The Language of Vampyr

a reply to: boozo

I did read what you had to say before the edit, sorry I didn't comment back sooner. I get ya bro.

originally posted by: Bybyots
a reply to: ATODASO

As it turns out, i don't agree with you, but i do like where you went with that.

For the record, I didn't really go there with that, William Bloom did.

He gained the knowledge that led him to write about it due to performing the "Abramelin Operation" while on a spiritual retreat in the Atlas mountains and he wrote about the idea in his tiny book, Devas, Fairies and Angels: A Modern Approach.

His writing is what put the idear in my head in the first place, and my spin on it came from studying Humanities, Information Tech. and struggling through math classes all mixed up in the same semesters.

Areas that are sometimes regarded as social sciences and sometimes as humanities include history, archaeology, anthropology, area studies, communication studies, classical studies, law, politics, semiotics and linguistics.

Humanities

You might notice that the statement above from WikiPedia is disputed, but I tend to agree with it.

W. Bloom also wrote The Sacred Magician: A Ceremonial Diary, which I remember as having been an awesome read.

Bloom's The Sacred Magician was a wonderful work of fiction. I have a first edition copy from years ago. Looking at him now I have a hard time believing he contacted his HGA and gained some wisdom from the spiritual realm that would give him some advantage over mortals..




None the less a good read!

a reply to: Digital_Reality

Bloom's The Sacred Magician was a wonderful work of fiction.

It is, isn't it? There are parts (small parts) that were absolutely riveting, some of the imagery created while reading it has stayed with me for nearly 25 years.

I believe that he was 25 or 26 when he "did" the Abramelin. I have been thinking about that age a lot lately in relation to myself.

In India (as tradition seemingly has it) men and women would not enter the ashram to study yoga until they had passed a certain age in their forties, closing on 50.

Here in the states, we seem to try to do it the other way around.

I know that at that age I couldn't think of a single thing that was more important.

I think it might also have to do with the book-itself. Doesn't the book include some caveat about not attempting the operation until one has passed 25? Or 25 being the least age at which the operation should be started?

Have I got that right?

Thanks for noticing the post.

originally posted by: Bybyots
a reply to: Digital_Reality

Bloom's The Sacred Magician was a wonderful work of fiction.

It is, isn't it? There are parts (small parts) that were absolutely riveting, some of the imagery created while reading it has stayed with me for nearly 25 years.

I believe that he was 25 or 26 when he "did" the Abramelin. I have been thinking about that age a lot lately in relation to
In India (as tradition seemingly has it) men and women would not enter the ashram to study yoga until they had passed a certain age in their forties, closing on 50.

Here in the states, we seem to try to do it the other way around.

I know that at that age I couldn't think of a single thing that was more important.

I think it might also have to do with the book-itself. Doesn't the book include some caveat about not attempting the operation until one has passed 25? Or 25 being the least age at which the operation should be started?

Have I got that right?

Thanks for noticing the post.

Yup..

his age ought not to be less than twenty-five years nor more than fifty;

Its a pretty brutal process of tearing yourself down and building back up spiritually.

originally posted by: Bybyots
I think it might also have to do with the book-itself. Doesn't the book include some caveat about not attempting the operation until one has passed 25? Or 25 being the least age at which the operation should be started?

Have I got that right?

Do you think that he meant it as an actual point, in physical development or as an indicator of where you should be in your "studies"? I took it to be the latter.

"Seek not out the things that are too hard for thee, neither search the things that are above thy strength. But what is commanded thee, think thereupon with reverence; for it is not needful for thee to see with thine eyes the things that are in secret."

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Anaana

Do you think that he meant it as an actual point, in physical development or as an indicator of where you should be in your "studies"? I took it to be the latter.

Gosh, that's a good question that I have also thought about off and on.

I'm not sure.

If we are talking about just the Abramelin-thing, I'm least sure of all. The book is one of those things that's special to me because of the way that it is networked-in with myself and some of my closest peeps, so I have never been in a rush to take the Google upside its head and possibly spoil any of my precious nostalgia. You have to be careful with that sort of thing when you are an ATS member; beliefs die fast and hard around here.

