America's dawn

reply to post by supermarket2012

You said things haven't gotten bad enough for the average person to care. I highly disagree. I think things are much worse then they were when I was growing up in the early to mid 90s. I also think more people care now than ever. I think a more accurate expression would be that things haven't gotten bad enough yet for the vast majority of Americans to take actions that actually require a major sacrifice on their part, such as actually taking the time of their lives to participate in some form of revolution, whatever expression that revolution might take.

I agree, I should have worded my post better. You are correct though. Things have gotten steadily worse very quickly in the past 15-20 years. You cannot deny that there has been a steep decline in the average intelligence of people too. Young people especially have no idea how to really think and teach themselves. I think most people have the attitude of, "Well yeah, the governement does some messed up things, but there is nothing I can do about it." So they just keep themselves occupied with trying to get by and survive.

I think it is entirely far too easy to classify the average American as a "sheep", a term which I so often see on conspiracy theory sites, and among circles critical of the US government or establishment in general.

Normally, I don't use that term. Hence the parentheses. but I did this time because it is such a prevalent word on here.

Until things get bad enough to where close to HALF of the people in this country can't even afford to stay fed all the time...or have shelter all the time.....then I think that will be a turning point. I also think it is quite possible we are heading that way. On a related note....I have noticed our country becoming more and more of a police state....and I think this is EXACTLY why. I think they realize how bads things are getting, and how easy it could all go from bad to TERRIBLE in a few weeks. That is why I think we have the massive build up of ammo stockpiles....why we have homeland security beefing up all the police forces around the country....why we see whistleblowers being attacked harder then ever before....why our government is seemingly behaving in ways that are over the top, even for THEM. I hope I am wrong.

I agree 100 percent. The thing is, there is so much misinformation/disinformation out there people really have no idea who the real bad guys are. Everyone is quick to say Obama alone is destroying this country when in reality there are 545 people in Washington (along with a whole host of bureaucrats) that are directly responsible for every domestic problem plaguing us today. I also think that there have been so many "continuity of government" plans and the beast has so many heads that nobody can really chop them all off if there was some type of revolution.

I hope you're wrong too my friend.

reply to post by Helious


I'm standing on the same shore as you - watching the approaching tsunami and wondering exactly which way to run, because we're at the point where running is the only option.

Wondering when someone will take up the task of kicking off the revolution is time wasted. Many people fire the first shot, but nobody follows suit. Man attacks IRS with a plane - everyone nods their heads in agreement, then files for their refund. Peaceful protesters attacked and arrested en-mass, yet for all of our condemnation of the officers just "carrying out orders" - nobody does anything. We're spied on and accept it as the norm because - what are we gonna do about it?

We are a nation of individuals - kept separate by artificial labels and stupid judgments of opinion. Republican, democrat, conservative, liberal, libertarian, black, white, gay, jock, nerd, rock, rap, country. Soon, we'll all have something in common and share a common label - prisoner.

Good recap.

Good thread, good responses.


Its very very accurate, and Im watching from afar (Sweden) and I see it very clearly, and im happy you as americans also see it, but from the inside.



I just wanted to say that yes, we (as a people) are at the brink. But the brink of what? Its really up to us.
But time is literally running out, cause I believe "it" to happen around 2015-16, but no later than 2023.

What "it" is, is again up to us. Either its the dark ages, time of tyranny and anarchy (but governmental anarchy) - OR - its a time for freedom and (true)liberty.
[Or even scarier - the Alien Agenda turns out to be true as per Phil Schneider R.I.P]

We as a people have the power, not the 100 or so elite ("illuminati). However they got all the money in the world, all the political power, all the authoritarian power. BUT, we have the ultimate power.

Its just time to get a leader. We need a leader. Someone we can follow, and trust.

Alex Jones? No thank you. We need another type of leader, and fast!

reply to post by Helious


dont like it?

VOTE!

ORGANIZE!

you get a chance every 2 years to make a change, so take it.

dont get all butt-hurt that you lost, thats what happens in a democracy.

btw, it was the bush congress that gave the president all the powers that obama is using. if you dont want your opponent to use the rules you create, maybe you shouldnt change the rules.

Originally posted by stormson
reply to post by Helious

 

dont like it?

VOTE!

