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The Language of Vampyr

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posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by Kantzveldt
reply to post by Baddogma
 



I wasn't sure what they mean by an EBO, could be an effects based operation;



EBO has been an emerging concept, with multiple views on what it meant and how it could be implemented. Most notably, military scientists at the Air Force Research Lab, the Army Research Lab and DARPA engaged in research to develop automated tools to annotate options and recommend courses of action.



EBO


But sounds more like an extra terrestrial biological organism in their contextual usage, all that seems certain however is that if you meet an EBO Giselian you should take it prisoner and begin interrogation.

They need to issue a citizens advice pamphlet on this or something as that might only count if you meet one, but what happens if you come across a gazillion Giselians...?
edit on 26-8-2013 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)


The X-files was notorious for shining light on obscure acronyms famous. When I saw EBO and in the context I instantly thought of E.B.E..

I do like though the Effects Based Operations had 7 attribute... but that is neither here nor there.

Back to the Giselian after an exhaustive Google search I am not convinced Giselian. Although in the movie Enchanted, Giselle is from an alternate dimension perhaps anyone from that dimension is Giselian? LOL

Gisele can also mean pledge as a child given to a foreign court???...

Could it be a Gliesean?


Gliese 581 is Red Dwarf about 22 light years from earth with potentially 3 planets within the habitable zone. We also sent Gliese 581 c (one of the Gliesean planets) a message that will arrive in 2029...
edit on 26-8-2013 by abeverage because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 01:56 PM
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For clarity...


Etymology

From Proto-Germanic *gīslaz, perhaps related to Old Irish giall (“hostage”). Cognate with Old Saxon gīsal, Middle Dutch gisel (Dutch gijzelaar), Old High German gīsal (German Geisel), Old Norse gísl.
Pronunciation

IPA: /ˈɡiːzel/

Noun

gīsel m

a hostage

He him aðas swor and gislas salde: he swore oaths to them and gave them hostages. (Anglo-Saxon Chronicle)



en.wiktionary.org...


Derived from the Germanic word gisil meaning "hostage" or "pledge". This name may have originally been a descriptive nickname for a child given as a pledge to a foreign court. It was borne by a daughter of the French king Charles III who married the Norman leader Rollo in the 10th century. The name was popular in France during the Middle Ages (the more common French form is Gisèle). Though it became known in the English-speaking world due to Adolphe Adam's ballet 'Giselle' (1841), it was not regularly used until the 20th century.


www.behindthename.com...

Simples...to quote the meerkats



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by Baddogma
 


Appreciate your responses guys, just to clarify, whoever that scientist was, he was looking back through time at me. I'm thinking that specific language (or whatever it is) acts as some kind of consciousness triggering interface.



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by Kantzveldt
Thought for the day, what's a Giselian...?


Gisel is an old Saxon word for 'hostage'...which works in context with the article, also origin of the French name 'Giselle'.

They're a pretentious lot, those FL types, I'll say that for 'em


The suffix '-ian' is misused, and really, in conjunction with 'prisoner'...kind of over stating their point for the sake of airs and graces.


That makes more sense although in the context of



All those techniques will render useless, because the psychophysiology of an EBO is simply different"


Elite Bacon Omlete?
Elite Beginner Organization?
Extraterrestrial Band Orchestra?

Ok having a bit of a laugh in there...but seriously now who or what is psychophysiology different then the "Norm"?
edit on 26-8-2013 by abeverage because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by abeverage
Ok having a bit of a laugh in there...but seriously now who or what is psychophysiology different then the "Norm"?


That is why I think EBO stands for Experiment Based Observation...simply because someone who knows that they are being tested, with in this case, a polygraph, will behave and respond physiologically differently to someone who takes the test under duress or otherwise stressful conditions, such as following their release from a hostage situation. So results, and conclusions formed in experiments, have no real basis or validity in the field...that is basically the gist of the article.

I tell you what intrigues me about that article though, it's the use of the acronym RSVM...