All that to say that I don't know what the prevailing cultural economy looked like when Lamech was a kid, so I don't know what to think really. Was 25 old then? Hold on...taking the date of 1458, maybe I can...hold on:

A quick check reveals that folks didn't live very long back then, it is looking like 35-45. I mean, I just have never been able to really decide what the deal was with the age thing. I've thought sometimes that maybe it had to do with basically accomplishing whatever it was that would allow someone to break out of ordinary societal mechanisms for long enough to get the deed done without the aspirant's world blowing apart. That's why it seemed like such a good idea to us youngsters, I think, because life was already simple and it didn't seem like such a big deal to back-scale things for 9 months, or whatever.

originally posted by: Bybyots
All that to say that I don't know what the prevailing cultural economy looked like when Lamech was a kid, so I don't know what to think really. Was 25 old then? Hold on...taking the date of 1458, maybe I can...hold on:

A quick check reveals that folks didn't live very long back then, it is looking like 35-45. I mean, I just have never been able to really decide what the deal was with the age thing. I've thought sometimes that maybe it had to do with basically accomplishing whatever it was that would allow someone to break out of ordinary societal mechanisms for long enough to get the deed done without the aspirant's world blowing apart. That's why it seemed like such a good idea to us youngsters, I think, because life was already simple and it didn't seem like such a big deal to back-scale things for 9 months, or whatever.

The author says he is 79 years old at the time of writing. The literate classes had a greater life expectancy at all times, but 79 is still pretty good going. In terms of his son, evidently that the author chose to write in German and not Hebrew indicates that he didn't know his son's educational background or whether he was "learned" or not.

Mathers' translation is incomplete and incorrect in places, or so I am told, I have not compared the two...but for the study of book one alone, six months is recommended, and from completion of the operation, an 18 month turnaround.

I read book one just the once, I'm not interested in the operation as such, so I shall not be the one to disturb your nostalgia or shatter your beliefs.

a reply to: Anaana

Mathers' translation is incomplete and incorrect in places, or so I am told,

I know. Thanks to you, Dream Crusher.

...so I shall not be the one to disturb your nostalgia or shatter your beliefs.

♬ Too Late ♬

I know. It didn't take long the last time I checked and it took even less long this time I checked to see that it's a mess.

Listen, as far as age, and physical development and "spiritual" endeavors go: Whatever the assumption about age is that is represented by the book denoting the age of 25, it seems to me that it would necessarily have to do with maturity on all levels of human beingness.

To try to keep things on topic, so that no one will come along and tell us that we are off-topic, I would say that it is an issue of context.

A person is probably best off that has enough life experience to provide the context with which to absorb the extraordinary pay-load of information that might be unleashed by performing the Abramelin Operation.

Whether or not it is bull# of any nameable sort

originally posted by: Bybyots
I know. Thanks to you, Dream Crusher.

Well, ya know, I'm kind of wondering what result that you and your mates got, and the intervening, what...twenty years?..in which you had to work with that result...I'm not feeling all that bad about whatever crushing effect I had if that is all it took. Besides, it worked for Crowley et al (from his perspective) too, and he was working with the same material you had and despite having access to the "complete" but as then untranslated manuscripts, did not feel any "lack" or urge to check further. It seems fair to suggest that even without the additions an "effect" can be effected, whether the effect that can be effected is the effect that the author intended to be effected appears to be the question at hand.

originally posted by: Bybyots

♬ Too Late ♬

I know. It didn't take long the last time I checked and it took even less long this time I checked to see that it's a mess.

Listen, as far as age, and physical development and "spiritual" endeavors go: Whatever the assumption about age is that is represented by the book denoting the age of 25, it seems to me that it would necessarily have to do with maturity on all levels of human beingness.

Maturity is relative. In the 15th century a male child would be expected to begin his professional education around the age of 7, unless he was taking a more academic route, in which case he would be sent to school, or placed with a tutor. Either way, a boy of 7 would be expected, in almost all cases, to be living away from home. Given his social status, as a privileged Jew, Lamech could have entered into a whole wide array of professions, and at 25 he would be well acquainted with the mysteries associated with his profession and be a Master. That the author knows neither whether his son is "learned" or an "ordinary Jew" suggests Lamech was sent to school, or to a tutor, and some distance away, or indeed, that at the time of writing was too young for his path to have been determined. I would estimate that few Westernised 25 year olds today would possess the wherewithal, let alone the depth of experience, that Lamech would have at that age.

originally posted by: Bybyots
To try to keep things on topic, so that no one will come along and tell us that we are off-topic, I would say that it is an issue of context.

A person is probably best off that has enough life experience to provide the context with which to absorb the extraordinary pay-load of information that might be unleashed by performing the Abramelin Operation.

Whether or not it is bull# of any nameable sort

I am trying very hard here not to grind my heel into your already crushed dreams, but, it is apparent to me, from a single reading that the document (book one) is not what it literally appears to be. I cannot read German so I cannot say whether there are cyphers in the original text that a translation would obscure further, but I suspect not, it is a short, but comprehensive document that requires recursive involvement with to extract the pertinent details.

The first principle of Judaism is question everything.

*whisper* I don't think there was a son.

a reply to: Anaana

Well, ya know, I'm kind of wondering what result that you and your mates got, and the intervening, what...twenty years?..in which you had to work with that result...