ORGANIZE!

you get a chance every 2 years to make a change, so take it.

dont get all butt-hurt that you lost, thats what happens in a democracy.

btw, it was the bush congress that gave the president all the powers that obama is using. if you dont want your opponent to use the rules you create, maybe you shouldnt change the rules.

If you genuinely belive you live in a democracy and that voting counts, you are very deep down.

reply to post by alienDNA


Yes, a leader would be nice - but any leader chosen can be:
1. killed (MLK, JFK, Honest Abe)
2. blackmailed (many-a-politician, dare I say - all of them, the successful ones anyway)
3. marginalized (he's not conservative/liberal/libertarian/black/white/hispanic/gay/straight/handsome)

The leader would need to be untouchable - and such a man (or woman) does not exist.

More than a leader, we really need a system of media that is not only widespread, but honest. The internet is great - but the major players are the same major players of the MSM (or they're related). Remember when the news wasn't just feelgood fluff, and the reporters weren't afraid to ask hard questions?

As I read in another thread earlier this week - a man said to his wife "this guy blew the whistle" and his wife (ATS member) said - "what whistle, we already knew all of that" (paraphrasing). Those of us who are outraged at what's going on have no "popular" support to spread the word.

reply to post by stutteringp0et


True. All you say is very true.

Some people like David Icke and Alex Jones seem to be untouchable. Why? Cus they mix madness and nonsense with valid truths, and eye-openers. However I dont like to mix the two together like that, due to the fact I still love David Icke even though 35% of what he writes in his books are probably just imagination, fantasy or at least unproven science. (I dont like to use the word "lies" because I really believe HE believes what he is writing is true.)


Anyway, the type of leader we need is indeed a tricky one, becuase as you say - people who speak real truth and to millions of people at once (JFK, MLK) they indeed get murdered.



Yes I do remember when the MSM actually went to the politicians and corporations "in your face" style.

Oh well, maybe "The peoples voice" will be something to look into when it launches. I for one is looking forward to it very much. It has potential.

But - again - the dilemma is -
If its proving to be super effective (no pokemon pun intended) then it could just as easily be shut down ;(

reply to post by Helious


What you say is true, sir. But I question, what if we just up and left? What if we all just leave the US?

Then some will question, "Where can we go?"

I know a couple of places, in a science book they are impossible due to that author's narrow view of the world.

Earth is hollow, and those who inhabit that sphere of Earth are Free. They have a connection that the Greed would pay billions for, when they got it just by walking around their home. No malevolent entity, less being, can dwell there due to how good of a connection there is to the Home.

They accept anyone, they are smarter than anyone on Earth Surface, they only know of peace and the futility of war.

There in that Paradise of Earth, you only live. No hunger, no thirst, no reason to sleep or rest your eyes, or to be worked by force.

There, you have the Choice.

reply to post by Helious


So I hear these explosions on here from time to time,American people sick and tired of their government and fed up with the status quo. I then turn on the news and what do I see? I see people in Egypt and Syria rising up against their governments one side or the other funded and supported by the US or the UK. So my question to you would be "what on earth do we do about it?". Wait until the whole thing implodes? Hope for divine intervention? How do you stop this runaway train that appears at times to be an unstoppable force?

People power is all that can help but I am afraid that the apathy, mental state and general ill health of our western society has been eroded to to the extent that we are now more like programmed zombies than individuals. To be honest I have kinda given up, it appears the majority of folk are content to let things continue on this path so long as they get their beer, pies and KFC.

Its a shame really, we had so much potential.

Originally posted by Helious

This madness will not end until we act, it will not end until every American is touched by the greed, the corruption, the fear and the brutality of this government, it will not end until we put a stop to it.

Hmm. If this didn't get people to "act" and revolt than nothing will.
Residents In All 50 States File Petitions To Secede From United States

More than 100,000 people who signed an online petition calling on the Obama administration to allow Texas to secede from the United States and create.

I don't believe in Secession in the least bit, however I did think about that event. If you think about it, that right there would have truly been grounds for a protest and or a full on revolt. Had this request for secession been denied in a much earlier time period, like say the 1920s or 30s there would have been serious marching and protesting. If this had of been any place other than America I'm pretty sure we would have at least seen a protest or full on riot as we occasionally see in places like Sweden, Israel, and Turkey.

Face it. America is a yuppy, weak, materialistic country whose inhabitants subconsciously enjoy this silly political system that we currently have in place today.