Acronym Definition
RSVM Reduced Support Vector Machine (information engineering)
rSVM Rat Seminal Vesicle Mesenchyme
RSVM Ram Seminal Vesicle Microsomal (biochemistry)
RSVM Reduced Vertical Seperation Minima


acronyms.thefreedictionary.com...

What do you reckon? Second or third definition?

(I do realise that it is probably the first definition...but all that is a little over my head, I get the principle, beyond that 'goo-goo')



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by oxford
 


So, Oxford, you are suggesting that you had that experience by being exposed to the Cassini Diskus symbols and then attempting to remote view? Or was it spontaneous? Are you a practiced RVer? (If so, excuse the mess) and how did you know he was in a future setting? I suppose one way would be in the context of mind-to-mind thought impressions and anti-language language, but if you could describe it, I'd be riveted.

Sorry to "bother" you, but just want some anecdotal clarification. Very interesting if so, in that this indicates, along with many other tid-bits, that C-D (as described quite nicely by Bro-man) actually works. If that's even somewhat true, then... wow. Think about that for a moment. Sci-fi becomes sci-fact ... and I'm aware that's a large "if," but what if?

Every darned time... gushy.



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by Baddogma
reply to post by oxford
 


So, Oxford, you are suggesting that you had that experience by being exposed to the Cassini Diskus symbols and then attempting to remote view? Or was it spontaneous? Are you a practiced RVer? (If so, excuse the mess) and how did you know he was in a future setting? I suppose one way would be in the context of mind-to-mind thought impressions and anti-language language, but if you could describe it, I'd be riveted.

Sorry to "bother" you, but just want some anecdotal clarification. Very interesting if so, in that this indicates, along with many other tid-bits, that C-D (as described quite nicely by Bro-man) actually works. If that's even somewhat true, then... wow. Think about that for a moment. Sci-fi becomes sci-fact ... and I'm aware that's a large "if," but what if?

Every darned time... gushy.


No it wasn't spontaneous, I deliberately connected with the image to see if I could extract some information from it. Technically its not RV as this is normally worked blind i.e not knowing any info regarding the target, habit to call it that. Normally I would get mental or emotional impressions but the image on screen physically change which is what surprised me, mental and emotional impressions I'm fairly stalwart with, but when reality starts morphing in front me, its not an experience I am comfortable with. I am a practiced Rv'er but that doesn't mean I am not wrong (I also was not on any form of intoxicants and do not take any medication, just for the record, however I did hit the vino after!). Time displacement, that is more difficult to explain, its more down to knowing how my mind works than the experience itself. You learn it with practice.

Yes it does work, but there are laws regarding human experimentation for good reasons, testing something like this out in the public domain is irresponsible imo.

I'm sorry I can't help more, but I'm off now, please don't ask me any more questions as I feel very uncomfortable regarding this subject and I won't reply. Good luck with it all.



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by oxford
 


No more questions, just thanks for the time, the clarification and the solid impression that you are not delusional. Being comfy that you are credible (if you care an iota) makes me even more foolishly enthusiastic about these FL folks and their work. Though you have my sympathy for the uncomfortable experience you had.

I have found RVing to have some merit in my personal life (and I understand your definition of terms regarding protocals). Knowing the caveat that psychic senses are sometimes as malleable as one's mind doesn't preclude valid information from certain people

Interesting and profoundly strange. If I were one to throw all caution to the wind, I'd be doing so and letting my mind zoom off to all manner of strange possibilities. In regards to your thoughts about them testing in the public domain... that hadn't occurred to me in quite that manner... hmmm.

Point taken, again.

edit on 8/26/2013 by Baddogma because: (no reason given)

edit on 8/26/2013 by Baddogma because: Adding and subtracting



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 05:54 PM
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reply to post by oxford
 


I am sure they do find this a situation now that they are probably being bombarded by conspiracy people wanting to know all about vampires and spooky stuff in their emails.