Short answer: Did you see Withnail & I?

originally posted by: Bybyots
a reply to: Anaana

Well, ya know, I'm kind of wondering what result that you and your mates got, and the intervening, what...twenty years?..in which you had to work with that result...

Short answer: Did you see Withnail & I?

Frequently.

And, on that note, I feel assuaged of all responsibility in the crushing of your dreams. It's not me, it's you!

a reply to: Digital_Reality
a reply to: Bybyots

I was wondering whether "William Bloom" was a pen name so had a look around for his biography, I think wikipedia page as well as his official site, state that The Sacred Magician is his diary from his sojourn with the Berbers, not as the two of you concurred, that it was a work of fiction. His background is kind of "spooky" too, the kind of spook that runs in some families and gets recruited at the London School of Economics. This therefore raised the further wonder of why you twos consider it fiction but the blurb says it's a diary, any more on that, please?

This may seem off topic, but I am considering it in terms of educational advantage, and the particular benefits of a classical education as previously discussed in symbolic language versus plain speaking in art (thereabouts in summary). The other night I was reading The Voyage of the Argo, and it suddenly dawned on me what an utter genius James Joyce was. I then had to get up and look up how old he was when he wrote it...not too depressed that he was 40 when published. Having Leopold Bloom in mind, though it was Gertie MacDowell that informed my reading of the Argonauts, made me consider whether William Bloom was a pseudonym. I don't think it is, but the enquiry has stirred up other detritus of note. What do you mean by "fiction"?

Cheers

This is super interesting. Very curious indeed! I'm also posting so I don't lose the thread, my vampire lovin friend is gonna get a kick out of this. Its way more interesting than most 'vampire' related things I've read about and a pleasant change from the very fictitious spoopy stuff thats all too common.

originally posted by: Anaana
a reply to: Digital_Reality
a reply to: Bybyots

I guess I'm patiently waiting for naught. Not to worry.

And, apologies, I hadn't realised that Crowley hadn't completed the operation...hmm...the incomplete operation I suppose that should be, in which case, since Bloom worked from Mathers, he didn't complete it either but he thinks he did and that appears to have been, in one way or another, sufficient for Bloom and I don't really see why it shouldn't have been, he seems like an intelligent man. Either way, I haven't read the Sacred Magician, and doubt that I will, so I'll consider the matter closed due to an overall lack of revelance.

Ta

a reply to: Anaana

...he didn't complete it either but he thinks he did and that appears to have been, in one way or another, sufficient for Bloom...

Well how is that not relevant?

There probably wasn't even an Abramelin.

originally posted by: Bybyots
Well how is that not relevant?

There probably wasn't even an Abramelin.

I don't know if it matters whether there was or not, just as I feel that if all you ever had read of the book was Book One, you had enough information to complete the "operation" as was intended by the author. That is why I asked why you and Digital Reality thought the Sacred Magician was a work of fiction? That neither of you responded indicated to me that it was irrelevant to the both of you, I think it is relevant, but I can talk to myself all I like, I don't need to come here to do it.

Also, I might point out, I am not following the instructions because I don't think they will work, on the contrary, I actually think they could and an angel shadowing me would sooooo get on my tits in a very short space of time.

a reply to: Anaana

That neither of you responded indicated to me that it was irrelevant to the both of you, I think it is relevant,

Oh me too, it's just that I had to really think about it and the fact is that I don't know if it's fiction or not. I think that if we dug in to it we could easily cast a strong shadow of doubt upon the origins of the text and its publishing history (as it is generally known).

Also, I might point out, I am not following the instructions because I don't think they will work, on the contrary, I actually think they could and an angel shadowing me would sooooo get on my tits in a very short space of time.

I came close once, many years ago, to being availed of a piece of property that was remote and isolated enough to satisfy what I thought would work for me. I never went. I'm glad I didn't, I kept getting visionary flashes of myself draped in a towel digging for tubers in the woods.

If I recall correctly, William Bloom was sick for a really long time after he performed the operation and it took him quite a while to rejoin society. Maybe the Angel was all, like, " Ah hell no! We're starting from scratch!", like a mandatory vacation or something?

originally posted by: Bybyots
If I recall correctly, William Bloom was sick for a really long time after he performed the operation and it took him quite a while to rejoin society. maybe the Angel was all, like, " Ah hell no! We're starting from scratch!", like a mandatory vacation or something.

This is difficult, concerned as I am about crushing dreams, but you'd really have to want it to work to make it work, and that is going to make you ill, and that's the point, and how you direct experience to a predetermined outcome.

a reply to: Anaana

That sounds right to me.

a reply to: Bybyots

Phew! I feel like I'm walking on egg shells round here.