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The Language of Vampyr

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posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by Doodle19815
 


I've left a verification note at FL. Please proceed to forgottenlanguages-full.forgottenlanguages.org... to check it.




posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 02:50 PM
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reply to post by Direne
 


OK. Got it.
Do you suppose his is why the legal system (at least here in Americuh) uses Latin as well?

ETA: I too appreciate you taking time to chat with us. Very cool of you.



edit on 15-7-2013 by JayinAR because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 02:50 PM
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reply to post by Direne
 


Yay, ATS got a mention on ForgottenLanguages! Pretty cool guys. Once again, thank you Direne.

Might you tell me if Direne is a username and why you chose it?



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 02:51 PM
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reply to post by Direne
 


Howdy, Direne, it was awful swell of you to swing by.

I have several questions, thanks in advance for fielding them.

1. Who is funding your work?

2. If you are independent contractors developing this software, how does your employer intend to use it?

3. Are you attempting to develop a universal language, and if so, why?



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 02:57 PM
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reply to post by Direne
 



Hello and welcome... expect LOTS of questions



edit on 15-7-2013 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 03:02 PM
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reply to post by Brotherman
 


Hello Brotherman. The best starter in phonosemantics is Margaret Magnus' dissertation. I am sure you can find it in the internet, in PDF format. In case you do not find it, I can make available a copy to you. Additionally, Margaret used to have a website with examples and even some tests for you verify her theory. As far as I understand, she made the observation that words related to some actions (say, to strike) do always contain the same phonemes, even when the words are not etymologicaly related. Mind that this observation are language specific and, some times, language-family specific.

More interesting are her experiments in which she showed her students abstracts images and asked them to give them a name. It came out that most of the students invented words that were quite similar, though the students were working in isolation. The key ideal experiment would be to show someone an object he/she has never seen, and ask him/her to invent a word to name it. If you prove that there is a statistical correlation between the answers of several individuals, in the sense that they invent words using the same phonemes, that would point to the fact that there is a correlation between how humans perceive objects and how they name those objects. The question then is: why is this so?



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 03:07 PM
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reply to post by Direne
 


And what does it say about the minority of folks that give the object a unique name... interesting stuff.



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by Eidolon23
 


@doodle19815: Direne is a modern form of the ancient name, Dwryne. It is my name. I ignore if that name is used today, but I recall having seen some Dwrynes in the phone listing of Canada. Can't say for sure.

@Eidolon23:

1. We have no funding. We do what we do on our own behalf.

2. We have no employer. I guess the applications would be mainly research and Defense. But the system we are working on is not for sale.

3. It is not that we are developing a universal language, rather, it is that languages coalesce, and diverge,
and coalesce again. We are interested in simulating natural language evolution. That's only one part of the system. Some of us are more interested in synesthesia, language processing during coma, language processing during deep sleep phase, language visualization, and pre-lexical retrieval (identifying the words you are going to say just before you speak them out).



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by Direne
 



My first question will have to be do you consider yourself in any way a secret society, or a society that concerns itself with secrecy...?



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by Direne
 


Well now if this didn't just get a little more interesting...

Welcome Direne.

I would like to ask you a few questions, if I may?

Do you follow Noam Chomsky's theory of Universal Grammar or do you follow Michael Hallidays' views?

Do you believe society influences language or does language program and influence society?

Are you creating Anti-language with Cassini Diskus (or any other invented forms of communication) as a precursor to trying to create a new society (culture) or is the interest purely academic?


Thank you for your time, and please excuse any of my nativity on the subject.

edit on 15-7-2013 by abeverage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by Doodle19815
 


Doodle19815, the references in FL to vampyrical languages is twofold. If you visit our entry forgottenlanguages-full.forgottenlanguages.org... you will verify what the definition of a vampyrical language is: "A substrate language that predates syntactical, lexical, and semantic structures belonging to another language, usually under language contact situations". Romani is a very good example of such a language, constantly borrowing lexical and even complete syntactical structures from the dominant language to which it enters into contact. That is what we call a vampyrical language.

However, you are right. There are also vampyrical languages in the sense of a private language or cryptolect used by specific communities along human history, communities that set aside from the mainstream for cultural and/or religious reasons. Whether they call themselves vampyres or not is not clear to me.



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 03:40 PM
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This thread reminds me of the old days of ATS


Firstly, congratulations to the OP for once again demonstrating her excellent eye for the unusual, but as importantly, well done to all those who had the temerity to go to the horse's mouth. As my Mum always used to say, you don't get anywhere in this life without asking.

And finally, thank you Direne for taking the time to come here to answer any and all questions, I am sure that you are going to find that quite the undertaking. I am fascinated by what you and your colleagues are doing, deeply impressed that you are conducting this blue sky work without funding, but that means, hopefully, no compromises.

I very much look forward to hearing more from you...so guys, don't go burning her out too quickly!

Really well done, great team work chaps.



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by Direne
 


Yes I have this .pdf "What is in a Word" this is quite a lengthy paper

M. Magnus Dissertation (phonosemantics)

Also have recently read the transcriptions from V.S. Ramachandran in regards to synesthesia, I learned quite a bit about about his theory of the biological connections in the brain, very interesting phenomenon. And I am still having a hard time getting through Connor Mclennan research in Representation of Lexical Form this will probably have to be spoon fed to me in parts as there is some difficult concepts in there for me.