The website is a bit odd but consider how brilliant it is they want to work in secret why email well we all know email is recorded by NSA and the likes. So they develop an open to view page written in languages that cannot be deciphered by normal means it also helps keep them off the radar because it is difficult to search for words in other languages you have no meaning for. They re research and experiments are quite remarkable for example
Look about halfway down to see Carl Sagans message


This was an attempt to make some kind of communication to a sentient alien life that may find this message only problem is, is that the assumption is made that this form of xenolinguistics would mean something to another being when in fact it probably isnt the best way to go about it. From the research I have been doing the core focus is their work in language and communication their work on encoding their Cessani Diskus is remarkable using nodes and trig function to assign a shape, a color, and time sequence to encode vast amounts of information that is meant to be HEARD not read. As they have correctly deduced sound would be a better form of communication to other species. I am not saying that they are trying to contact aliens I am not saying they are not because I dont know. I will say that this quote:



The aliens in UFO abduction narratives, with their hightech devices that allow them to intrude into the most intimate realms of human life (the interior of the home, the interior of the body, the “recesses of the mind”) aptly represent this vision of a hypertechnological future.

Source


is unique the end of that quote is particular more important then the rest, as i know now some will say aliens i knew it, this is a narrow minded approach to see all the research that is involved. If you notice that they left their bibliographies uncoded as others that may stumble upon their site and wonder what they were doing well if they wanted to vest the time like I have been following up on their source material you will start to put together a more holistic view as to what they are doing. I think that this work is to build a hypertechnological future I also think that their work in communicating with other people and other life will only help us better communicate without the spiritual and emotional barriers that our current modes of language and communication presents. They ARE working on making a way of communication at higher levels




From same page:

Here is just one example of a bibliography this report that is coded from the outside world:

Brown, C.H.; Holman, E.W.; Wichmann, S.; Velupillai, V. Automated classification of the World's languages: A description of the method and preliminary results. STUF—Lang. Typology Univ. 2008, 61, 285–308.

Fiża zad Risimdidi

Hinton, Leanne, Johanna Nichols & John Ohala. 1994. “Introduction: Sound symbolic processes.” Sound symbolism. Hinton, Leanne, Johanna Nichols & John Ohala, eds., Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

Jarva, Vesa. 2003. “Some expressive and borrowed elements in the lexicon of Finnish dialects.” In Ideophones, F. K. Erhard Voltz & Christa Kilian-Hatz, eds. Amsterdam: John Benjamins.

Jendraschek, Gerd. 2001. Semantic and structural properties of Turkish ideophones.” Turkic Languages. 5, 88-103.

Margaret Magnus ve Zasid is i Žag? Zuguer is Fonosemantikil

Ultan, R. Size-sound symbolism. In Universals of Human Language, Volume 2: Phonology; Greenberg, J.H., Ed.; Stanford University Press: Palo Alto, CA, USA, 1978; pp. 525–568.

Vajda, Edward. 2003. “Review of Ideophones”, by F. K. Erhard Voltz & Christa Kilian - Hatz, Eds.) Language. vol. 79 no. 4 pp. 823-824.

SOURCE

It appears in that site they don't use the link or it didnt happen mentality this is one of literally thousands of threads involving some highly involved research skills and if it isnt apparent a vastly larger grasp of language then most people I know would possess. Consider they code this so jerks don't just copy and paste their hard work to twist and bend in other forums and either A work to discredit them but manipulating this research out of context and B so they can communicate without being spied on. I have been working on locating some of these books in some of there threads when you read the source material then you know more or less what they are talking about.
FROM PAGE 17 in this thread



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by Brotherman
 


The post above is from posts I made earlier on in this thread in regards to CD from page 17 all the info is there I hope this helps your research



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 06:05 PM
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reply to post by The GUT
 



Yes i find it all very interesting but then i'm the sort that finds contemplating a Christmas tree a profound religious experience and would love to see real fairies or at least floating plasma balls.

Such phenomena are associated with communication with spiritual entities in many cultures, so whether it's the case that Higher Spiritual powers can produce such effects to get one's attention as it were, or whether they can constitute actual aspects of intelligence i wouldn't know.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 



It's possible that was the Auntie Mollys' Logic of it all, so maybe disinformation.by disingenuous means

reply to post by abeverage
 



Surely even Darpa wouldn't concern itself with the best method to interrogate Giselle...!!!




edit on 26-8-2013 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by Frogs

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by TheSB
 


I read an article last night on their site basically saying that language needs to move away from having characters that are assigned a specific value and more towards a language where value is defined by looking at a character's spatial relation to other characters. I think Diskus is an attempt at that.