Sure you could argue that we Americans do protest often. Yeah right. Occupy Wall Street was a partially coordinated superficial gathering that featured topless dingbats and other filth that achieved what again? Funny thing is as it turns out when most people are reaching the quote "breaking" point they start to protest in such a way that you can tell its legit and these people are really angry. They don't have to beg people to join their protest at all. When a whole neighborhood notices that say their trash is not being picked all of those people will go down to their nearest City Hall and protest. OWS was not backed fully by a majority of the American people. It really wasn't backed by a big minority either. If you look at the protests that happen in Turkey and Egypt you will notice that they were heavily backed by a large portion of the population.

This is why I chose that portion of your post to respond to. I understand that a lot can be achieved through social forums such as this, however, considering the apparent zombiefication of most Americans I think the call to action part was a bit unnecessary.

In my humble opinion, we should start to fundamentally change some of our current laws. Perhaps we can look at the Governments of other successful countries. I believe in Sweden or Finland you can get a law passed with so many thousand signatures. In other places, I hear the medical care is completely free. Its funny, growing up as an American you are taught America is the greatest, most freest country EVAH! Sigh. However when you actually look at other places you realize that America is not the best in terms of the quality of life it provides it's citizens. Heck in my mind our whole system could use a complete overhaul.

All i ever read is we need to do this or that, or that is a great idea they should implement it. A lot of writing and then nothing... I guess most Americans are ignorant, lazy, or they just don't care about what is happening. Sorry but all that writing isn't going to change anything.

If you really want change then it has to come from the people and like i said the majority of Americans doesn't seem to care or is ignorant to what their own government is doing. Start educating your neighbor, family, friends, etc... and let it spread by word of mouth. Maybe then they will stand up.

Atm i am in Africa, and yes, it is very corrupt, you can bribe almost anybody (including government) left, right, and center. BUT if the people do not like a new implementation from government or a new law they will stand up and protest on the streets. If they do not get a raise they will put the whole work place on stand still. If they do not like new toll road implementations they will put the highways on stand still. Until some compromise has been made. That seems to be the only way for a government to listen.

And yes, comparing America to Africa might not seem to be correct in your eyes, but the way i see it, the same people are behind the scenes and what you are "actually" seeing on the foreground is just a puppet show.

Just my two cents.

reply to post by Helious



You said a mouth full my friend. I can't disagree with anything you said. The current state of affairs in this country is exactly how you describe it. The citizens who continue to close their eyes to what's happening, won't wake up until they are directly affected. From the stars you've received for this post, it seems a lot of us here are in agreement. (I would give you more than one star if I could).

You hit the nail on the head with this statement...

This madness will not end until we act, it will not end until every American is touched by the greed, the corruption, the fear and the brutality of this government, it will not end until we put a stop to it.

reply to post by Helious


I still get "eye-rolls" 6 or 7 out of every 10. Sadly, we haven't reached the critical mass you need to accomplish this.

As you said above, enough of us must be touched by their greed. Enough people must see the direct impact in their lives but it has been obfuscated. You talk to an average American about the NSA spying and you get, "what do I care? I have nothing to hide". completely oblivious that it is designed to spy on judges and elected officials to blackmail them into voting in policies to take away your freedoms, your buying power and sense of self.

But as you brought up Nazi Germany, surely you must know that everything is cyclic and clearly incapable of learning from our mistakes.

I think Americans are "coming of age". Many of them have lost faith in the system of governance that they were brought up to revere. They see it being subverted and perverted to serve special interests and feel powerless to stop this from happening.

Part of their anxiety comes from a failure to understand and accept that what has happened to America and is happening to them is a natural evolution of the system that they originally put in place. No system can withstand human ingenuity. Human beings will always find a way to make sure that personal interests are prioritized above the interests of the system as a whole.

That tendency will always exist and has to be acknowledged and watched carefully and policed carefully. But who will watch the watchers and who will police the policemen? It's an age old question that has never been answered satisfactorily.

People complain about the dangers of the erosion of the 2nd Amendment right of Americans to bear arms but are for the most part unaware of the almost complete erasure of the 1st Amendment right to free speech as reflected by the virtually complete subversion and control of the mainstream press in America.

President Kennedy is widely regarded as the last real American President. He spoke very cogently about American freedom and American security and the relationship between those things and the office of the President and the institution of the American press. If you listen to his speech you will hear him allude to the same sorts of problems alluded to by the governments of our time. The problems haven't changed but the attitudes of recent Presidents certainly have.

