One Soul, Many Bodies: The Case for Reincarnation

reply to post by windword


I admire your enthusiasm in this matter, but for some reason you keep bringing up people and groups that the early church father's spoke against. I don't get why.

The Church Fathers wrote against the Ebionites and deemed them heretical Judaizers. Their earlier history and any relation to the first Jerusalem church remains obscure and a matter of contention. There is no evidence linking the origin of the later sect of the Ebionites with the First Jewish-Roman War of 66–70 CE, or that prior to that they formed part of the Jerusalem church led by Jesus' brother James. en.wikipedia.org...

The early church also spoke against The Gnostics, noticeably Irenaeus, who's book Against Heresies was a detailed attack on Gnosticism. The Gnostics claimed that they possessed a secret oral tradition from Jesus himself, Irenaeus maintained that the bishops in different cities are known as far back as the Apostles—and none of them was a Gnostic. en.wikipedia.org...

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that were people who called themselves Christians held such a view back then. Again, my point here is that those teachings were not held by any of the original followers of Christ. I'm sure there were many people who were around at the time of Jesus who decided to form their own groups and ideas of what Jesus was talking about. Such behavior is common among people. But keep in mind that the church and it's original teachings were founded by the apostles of Christ and these teachings have been well preserved in history.

It makes no sense to follow the doctrines of people who were not taught by one of the original 12 apostles.

I won't go into the "born again" and story of John the Baptist, for such topics can only be understood by those empowered by the Holy Spirit, it would be fruitless for me to try and explain them. After all, not everything Jesus said was to be taking literally.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


The Catholic church may claim to be the originators of and the only true Christian church, but as history shows, they have acted as anything but Christian in their handling of politics and human rights.

Jesus wasn't a Catholic and neither were any of the apostles. To understand the roots of Christianity, we need to look past the Catholic Church. Many early Christians did believe in reincarnation, and the Bible supports it.

You need the Holy Spirit to understand these secret, sacred and mysterious teachings.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

It makes no sense to follow the doctrines of people who were not taught by one of the original 12 apostles.

You mean people like Paul?

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

The Catholic church may claim to be the originators of and the only true Christian church, but as history shows, they have acted as anything but Christian in their handling of politics and human rights.

Jesus wasn't a Catholic and neither were any of the apostles. To understand the roots of Christianity, we need to look past the Catholic Church. Many early Christians did believe in reincarnation, and the Bible supports it.

You need the Holy Spirit to understand these secret, sacred and mysterious teachings.

I'm not saying that the Catholic's are the true church. Just because they took over later down the line doesn't mean that they are the founders or that they even hold the original teachings. The first Christian community was centered in Jerusalem and its leaders included Peter, James, and John.

You keep claiming that the early Christians believed in reincarnation, but you have yet to provide any evidence which supports this claim. Where are your references that any of the apostles or their disciples taught such doctrine? If Jesus really meant that you had to be reincarnated in order to go to heaven, don't you think some of those ideas would have been spoke upon by some of the early writers in order to confirm such a teaching, if it were true?

It is better to just say that "I believe in reincarnation, no matter what", then trying to prove it with sources such as the Bible or early Christians who clearly never supported such an idea. No matter how hard you try, the evidence that this view was held by early Christians just isn't there.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

It makes no sense to follow the doctrines of people who were not taught by one of the original 12 apostles.

You mean people like Paul?

Come on bro, I said "people who were not taught by one of the original 12 apostles". Paul was a student of Peter and confirmed him in the faith. Are you saying Peter was a liar?

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


Actually Paul wasn't a student of Peter, I'm not really sure where you heard that.

Also, 2 Peter's authorship has been debated throughout history, and most modern scholars agree that Peter was not its author.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


Well, since there is evidence of Jesus teaching reincarnation in the book of Matthew and the book of John, I'd say that apostles DID teach reincarnation. No matter how hard the Catholic church and present day brainwashed deniers try to deny it, and twist the facts, early Christians did teach and believe in reincarnation.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

Actually Paul wasn't a student of Peter, I'm not really sure where you heard that.

Also, 2 Peter's authorship has been debated throughout history, and most modern scholars agree that Peter was not its author.

Student may have been the wrong term. But you have to agree that these two were together in the same area at the same time. They even died on the same day. Did they have conflicts amongst each other? Of course, but this does not prove that they learned nothing from each other or didn't do there best to pass down the original teachings of Christ.

Alot of authors authorship have been debated when it comes to ancient times. But hey, I guess we all pick and chose which ones we want to believe.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

......I'd say that apostles DID teach reincarnation. No matter how hard the Catholic church and present day brainwashed deniers try to deny it, and twist the facts, early Christians did teach and believe in reincarnation.

No you can't. All you can really say is that, according to your interpretation, Jesus taught reincarnation. It's a no brainier that if the early church really believed that, there would be alot more evidence to support it. But let me guess, those teachings were destroyed. Yeah right, it's the same excuse people have been using for years when they can't find any solid proof for their theories.