An example would be having a series of symbols, say a square, all lined up. Depending on their spatial relation, that one symbol could mean an entire phrase
Like visual phonetics.


Hmmm.. That is fascinating.

Such a language could have a vast array of uses like communication of large amounts of communication in a relatively small linguistic footprint.

Couple that with the use of symbols and their spatial relation and it could really go one of two ways...

Development of a private coded language of symbols usable by the few trained to understand it.

or..

An attempt to develop what could become a "universal language" that does away with most of the constructs of language as we know it.

* I don't know if this was mentioned as this is near as far as I got up to and have to be off for a bit, but wished to leave the following.

On the web page there are numerous mentions of blood geometry, dark geometry, dark math and the like in the videos or what have you lying about on their page. I believe there is more to this than simple (
) linguistics.

At any rate a good read. Thanks for the thread OP and all the back work done thus far.
edit on 26-8-2013 by KristofLaw because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-8-2013 by KristofLaw because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-8-2013 by KristofLaw because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 06:20 PM
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reply to post by Brotherman
 

It's obvious to me that you have figured out a major thrust of FL's interests. Kudos, brotherman! The only thing you seem to be missing is just how deeply attached to the esoteric and the occult that the group really is.

The bibliographies often reflect this as well. NOT, mind you, that I'm saying there is anything inherently wrong with that, only that I believe it's an important aspect in any attempt to understand FL.

You also seem a little quick to believe you have it all figured out. You are certainly bright, exceptionally so, and a good & honest person I believe, but you have also failed to explain yourself well. I see you have acknowledged that and I look forward to your future thoughts.

It's also important, I think, not to just focus on Ayndryl's offerings, even though I admit her research and ubiquitous offerings do suggest their prominence in the larger scheme of all things FL. I'm finding that digging through some of the other member's posts reveal more complex and subtle levels, although I admit the language and anti-language barriers make it more difficult.

I believe they identify with The Invisible College in more ways than one. Also, pssst, no one here thinks they are Vampires so maybe you should drop that aspect of your critique? It takes away, imo, from the more solid offerings of your personal research in our collective & ongoing "guesserology."

Peace & Respect Badger-Bro.



edit on 26-8-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by KristofLaw
* I don't know if this was mentioned as this is near as far as I got up to and have to be off for a bit, but wished to leave the following.

On the web page there are numerous mentions of blood geometry, dark geometry, dark math and the like in the videos or what have you lying about on their page. I believe there is more to this than simple (
) linguistics.

At any rate a good read. Thanks for the thread OP and all the back work done thus far.

When a member that's been here since 2008 shows up and makes intriguing and to-the-point observations on the thread subject matter, I listen.


Welcome to the discussion, KristofLaw, I do hope you'll stick around and continue to wade into this with us.



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by The GUT
 


I never advocate for vampires, that post above was a copy paste from page 17, sure, i understand the estoric, i do not dismiss it, I just choose to research an area in other terms, I can learn language but to interpret and understand the meaning of applied estoric meaning to what they present is another thing entirely to understand this I have to first know the language they use. For the record I do understand the estoric going on I just choose to look towards the language used to understand what it is I am looking for through them. In a sense are we not all looking for something through this? May I ask what is it you would like to know from this?

Sorry I have a better time speaking my mind through pictures then typing or on the phone I do not mean to come across as a know it all I really do not, I have already been accused a few times for being a bully, I assure you I am not.



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by Brotherman
Sorry I have a better time speaking my mind through pictures then typing or on the phone I do not mean to come across as a know it all I really do not, I have already been accused a few times for being a bully, I assure you I am not.

I know you ain't a bully. You should know that. You should also know, from our private messages (established well before this thread) that I'm both fond of and respect you.