Also is there a way that you can hook it up so we can hear what Cassani Diskus is like?

Thank You
edit on 15-7-2013 by Brotherman because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-7-2013 by Brotherman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by Kantzveldt
 


Hello Kantzveldt. I suppose we are a secret society much as you are a secret family when you close the door of your house. I wouldn't call it "secret", but "private". There is no full privacy today, as I am sure you know, specially these days in which the massive tampering of private communications and emails has been voiced by Mr. Snowden. Having your own cryptolect helps a lot. That's the only "secrecy". As I see it, this is in fact the only private thing you may have soon.



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 03:58 PM
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Might I ask where you see your project going? I know that you said where it could be applied, but I wander what the ultimate goal is for your group? If it is not for sale, then do you merely see it as a hobby?

Also, as a fun question, meaning no disrespect, do you see yourself as vampire or on the level of vampire? (We must put the issue to rest.)

Addition- I just refreshed my page and saw your response to vampirical language. Thank you.
edit on 15-7-2013 by Doodle19815 because: Addition



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 04:01 PM
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reply to post by Direne
 


Welcome to ATS Direne, pleased to meet you and have you here!

First off your guys work is incredible and I am merely a layman if you will, when it comes to the more technical side of languages but studying a few languages myself I realize the technicality and skill it takes so hats off to you friend.

My question is have you have you guys looked for or tried to detect a mother language ? Something that gave birth to all languages and where they originate from? According to this article they have traced it back as far as 9000 years.

www.outsidethebeltway.com...

Or is this outside the realm of your work? It appears you guys are focused on the future of language (antilanguage) so is my question even relevant..

edit: I read one of your post on margaret's work, so it almost seems like language is a natural part of human function... My question still stands but I think I know the answer.
edit on 15-7-2013 by CitizenJack because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by abeverage
 


Hello. Those are questions that need a lenghty answer. I will give you some hints, and then we can proceed with the details.

Most of the team at FL do agree with Chomsky's theory of Universal Grammar, but modulated with Hallidays' views on the role of sociocultural influence. Our main criticism to Chomsky's theory is that he assumes all brains are the same, something that is not clear to us. Unless we have a clear definition of what means 'a human brain'. For what concerns Hallidays' proposal, I would say that he assumes that sociocultural environment affect equally on all individuals, something which I'm afraid I cannot agree. I feel that it is in the study of child language acquisition that some answers can be found, but I strongly advocate for the study of language in extreme scenarios: coma, altered state of consciousness, stress, schizophrenia, trance, autistic individuals, etc.

To know about matter, you need to apply high energies and actually break it into its essential components; similarly, to really know about language you need to go to extreme situations: you need to 'torture' language itself. It is when you are close to a total collapse of language that language reveals its secrets. That's my view.

Your question "Do you believe society influences language or does language program and influence society?" is quite difficult to answer. It is the so-called Whorfian dilemma. I guess it is a two-way interaction. However, my view is that language is the only way we have to describe reality. As language is part of that reality, you cannot simply rely on language to know reality: your conclusions will be limited by language itself. If you are exposed to aspects of reality that language cannot describe properly, your knowledge about those aspects will be extremely limited.

A good example is quantum gravity (or just quantum mechanics). The math here is more powerful than language itself. You cannot describe properly the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen experiment or the quantum nonlocality. The sentence "The photon is in two places at the same time" means nothing if expressed using natural language. The quantum world does not have "here" and "there". If you were to be reduced to the size of a photon, language would collapse.

Cassini Diskus is an experiment to cope precisely with those scenarios in which language collapses. We noticed that each time you change the scale of a problem, language should change accordingly. Otherwise, it proves useless as a means for communication.



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by Direne
 


Hello Direne and welcome.


The work you and the others do is fascinating.

My question, is perhaps a little different. I have an area of interest in teams, how people work together, how the "whole can be greater than the sum of the parts", etc.

So, how did the group at FL come about?



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 04:24 PM
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reply to post by CitizenJack
 


In regards to the link you posted on your last comment regarding a mother language I was reading a few days ago trying to get a grasp of proto-language quite a bit of information regarding proto-Bantu from Africa and the way it is believed to have been formed into swahili or something like that If I find that link again I will post it for you but there was a whole wealth of study into the African langauge and theories as how it spread.



posted on Jul, 15 2013 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by Doodle19815
 


No, it is not a hobby. Perhaps a passion. We simply consider that speaking out words is the last step in a complex process, a step that can be removed (and should be removed) if we wish to communicate in those situations in which language collapses and is of no use. If the brain adopts a given specific measurable configuration milliseconds before opening your mouth to pronounce a word, why pronouncing a word at all? Couldn't be better to 'read' that neural configuration somehow? And, wouldn't be wonderful if you could read that neural configuration at a distance? Same for images. If your brain takes a particular, measurable, configuration when exposed to an external image, wouldn't be better to learn how to read that configuration in order to 'see' the image your communication partner is seeing mentally?

We feel that's possible. At least, we feel that's where evolution is leading us.




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