The only one being brainwashed is you. You want it so badly that your willing to push all the facts to the side and go with your own belief. You want Jesus to say and mean something that he didn't. Why you do this I don't know. Maybe like Origen, you want the best of both worlds, by mixing the pagan beliefs with the truth.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


The evidence is there for anyone to see. It's in the Bible, it's in the Essene / Ebonite documents. It's in Origen's and Jerome's writings, it's in the Nag Hammadi Libraries.

Like I said, you need the "Holy Spirit" to understand these esoteric and mysterious teachings.

reply to post by windword




Turning the tables are we?

I love it!

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


Paul only quotes Jesus one time throughout his 13 epistles, so it's strange that you say they tried to pass down Jesus' teachings as best they could. If Paul was trying to pass down Jesus' teachings, he would have quoted him more than one time, but he didn't.

I wasn't aware that they died on the same day. Peter and Paul have LOTS of similarities it seems. I even have a thread that talks about that HERE if you care to check it out.

I'll stop this line of discussion here though, because it's off-topic.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

The evidence is there for anyone to see. It's in the Bible, it's in the Essene / Ebonite documents. It's in Origen's and Jerome's writings, it's in the Nag Hammadi Libraries.

Like I said, you need the "Holy Spirit" to understand these esoteric and mysterious teachings.

I'll give you the Ebonite and Origen teachings. But when it comes to the Bible there is no such evidence. That is all according your own interpretation, or should I say, the interpretation of someone else who you believe in.

Yeah it's all secret, lol. You sound like all the rest, the truth is always hidden and kept secret from the people when it comes to God's Word for some reason. Who's the one being controlled by so called secret knowledge? You must consider yourself among the elect, since you know all these hidden mysteries. Ok, to each their own I guess.

The Holy Spirit does not hide mysteries, it reveals, other wise they would not be revealed in the first place.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Paul had a different role when it came to spreading the message. From what I see Peter was the expert on the teachings of Christ, for he witnessed them first hand and therefore was more qualified to quote his words. Paul's role was to go into greater detail about the law and it's meaning, since Paul was an expert on the law it makes sense. IMO, Jesus brought the two together so that over all message would be perfectly clear to all.

But I agree this is not the place to talk about these two.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


Pardon the interruption here... but I was wondering

IF you personally had no experiences with being a "Christian" and someone told you that you must be born again... what would immediately come to your mind?

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


I'd say your interpretation is based on other people's, not windword's, namely pastors and priests. Most Christians are force fed a certain interpretation at church until they begin to believe it. Searching for your own answers is frowned upon in Christianity.

If the Holy Spirit doesn't hide knowledge then why is certain knowledge only given to those who believe? That's a huge contradiction, because you believe only those with your version of the HS can interpret things the right way. So yes, your version of the HS does hide knowledge.

Born again is a pretty straight forward nod toward reincarnation, and was only kept in the bible to induce a type of reverse psychology on followers in my opinion, if that makes sense.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I'd say your interpretation is based on other people's, not windword's, namely pastors and priests. Most Christians are force fed a certain interpretation at church until they begin to believe it. Searching for your own answers is frowned upon in Christianity.

If the Holy Spirit doesn't hide knowledge then why is certain knowledge only given to those who believe? That's a huge contradiction, because you believe only those with your version of the HS can interpret things the right way. So yes, your version of the HS does hide knowledge.

Born again is a pretty straight forward nod toward reincarnation, and was only kept in the bible to induce a type of reverse psychology on followers in my opinion, if that makes sense.

edit on 13-7-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

It might be frowned upon among certain sects, but that's their problem. I don't follow any Christian sect, I read straight from the scriptures and let the Spirit guide me into all truth. Do I know everything? Of course not, the Holy Spirit reveals something new every day.

Knowledge is only hidden until the Holy Spirit reveals it. Once it is revealed the knowledge is available to all who will accept it.

As I've quoted before:

1 Corinthians 2
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

In other words you can never know the mysteries of God unless you are in tone with the Holy Spirit. Until you get in tone with the Holy Spirit certain things will be nothing but foolishness to you. But I'm sure that's foolishness to you.

reply to post by Akragon


Since I have already had this experience I can not give an honest response to that. Moreover, I chose not to discuss the born again topic. The only people who don't seem to understand it's meaning are those who want to incorporate reincarnation into the mix of Jesus teachings.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


Actually I would say the only way one can interpret the idea of being born again as the typical Christian does... is if said person has already been taught that meaning...

I wouldn't want to talk about the born again issue either...

mostly because it shows the lies of the church... twisting the obvious meaning into something that happens in this lifetime...

And fortunate for the people that so believe in reincarnation and understand it... this thread is about that topic

To each their own I suppose

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


Your interpretation seems to line up pretty well with what the church teaches.

Like Akragon says, there's no way you could have gotten your interpretation of "born again" unless you were taught that interpretation by the church. Anyone with a logical mind and a non-religious upbringing would most likely come to the conclusion that "born again" means exactly what it says, literally.

You yourself admitted that you were raised a Christian when asked Akragon's question, so it's obvious to me where you got your interpretation from.

What you just explained about the HS is what I think as well, but since you don't have the HS, the meaning hasn't been revealed to you. It's obvious what the meaning is.