Pay No Attention to the Man Behind the Curtain! Alleged Super-Skeptic Tells All!

Originally posted by CardDown
Do the moderators here ever revise thread titles? This discussion has broadened far beyond the original topic, and It would be nice if non-participants had a clue what was going on.

Only if you think the subject was Jim Oberg. Which it wasn't. It was his statements about some organizations within the US government that have either actively promoted and/or used false stories of UFOs/extraterrestrial visitation for varied and sometimes questionable reasons. Here's the first paragraph:

You know what I hate? Elitist jerks that jerk our chain as regards the very, imo, real UFO phenomenon. Those that would have us chase mythologies and lose sight of the cases that have merit and promise.

Richard Doty is a case in point.

reply to post by The GUT

Oh, I see! I was confusing the subject and the speaker.

I contacted Peter Merlin, aviation historian and one of the X-Hunters, and asked him if he knew of any examples of the military or intelligence agencies using UFOs as cover stories. He said the only thing he was aware of was the early spy plane flights, where the reflection of the sun on the fuselage was sometimes seen and reported as a UFO. In those cases, the agencies did not claim responsibility, they just remained silent. He also acknowledges that some portion of classified test flights produce UFO reports, but he has heard of no effort to intentionally blame activity on UFOs.

Peter is a good guy, and he knows people. I think if there was much to this, he'd have caught wind of it.

Originally posted by CardDown
I contacted Peter Merlin, aviation historian...Peter is a good guy, and he knows people. I think if there was much to this, he'd have caught wind of it.

While I appreciate your initiative, CD, I don't think one email to Peter Merlin constitutes case-closed on this subject. For one thing, we aren't just discussing this topic as relates to top-secret aircraft, but the larger field of intelligence operations which covers a much grander scale.

For example: Most researchers and authors agree that Bennewitz was fed bizarre UFO tales by government intelligence agents that have penetrated to a fair depth in our society. Or maybe you think there is truth to the Dulce stuff?

I'm not sure if you are familiar with topics like the so-called Pentacle Memo or the infiltration by intelligence professionals of the civilian UFO organizations like NICAP and APRO? Or even how versed you are in the history of psyops?

I'm not trying to crush anyone's carefully-crafted and maintained ET bubble. Heck, I'm all about some anomalous phenomena!! But I am picky about what information I absorb and I try to base it on not being afraid to go wherever the evidence might lead.

The CIA and the UFO Mythos

reply to post by The GUT

Dang, I it sounds like I stepped on your toes, or something, but I'll answer what you asked:

Well, it was two emails to Peter, and emails or letters to three others (who I've not permission to quote), but they all said about the same thing. But you are right, I was focusing exclusively on secret aircraft which is their area of expertise.

I agree that Rick Doty encouraged Paul Bennewitz. No, I don't think there was anything to the Dulce base story.

I am familiar with the Pentacle memorandum. What is your interpretation of it?. I thought it essentially said it would be nice to have a controlled experiment to check if what people see, is what they report seeing.

I am aware that UFO groups were monitored by intelligence agencies during the Cold War for their possible ties to Soviets, and that UFO groups are somewhat paranoid about infiltration by spies.

I am not well versed in the history of PSYOPS, and have only read a few books on the topic, none of which discussed UFOs as counterintelligence methods.

Earlier in this thread, I mentioned the CIA operation PBSUCCESS, which is the only known case where using a UFO as disinformation was considered. I've looked for others by them and other agencies. Aside from rumors, I haven't much besides the confusion of the Bennewitz episode.

I've given the matter some thought, looked into it, and failed to find any smoking guns. Please let me know what you find.

Originally posted by CardDown
I agree that Rick Doty encouraged Paul Bennewitz. No, I don't think there was anything to the Dulce base story.

Well, that's one case. No need for a smoking gun there. In the court of law that's called a precedent. And then we have:

I am familiar with the Pentacle memorandum. What is your interpretation of it?. I thought it essentially said it would be nice to have a controlled experiment to check if what people see, is what they report seeing.

I tend to agree with Jacques Vallee's assessment of the memo. I also proffer that if they considered/planned to stage events, I doubt they would/did inform any of the eyewitnesses that they had been bamboozled and, by extension, that in itself would add at least somewhat to the body of ufological disinformation.

Not, I agree, that that would have been the objective if the above is true---just a result. The following statement from the memo, though, seems pretty clear to me:

..Many different types of aerial activity should be secretly and purposefully scheduled within the area. ..

A Missing Pentacle

I am not well versed in the history of PSYOPS, and have only read a few books on the topic, none of which discussed UFOs as counterintelligence methods…I've given the matter some thought, looked into it, and failed to find any smoking guns. Please let me know what you find.

