lingvoforum.net...


If I am not mistaken, and I probably am, manifold M represents a topology which can be mathematically represented and then made to collide with other topologies in order to produce data.

A tremendous amount is learned from breaking stuff to see what happens...




posted on Sep, 1 2013 @ 06:56 PM
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So,

All I meant by that, I suppose, is that I was wondering if there were anything that we could come to a consensus on amongst ourselves, wouldn't it be that FL.org's primary focus seems to be on:

1) How language breaks and why.

2) How language changes under stress, but especially, "Insurgency Languages" (Vampyr Languages), that keep themselves alive, vital, and ahead of the curve in creating their own change by consuming other languages.

3) How people behave when language breaks down, but especially, the strange barren perceptual wasteland that seems to result when language really gives-the-#-up, and...

4) The role of pre-linguistic neurological impulses (for lack of a descriptor) in bridging the gap when #3 happens.

That's what I got from it, overall.

I have a tiny and harmless experiment based on #4, and Sunday is a good day to try it out, if anyone is interested.





ETA:
edit on 1-9-2013 by Bybyots because: .



posted on Sep, 1 2013 @ 09:25 PM
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reply to post by Bybyots
 


are you familiar with smashing language or atoms? I know I am not so astute in such an art, if you are is there a way you can help me learn how to understand this? I have been trying for awhile to do this very same thing I have even employed different software and modeled research like digital lexical representation and actually applied it to forums across the internet to see if I can map a user that uses multiple forums with different user names. I have had some success also a million failures I would be interested in what you may or may not know about this type of research.

B-man



posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 08:48 AM
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reply to post by Bybyots
 







This is the first 2 of 8 lists I have generated based on your last 2 postings, your words only being seperated into N-gram category which is used in computational linquistics and language probabilities this helps determine what the next word in any given sequence. For example if i say that "the stop sign is..." or "answer your..." you can fill in the blanks. This is a useful tool in helping to determine various aspects of natural language and individual text, out side of ngram analysis there is also the ability to digital image frequency and posting style of words in an easy to follow graphic as well as set parameters for frequency of keywords used in a sentance. For example on application to FL consider Direne has been here and has made quite a number of postings on ATS in english, there is a certain style and frequency to what they are saying in english this style and frequency of words should in theory carry over to FL Member Direnes posting in an unreadable language this person has hand penned, by taking samples of similar length of text regardless if the words are jibberish or not it is now possible to compare the unknown language to what is known this should help you discover the likelyhood as what one word is or is not.

N-Grams

Just a thought bro



posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 12:29 PM
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While looking a little deeper into the Basque language (and also the disputed artifacts) I found the following linked paper which I excerpted:


Shifting identities: A comparative study of Basque and Western cultural conceptualizations by Roslyn Frank

1. An example of an entrenched cultural schema: ‘A black sheep in every flock’

In recent years the foundational metaphysics intrinsic to the traditional worldview of Euskaldunak (Basque speakers) has become the focus of extensive analysis as well asconsiderable debate. These investigations have benefited from the use of Euskara(Basque) as a tool for identifying highly entrenched cultural conceptualisations makingup the otherwise often unarticulated ideological matrix of the traditional worldview.These cultural conceptualisations – habits of thought – form part of this cognitively backgrounded figure, namely, the common ground of discourse, upon which discussionsof Basque identity and subjectivity have been and continue to be carried out. Bydeliberately focusing on these collectively held cognitive patterns, Basque identity, euskalduntasuna –the concept of selfhood and group identity–
is constantly brought intofocus, debated, negotiated, affirmed and rearticulated.

Yet meanings understood by Euskaldunak frequently go unnoticed or misread by thosenot fully conversant in the cultural coding of traditional Basque thought. For example, anon-Basque speaking individual who is, therefore, a cultural outsider, upon hearing anaffirmation such as ‘Yes, in Euskal Herria there is a black sheep in every flock,’ willattempt to map cultural conceptualisation belonging to what is commonly understood asthe Western worldview onto the sentence. In other words, using culturalconceptualisations familiar to most Europeans, the person will interpret this sentencenegatively. In contrast a positive interpretation comes into focus when one takes up the perspective afforded by the cultural conceptualisations of the traditional Basqueworldview, for, as we shall see, the entailments of the colour black have a positivevalence….