Kennedy was loyal to the American system and prioritized it at the top. He didn't have all the answers to the problems and challenges faced by that system, but he categorically rejected adopting the policies and attitudes of enemy systems as a solution to the challenges posed by those systems.

Finding American solutions to American problems requires a free press and an absolute rejection of the methods and institutions of totalitarianism.

Excellent post Helios.Its posts like this and comments from members such as scottobereal, carreau, oldetimehockey, dukesy , stutteringpoet and several others that keep me returning to this site. After witnessing changes such as the patriot act, military commissions act, the national defense authorization act, the enemy expatriation act and now the "safe act", it is obvious to me that the government does not have our best interests in mind. The agenda here is about control. I don't think voting and peaceful demonstrations will have any effect on this agenda. I don't think we need one good leader. we need thousands of them. Thousands of military minded individuals capable of organizing thousands of cells of angry, armed American citizens ready and capable of creating real change. I think this is what the government is afraid of, and preparing for. That is why homeland security is buying millions of rounds of ammo. That is why the fema camps are staffed and ready to go. These new leaders will have to solve communication problems because the internet will be shut down when tshtf. Witnessing the brutality with which police agencies of all types are allowed to operate it appears that the government is conditioning the american people to accept any and all types of abuse. They are organized and ready to squash any attempt at rebellion. It would require an extraordinary effort by many Patriots to be able to fight back. Do I think this will happen? I doubt it, but you never know...

Well said Helious. You summed up, very articulately, what I have been feeling for some time. Thank you!

Originally posted by iamusic

Originally posted by Helious

This madness will not end until we act, it will not end until every American is touched by the greed, the corruption, the fear and the brutality of this government, it will not end until we put a stop to it.

Hmm. If this didn't get people to "act" and revolt than nothing will.
Residents In All 50 States File Petitions To Secede From United States

More than 100,000 people who signed an online petition calling on the Obama administration to allow Texas to secede from the United States and create.

I don't believe in Secession in the least bit, however I did think about that event. If you think about it, that right there would have truly been grounds for a protest and or a full on revolt. Had this request for secession been denied in a much earlier time period, like say the 1920s or 30s there would have been serious marching and protesting. If this had of been any place other than America I'm pretty sure we would have at least seen a protest or full on riot as we occasionally see in places like Sweden, Israel, and Turkey.

Face it. America is a yuppy, weak, materialistic country whose inhabitants subconsciously enjoy this silly political system that we currently have in place today.

Sure you could argue that we Americans do protest often. Yeah right. Occupy Wall Street was a partially coordinated superficial gathering that featured topless dingbats and other filth that achieved what again? Funny thing is as it turns out when most people are reaching the quote "breaking" point they start to protest in such a way that you can tell its legit and these people are really angry. They don't have to beg people to join their protest at all. When a whole neighborhood notices that say their trash is not being picked all of those people will go down to their nearest City Hall and protest. OWS was not backed fully by a majority of the American people. It really wasn't backed by a big minority either. If you look at the protests that happen in Turkey and Egypt you will notice that they were heavily backed by a large portion of the population.

This is why I chose that portion of your post to respond to. I understand that a lot can be achieved through social forums such as this, however, considering the apparent zombiefication of most Americans I think the call to action part was a bit unnecessary.

In my humble opinion, we should start to fundamentally change some of our current laws. Perhaps we can look at the Governments of other successful countries. I believe in Sweden or Finland you can get a law passed with so many thousand signatures. In other places, I hear the medical care is completely free. Its funny, growing up as an American you are taught America is the greatest, most freest country EVAH! Sigh. However when you actually look at other places you realize that America is not the best in terms of the quality of life it provides it's citizens. Heck in my mind our whole system could use a complete overhaul.

I do believe in secession because we have no standing to change any existing laws. That's the way they set it up when in fact the united states is nothing but a huge conglomerate of very different people sewn together like a patchwork quilt, the only thing binding them together being federal legislative stitches that clash, sometimes violently, with the fabric that is us. The seams bind too tightly and there is no give.

We are not the United States of America and we never were, we are living in the contiguous states of pros and cons. So why go on pretending otherwise?