In addition to the concept of "precedent" we can certainly add "motive" and probably even "intent." :

"It is recommended that: a. The Director of Central Intelligence advise the National Security Council of the security implications inherent in the flying saucer problem. b. CIA, under its assigned responsibilities, and in cooperation with the psychological strategy board, immediately investigate possible offensive or defensive utilization of the phenomena for psychological warfare purposes both for and against the United States." 
  -- From a CIA declassified document on UFOs titled "Flying Saucers" and dated Sept. 7, 1952
www.wanttoknow.info...

There's more of course. Some of it in the thread I linked. I realize the topic isn't for everyone.

Some like to just focus on their belief in UFOs and the ETH. I like to spend some time pondering those things, too. It's just that--and I'm pretty sure I've made myself clear on this more than once here and elsewhere on the boards--I think we need to try and clean some of the gubmint horse dookie out of the stalls of ufology.

Further, if we manage to do that, we just might garner greater clues and maybe even uncover secrets that reveal the true nature behind the phenomena. Certainly there is no smoking gun in that area so far.

I'd almost forgottten I'd written James Oberg back in 2011, asking him about military projects being responsible for UFO sightings, and the Corona spy satellites in particular. His reply:

You are correct that a lot of classified US [and other nation] military activities may have sparked UFO reports. But 'Corona' satellites weren't that big and looked a lot like other satellites whose creation of pseudo-UFOs doesn't seem to have been plentiful. Still, chatting with retired military personal about activities they engaged in that led, inadvertently or not, to public 'UFO perceptions', would be a productive line of research.

Seems like a good idea, but be careful how you ask them. I've only had the opportunity to ask a few retired military men about causing accidental UFO reports, and they thought it was hogwash. I think if you have the time to ease into the topic, they may give a more thoughtful answer, and come up with some examples.

I posted a letter in 'Air Force' magazine's "quieries to retirees" section long ago looking for such accidental reports and got several interesting letters in reply, none of them earth-shaking. Some involved deliberate or accidental approaches to civilian aircraft, that were seen by passengers, but denied by the AF because the military flight crews had never reported them. Then there's my 'Broken Arrow' friend at Kirtland circa 1971 who reported -- hearsay, now -- that he used a 'crashed flying saucer' as a cover story for a nuke recovery exercise somewhere out west. No smoking guns, perhaps, but sightings of wisps of smoke...

I personally am looking forward to Greg Valdez' upcoming book. He had this to say in the following linked thread:

...Many people claim the government has hidden evidence of aliens, but in reality they are the ones that have started the majority of the alien stories and the book also documents this as well.

If you have time to do some research, look into microwave and laser propulsion systems and you will find a wealth of information. Do not type UFO technology when you search for this information. If you look at this specific technology you will see how it applies to Dulce and there is a wealth of knowledge if you know what you are looking for. I hope this answers some of your questions.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

That's just a small excerpt, his whole post is worth reading.

How Chris Lambright in X Descending ever managed to extrapolate "real UFOs" out of Bennewitz's story is beyond me. He makes the case for laser propulsion very well and then somehow ignores his own research and pulls a Giorgio: Aliens!

Don't get me wrong, though, it's a valuable book for many reasons and well worth the purchase price.

Jim: You seem to have backed off mightily in comparison to the tone and assertions of your Open Letter to CSETI. It's kind of puzzling.

In my mind, at this point, it can only mean one of two things: Either you are the cow-pucky artiste that many here claim...or someone, from some agency, did put the fear o' Sam into you.

Alas, The Evil Government hath once again prevailed for a subsequent call to Mr. Oberg revealed not the Righteously Indignant and Noble Seeker of Truth we had hoped, but rather an intimidated and downright terrified individual who had apparently been pushed around a bit by The Bully which calls itself our Deare Uncle Samuel. In fact, Mr. Oberg stated that he did not want his family involved in any of this and that he was now abandoning the field of UFOlogy altogether!

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Who was/is Brother Blue, Jim, btw?

Who Was/Is Blue Resonant Human?

As most people reading this far in this thread probably know, Dan Smith has had quite a bit of contact with various members of the Aviary over the years.

To enable more efficient and effective searching of the material on Dan Smith's Best Possible World website, I've created PDF copies of that website as at 2001 and 2013.

With Dan Smith's permission, I've uploaded the 2013 version to the link below:
app.box.com...

It is then possible to run EXTREMELY fast searches of the material on Dan's website (and, if you like, also at the same time search PDF copies of specified other websites, forums and official documents) for, say, Ron/Pandolfi/P/Catfish/CF/Mr P or Kit/Green/BJ.

Using various pieces of software (including the free PDF-XChange Viewer software I discussed in my post at the link below) it is then possible to see the context of each search hit and click on each hit to see the relevant text.  Using that free PDF, it is possible to run through a hundred relevant results in a couple of minutes.
www.abovetopsecret.com...