…The shared understandings implicitin these cultural conceptualisations give rise to the discursive coherence that characterisesa particular culture, even though as Sharifian (forthcoming) has explained, people operateon the basis of the assumption of shared understandings while, in reality, culturalconceptualisations are heterogeneously distributed across any given culture, albeitforming a complex network where certain nodes with a higher level high of agreementare more easily accessed, e.g. metaphoric construals of colour-coding.



posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 12:45 PM
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Here's a little more that I'm finding interesting in the incorporation of the "metaphysics" aspect to the paper's thesis. Of course it only makes sense in any attempt at "wholistic" understanding.


...In short, the present study forms part of a larger project focused on recuperating the metaphysics associated with this earlier pan-European eco-centric worldview and its richrepertoire of ontological metaphors. In that process, of particular interest to us has beenthe analysis of the cultural conceptualisations functioning in a set of contemporary ritualfolk performances found across much of Europe, most particularly those involvinghuman actors dressed as bears who function as healers, bringers of good health.

Collectively, these popular performance pieces constitute a genre known as ‘good-luck visits’ (Frank, 2001a; forthcoming a). At this stage the results of our investigation suggestthat the Basque worldview, externalised in the colour-coding of these performances andrelated ritual and linguistic artifacts, should not be understood as an isolated survival, butrather as perhaps the best preserved exemplar of the metaphysical foundations embeddedin this earlier European cosmology...

www.academia.edu...


edit on 2-9-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 01:54 PM
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reply to post by The GUT
 



Well i've asked a couple of times here regarding which side of the Basque controversy FL members were on but received no information, but from this article it would appear FL are opposed to Basque Nationalism, no surprises there for me as i consider them to be opposed to all ethnic Nationalism, especially within Europe



“But Language the performance of a language system is neither reactionary nor progressive; it is quite simply fascist, for fascism does not prevent speech, it compels speech”

"Citizens of the trans-national world partake in the dynamics of change to a much higher degree than do people dedicated to the literate ideals of nationalism and ethnicity".


Basque Fascism




They value their language and traditions thus they are Fascists...go figure.
edit on 2-9-2013 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 03:05 PM
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reply to post by Kantzveldt
 


When you say Basques it reminds me of that book hammer of the witches and the spanish inquisition I do not think I caught the part in this thread where you brought that up what page did that start on, there are so many pages



posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by Brotherman
 



It has been a recurrent theme, a controversy involving the Basque language, i am surprised you suddenly seem unaware of this and that my usage of the word 'Basque' conjures in your mind witch hunt connotations.

It was not myself that brought the issue up, like i said it has been ongoing with first mention of Linguistic specialists being concerned with the activities of Anydryl and Karadne in such matters, but most recently Eucarpo provided an overview.



Originally posted by Eucarpo
In 2005 archaeologists unearthed inscriptions in Latin, Basque, Egyptian hieroglyphics and many other extraordinary objects in the Roman ruins of Iruña Veleia (Álava, Basque Country, Spain). A scientific committee rejected its authenticity. The authority reported several people for fraud and destruction of historical heritage. At present the administration of justice has not acted. There are some scientists and other interested persons who defend the authenticity of the findings. I think that everything is crazy and a joke.

There is a relationship between FL and this controversy. If you turn to the site will find articles in Spanish that are libels against people who maintained the falsehood in the forums. There are people involved here who know a lot about it.

There is much information in Spanish and Basque (very little in France French and English) on the subject. In English you can inform here:

The Veleia Affair
Mike Elkin
Archaeology.
archive.archaeology.org...

I read little and bad English, I followed the thread with difficulty but I have full read. This is written is Spanish and I translate with Google. Sorry.




I have tried to ascertain what FL members part in this was without success, but it seems clear to me from their own article they would be opposed to anything that furthered the cause of Basque Nationalist identity



After three long years of scandal, archaeology is no longer trusted as a science in the Basque Country. Will the courts' investigations reverse the damage to the profession? And if the exceptionals are a hoax, the questions on everyone's mind will be "Who?" and "Why?"