The difference between special interests groups and freedom loving types is that special interests are bonded by mutual accord which gives them tensile strength, while freedom lovers will happily allow others to live according to their special interests even though they would choose not to be sewn next to them in the quilt. They are given no choice. Being united means there is no escaping the stitches that bind unsightly plaids and stripes together short of ripping out some seams and making a new quilt.

We the people, taken as a whole, have no common interests, we have no shared devotion to specific principles, we have learned to expect nothing from anyone and they seldom disappoint. But most of all, we expect nothing from ourselves except to get from one day to the next while avoiding a personal catastrophe. Its hard to explain why I think that is and the quilt thing is probably a bad analogy, but while we are joined together by outside forces, we are separated by laws and ordinances that prevent us from designing and making our own quilt.

Helios, I did not get the chance to respond yesterday when I first read this post. We have 99.99% of the time, when we've met via thread always agreed and were following suit. How very well articulated your OP is. Reading the pages that followed I can see the smoke that is still bluring some eyes, be they young or old codgers the age has nothing to do with it. The perception's of those and some I would consider "trolls" trying to derail such a wonderfull thread was handle very eloquently by not only you but several other well informed threaders, bravo!

I keep hearing from certain threaders that this type of banter is continuous rhetoric from American's, how many of them are actually American's? How many of them are to young to know the difference between the 50's ~ 90's? Even prior to that.

The world looks at America as a super power yet we are of the youngest countries around. For as much as we want that is of old, we will never return to that point and a new pinnacle of America must be found. As we look at the past and learn from old mistakes we cannot take our eyes off the future and where we are headed before we loose everything that we have already not.

I'm very new to ATS not even a year old, in that time I've surfed through 1000's of thread. Debated old thought processes and discovered new perceptions that expanded not only my mind but my spirit. I've been on the brink of banning, thrown myself at the mercy of the ATS courts and returned rejuvenated and refreshed. It's not until your head is on the block that the most dire of actions are taken. It's only when that which is most precious is vindicated and threatened that action will be taken.

I hear in the echoed hallway of ATS that America is past the brink, that the light is dark and no hope remains. This has never been farther from the truth. Bleek, scary, and frightening but not impossible. The fat lady didn't even begin to sing. The flame of hope burns on in each and every one of us, even those that state America is hopeless, I remain hopeful, I remain diligent, I keep myself informed so that I can pass my knowledge forward to those that are not so that I can re-light the flames of passion and hope so that when the time comes I will have done my diligence to awaken as many others as myself as possible. To give America a fighting chance.

America is not over by a long shot and as American's deal with our issues the other countries should focus on there problems. When the time comes American's will do what needs to be done. We've only just begun.

Keep the light's on and stay vigilant in a time where hope is gone and the darkness surrond.

Great thread~ I know I jabbered... I hope I didn't look to much of a asshat

People say we need an untouchable leader, not possible just be killed. What we need is a movement, you can kill a leader but not a movement.

In order to force government change, we would need anonymous groups willing to organize into cells across the states, ALL following the same movement. That is the only way change can come. More and more cells will form over time ,until the movement is so big the government will have no other choice.

Originally posted by Carreau
Someone has to be first in the stack, first through the door. Until that person leads the charge nothing will happen. So far no one has.

We are going to have to do what the progressives did to the democrat party. Join and then take it over. Join the Tea Party or something.

Something to think about......over the last2 or three decades persona like Dianne Feinstein have been getting letters for folks concerned about her position on the 2nd amendment. Be sure that not all these letters were friendly but certainly many presented their concerns in a non-confrontational manner.

Anyway it has not softened her radical and ignorant approach. She still thinks she is talking to a bunch of constitutional fanatic and STILL has so little respect and consideration for them that she doesn't even bother to try to do her homework and present her position beyond what one would to placate a nattering 4 year old. Even when she is shown to be ignorant and unlearned she takes into consideration the "source" and just blows it off.

Nor does she seem to ever consider that here voter base may not be in touch with the rest of the nation. Oh but she's from a certain part of California that is elite and consider the rest of the nation ignorant and backward on this issue.

Anyway my point is that the senate and other representative and elected officials are cult figures and cant be reached but must be swept out of office. They don't represent and don't know how to represent. We elect rulers and dictators that stand up in public before the whole nation on national media and say "we can read the bill later".....demonstration a totally dangerous level of contempt demonstrable of criminals that get into power to sack the rights and treasury of the people.