I don't want to cross any lines here, but what about that dichotomy of FL philosophy that we've talked about? How do we resolve that and make a nice tight package of what FL is about? If we could discuss THAT, I bet we could make some progress.

Plus, I find it impossible to collate the "universal mind-meld language" that makes disingenuousness impossible, without taking the esoteric philosophy and mindset into consideration.

In addition, the evidence for an interest in inter-or-extra species communication is there. It's not, as far as I can see, an intellectual exercise, but a belief and attempted practice. I know that makes sense to you, yet you fight it.


edit on 26-8-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 07:46 PM
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reply to post by The GUT
 


I tend to agree, however I also steer towards the other end of estorics before I go there as there is much more for me to learn because of my life travels before daring there. It is not a fear thing or a know it all thing, it is an intuition thing my friend. Like I said I do not deny the estorics I just have focused towards the communicative aspect I like to take things one at a time. At one point in this thread even mid way through people still said gallo demons and aliens and denied the language I do not dismiss any till I get through it all demons and aliens are last as they use langauge made by man and fractured and rebuilt like the atom almost like einsteinium. we will talk later my friend


B-man

Edit: dis-ingenious I am not aware of this term? It is a splinter if what you say means what I think you are saying.
edit on 26-8-2013 by Brotherman because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 08:15 PM
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reply to post by Brotherman
 


To Bro-man: If I may as I'm here... "disingenuous" in Gut's usage refers to "the anti-language" that would make lying (or disingenuousness) of any stripe impossible, so he wasn't trying to jab you with any wood.

To any other poor soul reading this: Can you imagine total honesty... in today's world o' humans... just imagine a minute when snuggling with your current love with complete, utter honesty... either a revelation and infinitely self reflective, or a royal pain in one's posterior and self reflective.

The real world implications of the things they are looking into are a Pandora's box, to kill an exhausted cliche', in every sense. Just imagine if they are as apt as they seem. From computer language and developing nearly aware, super fast machines to modes of communication with every sort of intelligence even postulated to use of plasmas that might as well be magic... yeah.



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by Brotherman
reply to post by tetra50
 




Originally posted by tetra50 The reason FL would have been funded in this effort is what you seem to have quoted here, Gut. If communication is what creates, in large part, a culture, these cultures must also be broken down and substituted with one culture....


Communication does not create in large part culture. Language whether verbal, written, or kinesics, is only a limited window into an observer ('s) take on reality. Culture is formed through many different things such as location, lifestyle, etc etc. A language is a reflection of this but limited as words are not enough to explain exactly what it is someone is trying to say. Words are very limited in a way, consider you go to the home depot and ask for red paint, how many kinds of red paint do you think they have? Imagine if you could just look at my mind and know exactly what I see, feel, remember, and understand, at that point the idea of have to speak or write it down becomes an obsolete technology as you can experience my reality exact with out cookie cutter words. This is the basis of what they are doing at FL on the surface, I suggest digging up links I posted early on to understand wholly what it is I mean and apologize in advance if my explanation is to general as I can try and elaborate further if what I am trying to say is not good enough, it is a tricky aspect.


Perhaps you neglected to read the rest of what you lifted that quote from and the information I supplied above, after your information about Dr. Mangano (sorry if I've misspelled his name). Also, I might add, you supplied the link to that info about him, and what agencies his work may be funded by now.

I guess I think you are interpreting my thoughts on this as some kind of "rushing to judgement," on what these folks are doing. I understand completely, in every way, what you mean as words being limited, and only one way culture is built. But still a very important way, as there are many ancient texts I think we've even misstranslated or lost the value of consdierably and perhaps, forever, in these "modern" times, simply because in one languarge a word meant more than we had an English word to express the same. Or outright, and purposeful mistranslations, as well, because I think there is strong evidence we've been in the midst of culture breakdown and some kind of homogenization for quite some time. Or perhaps it's happened in a big circle, over and over, again, trying to "get it right," accordiing to whomever or whatever is performing this experiment, and putting life in the middle of, clueless, in many ways.....