But for Ken Feder, a Connecticut archaeologist and author of Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology, these questions distract us from focusing on the analysis of the artifacts, which is what really matters. "The people behind hoaxes," he says, "are usually well-respected and you always hear, 'It couldn't have been him, he would never do this.' Not knowing a motive is not an argument for authenticity. There will be a smoking gun. The rest we can leave to the psychologists."
edit on 2-9-2013 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 04:57 PM
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reply to post by Kantzveldt
 


I brought up the hammer and the inquisition in jest thought you would find it slightly amusing, I read so many things through this thread it is hard to keep up with all of the sub convos involved, it is almost starting to remind me of that massive stargate thread. I have been focused on other areas mainly the language aspect in general that is what interests me most, but thank you for digging that out for me!



posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by Kantzveldt
 


If it interests you into what I have been playing with I will go ahead and just throw this out here for you if again you are interested. They use all unicode and imaging from I am guessing photoshop or another imaging software to generate all of their conversations here:

"When combined with ASCII and Latin-1, this block lets you write Afrikaans, Basque, Breton, Catalan, Croatian, Czech, Esperanto, Estonian, French, Frisian, Greenlandic, Hungarian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Maltese, Polish, Provençal, Rhaeto-Romanic, Romanian, Romany, Sami, Slovak, Slovenian, Sorbian, Turkish, and Welsh. See Figure 26-7."
bolded is my emphasis but that is only one of many in this single one type of unicode

SOURCE


Now what else in this source I would like you to take a look at is section

26.3.24

down that page, I bet you find something else pretty familiar there

there is a whole lot more which I could touch on but I will wait till I can get it all out co herently to where it isn't rushed and makes sense, especially in the areas of language analysis and computers


it is pretty amazing all the things hidden behind a key board
edit on 2-9-2013 by Brotherman because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 06:18 PM
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reply to post by Brotherman
 





are you familiar with smashing language or atoms? I know I am not so astute in such an art, if you are is there a way you can help me learn how to understand this?



Just the language smashing. I tried to put it in a nutshell in my first post on Kantzveldt's thread here...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

...or you can read a mercifully direct overview of Thom's ideas, as they are applied to language here.

www.ams.org...

It's the same link from the linked post.




I have been trying for awhile to do this very same thing

I have even employed different software and modeled research like digital lexical representation and actually applied it to forums across the internet to see if I can map a user that uses multiple forums with different user names. I have had some success also a million failures I would be interested in what you may or may not know about this type of research.



Well, I do have experience trying to hunt down trolls that use different handles on different forums, doxing, I suppose, but I have not used any software.

I am a little confused as to how you have made the leap from NodeSpaces to N-gram extraction and statistics software. But, no, I don't have any experience with that sort of thing, it sounds interesting though. Is that what you have determined that FL is using NodeSpaces for? Parsing forum posts in different languages?




posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 06:52 PM
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This is getting ridiculous already.

From ponies and sparkly rainbows, to this.....

Sorry, perhaps it's just me. Brotherman, that predictive language stuff you're looking at is exactly what current government alphabetic agencies are researching. Just have an open look at any of their sites, via linguistics research, so they can determine the posters on sites like this and others, with different screen names that are the same...... Too funny it arrives here, like this.

Second, your reply to Kantz, about what this really seems to center on: the discovery in 2005 of those artifacts in Iruna Veleia. and whether that is a hoax or not. I found Ecuarpo's information really interesting, and buried in the thread are literal pages of conversation between sourceable, known linguists, about this issue and as it relates to FL. This is, undoubtedly, the whole DEAL of FL and this thread. I am surprised, frankly, you downplayed it in that way in reply to Kantz, as it is a MAJOR factor that's been uncovered here, in regards to this website and what its intentions and the motivations for developing may have been.

However, I am grateful for your replies which led me to research Unicode, established, (ASCII) in 1968, right in the middle of Viet Nam, imagine that, when the Burroughs Corp. was just getting deeply into quantum computing and satellite control of U.S. military weaponry systems via satellite......