Thoughtforms got me thinking too early in the morning, really, for looking into it. But some things here started to sound a lot like H.P. Lovecraft's At The Mountains of Madness, especially when looking, once again, as a member posted it, the symbolic, geometric and many colored Cassini Diskus. So, I spent a bit of the morning looking for a picture I had seen once on a paperback copy of the book, as there was something similiar to what I saw in their Cassini Diskus to that picture of the H. P. Lovecraft story. I didn't find the picture, but just am reminding all who have read it long ago, or those who haven't at all, here's a little synopsis:


The story is told in first-person perspective by the geologist William Dyer, a professor at Miskatonic University. He writes to disclose hitherto unknown and closely kept secrets in the hope that he can deter a planned and much publicized scientific expedition to Antarctica. On a previous expedition there, scholars from Miskatonic University led by Dyer discovered fantastic and horrific ruins and a dangerous secret beyond a range of mountains higher than the Himalayas. A smaller advance group led by Professor Lake, discovered and crossed the mountains and found the remains of 14 ancient life forms, completely unknown to science and unidentifiable as either plants or animals. Six of the specimens are badly damaged and the others uncannily pristine. Their highly evolved features are problematic: their stratum location puts them at a point on the geologic time scale much too early for such features to have naturally evolved yet.


Not giving the full synopsis in interest of space, but just outlining some reasons I found similiarities to FL and some of their stated intents:


Dyer and a graduate student named Danforth fly an airplane over the mountains, which they soon realize are the outer walls of a huge, abandoned stone city of cubes and cones, utterly alien compared with any human architecture. Because of their resemblance to creatures of myth mentioned in the Necronomicon, the builders of this lost civilization are dubbed the "Elder Things". By exploring these fantastic structures, the men are able to learn the history of
edit on 26-8-2013 by tetra50 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 09:04 PM
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con't ex-text:

the Elder Things through interpreting their magnificent hieroglyphic murals: The Elder Things first came to Earth shortly after the Moon was pulled loose from the planet and were the creators of life. They built their cities with the help of "Shoggoths", biological entities created to perform any task, assume any form, and reflect any thought. As more buildings are explored, a fantastic vista opens of the history of races beyond the scope of man's understanding, including the Elder Things' conflicts with the Star-spawn of Cthulhu and the Mi-go, who arrived on Earth some time after the Elder Things themselves. The images also reflect a degradation in the order of this civilization, as the Shoggoths gain independence. As more resources are applied to maintaining order, the etchings become haphazard and primitive. The murals also allude to some unnamed evil in an even larger mountain range just past their city, which even they fear greatly. Eventually, as Antarctica became uninhabitable even for the Elder Things, they migrated into a large, subterranean ocean.


The "Shoggoths," being almost a thought form and a biological entity (that had me, too, trying to figure out the EBO thing) along with the "hieroglyphics," which if I could find the picture look a little more like something called "Logoforms. Reearch on this can be found on Wiki, as well as where I got that abbreviated synopsis of the book.

Getting back to FL, though, and Dr. Mangano's specialties, there is much beyond the language, obviously going on here. And as I stated before, the deconstructionism, comments about Indo-Europeans, and the sciences Mangano seems to specializae in, combined with an obvious interest in the esoteric, do not present an all too pleasant "scope," if you will, of motivations. And perhaps also, the science to achieve what that scope seems to entail. If one concentrates, I think, too much on the "language/sound/thought," combination, and falls in love, a it were, with just the intellectualism presented, it may be quite dangerous territory---though I admit I've used imagination to uphold that in this view. But some things are not so new, and esoteric dark arts certainly are not.
And Lovecraft's work is filled with similar themes being explored here.

I also, just for interest, explored the Cassini concept. Of course, we named an entirely robotic spaceship Cassini, outfitted with a Cyclops camera. And then there's also this interesting piece I found, and thought worth a read (as Cassini Diskus, disc being round as the earth,): Cassini

Cassini
What would the world be like if the land masses were spread out the same way as now - only rotated by an angle of 90 degrees?
—Socke


What a read, and what a way to decontruct culture....
edit on 26-8-2013 by tetra50 because: (no reason given)



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