Upon reading several sources about Unicode, there was a known "glitch" from the beginning, so that translation of various languages, such as Latin (huh, imagine that) and others, would be not so spot on, so to speak. .....even French.


26.3.1. Latin Extended-A

The 128 characters in the Latin Extended-A block of Unicode are used in conjunction with the normal ASCII and Latin-1 characters. They cover most European Latin letters missing from Latin-1. The block includes various characters you'll find in the upper halves of the other ISO-8859 Latin character sets, including ISO-8859-2, ISO-8859-3, ISO-8859-4, and ISO-8859-9. When combined with ASCII and Latin-1, this block lets you write Afrikaans, Basque, Breton, Catalan, Croatian, Czech, Esperanto, Estonian, French, Frisian, Greenlandic, Hungarian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Maltese, Polish, Provençal, Rhaeto-Romanic, Romanian, Romany, Sami, Slovak, Slovenian, Sorbian, Turkish, and Welsh. See Figure 26-7.

YOUR LINK



Also, it may just be numbers being the same, but I don't think so. Our highest standard of encryption, on a personal computer today, is 128 bit......comparative here to 128 characters.....used for ASCII...


Now, I'd like to say something about what I see as "judgements" from FL as to Basques and "Indo-Europeans," as a political, and nationalistic goal seems to be hiding herein.
Does no one else find it ironic that the linguists on this site are bashing the Basque for not providing full translations of their languages and dialects, while trying to develop and "anti-language" they describe for use within groups of dissimilar people who won't understand, except for them?

And you find nothing disengenuous or worrisome about motivations, here?
Tetra



posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 06:58 PM
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reply to post by Bybyots
 


Give me a minute or two ill explain the evolution of how my readings and studies have changed and why



posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by Kantzveldt
Well i've asked a couple of times here regarding which side of the Basque controversy FL members were on but received no information, but from this article it would appear FL are opposed to Basque Nationalism, no surprises there for me as i consider them to be opposed to all ethnic Nationalism, especially within Europe



“But Language the performance of a language system is neither reactionary nor progressive; it is quite simply fascist, for fascism does not prevent speech, it compels speech”

"Citizens of the trans-national world partake in the dynamics of change to a much higher degree than do people dedicated to the literate ideals of nationalism and ethnicity".

Not sure that means what you think it does. Maybe, though. FL certainly seems pro-Gil artifacts, which would suggest pro-Baque nationalism? Or no? Sheesh, I'm spun!


Here:

forgottenlanguages-full.forgottenlanguages.org...

edit on 2-9-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2013 @ 08:49 PM
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Kantzveldt, with all due respect, might I ask you to provide an overview of your own rather cryptic (to me) thrust and implications of this thread?

Not a pointer to various of your offerings here at ATS. Just a concise thesis/introductory of where you are going with your threads and the whole Sumerian angle?

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that for some reason you hesitate to openly state what you really feel and instead proffer vague statements that are heavy on supposed inference, but seemingly light on actual, meaty, digestible content.

Are we talking Ancient Alien Theory to some extent?

Who are the good guys/bad guys when you mention Ea/Enki/Enlil/Inanna?

Do you believe the above characters actually exist as intelligent beings? If not, how could any group release the "Gallu demons" on society rather than just in their own head/lives?

If they are not actual beings, then why would we use ancient and fragmented Sumerian myths for modern psycho-social and/or self-analysis?

What translation sources do you consider valid as far as Sumerian texts go? Have you used Sitchin for any of your source material?

No offense, sister, I'm just confused and trying to figure out what you are trying to say with all these rather baffling threads that seem to skirt around a coherent thesis that we might use as a direction and starting point to your research.

I understand that the study of all the variables will be complex, but your thesis/pov should be clear or, if not, it would seem to indicate that it's not even clear to yourself.

It's not only a fair question, but relates directly to your comments about FL in this thread. You've somehow tied it all together with the Sumerian aspect, so please clarify.


edit on 2-9-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)





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