I'm not religious, but I found this pretty interesting

Originally posted by kimish
reply to post by scojak

 

I'm saying to read the other threads on the matter.

Ya, no kidding. I've said multiple times that I haven't been able to find one. Then I asked if you could post one for me so I would be on the same page as you regarding what has already been discussed on ATS. But it seems you would rather not help me, and talk about how you won't help me, then to just take a second to help me....

The OP is not representative of the video. Rather, he/she is posting for others to watch, contemplate, and draw their own conclusions.

If this doesn't resonate with you, move on and find other ways to feed your egos. How safe you are in front of your screen.

Sheesh...there are so many know it alls on this board. It's sickening, really. You do not contribute to the greater good of this board with your faux knowledge.

Bless your hearts

Lets see 7 vials , 7 bowls , 7 seals . 7 times 70 , 7 days in the week and the number 7 symbolizes completion .

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


Thanks for the post. I can't speak or read Greek and am curious if you can. I counted the words from the link you provided and got about 413. I say 'about' because I cannot read Greek and really cannot say if my count was anywhere near accurate. Basically I counted the number character groupings that were separated by a space. I counted the ones that seemed to be hyphenated (separated by a dot instead of a space) as one and omitted the ones in brackets as I figured they were probably words added for clarification as one would do in English. Anyway, I'm wondering if you can explain why our counts differ by over fifty words. Like I said, I don't speak or read Greek so maybe there is something I'm missing. BTW 413 is divisible by 7

reply to post by capod2t


Thanks for the backup. It does get a bit annoying when people prefer to tell you that you are wrong as opposed to showing you why you are wrong. You know, give a man a fish/teach him how to fish sort of thing. The latter allows for a much healthier experience for everyone.

reply to post by scojak


I do not speak Greek no, I can write it a little bit, some things taught by Greek friends here and there, but no, no classical training in the language itself. As for the differing word-counts: my word-counts come from the external quotes I posted. The link provides a copy of all of Matthew 1, but the video says that the original 7s were applied only to Matthew 1: 1-11, so those are the verses which I counted.

To count them, I copy-pasted the text into a Microsoft Word document, removed superscripts and bracketed words, then used the Microsoft Word feature that counts how many words and characters (either including or excluding spaces) are in a document, and used that as my final total.

Although, I must make a retraction on the total word-count for the Greek variation. It is actually 162 words long, not the 352 I originally stated. The 352 came, by accident, from the first English version's 190 words, and the Greek's 162 being added together by Microsoft Word.

None-the-less, here are the accurate numbers for Matthew 1: 1-11, which the video says is divisible by 7:

Greek translation: 162 words / 7 = 23.1428571
English translation: 190 words / 7 = 27.1428571

Sorry for the slight confusion on the Greek!


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by kimish


I don't believe that any superior intelligence had anything to do with any part of the Bible. So, if that was the point you were trying to make, sure, I support it.

But bludgeoning another user verbally for presenting a topic on ATS that has already been covered isn't necessarily any better than rehashing the old topic.

How many threads are there on ATS related to Indigo Children, Black-Eyed Kids, orbs in photographs, incorrect applications of the term "neologism", and "OMG guys, totally Biblical prophecy!" already?

The best way to deal with such clutter is to demonstrate where they are wrong (like I did), or to link to existing conversations covering the subject matter.

ATS has heaps and heaps of threads, and the search engine does not always find all of them, I know, because a user once contacted me about some information I posted in a thread, I tried to search out the thread with the exact quote she sent me, and neither the old, nor new search engine found the thread. When I asked the user, she linked me right to it.

So, if you know of another thread that covers a topic, link right to it, and save everyone the fuss.


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by kimish

There's a lot of interesting coincidences in the Bible

The laws of probability have PROVEN that the Bible is anything BUT a coincidence.

Anyone that examines both history and the prophecies of the Bible with a critical and unbiased eye will come to this conclusion.

Most folks make up their minds about the book's validity based on popular misconceptions about it's claims and contents, rather than any kind of profound comprehension of them.

Unfortunately, many of these misconceptions are perpetuated by churches and Christians.

The Bible is proven as the word of God by the fulfillment of Bible prophesies. It is mathematically impossible for all of these prophesies to have just happened by chance. This proves that the people that wrote the Bible were inspired by God, for only God could accurately foretell the future, in detail 100% of the time, and at the same time encourage mankind to obey Him.

Source

The chances of just 48 out of the 456 prophecies being fulfilled in one person are 1 in 10 to the 157 power. "All this illustrates why it is absolutely impossible for anyone to have fulfilled the Messianic prophecies by chance. In fact, a leading authority on the probability theory, Emile Borel states that once we go past one chance in 10 to the 50th power, the probabilities are so small it's impossible to think they will ever occur." LINK

"Perhaps the most compelling of evidences demonstrating that the Bible is the word of God is its unswerving ability to accurately predict future events, often in minute details. Specific prophesies are conspicuously absent from the 26 other religious books that claim to be scripture, including the Muslim's Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Hindu Vedas, and Buddhist writings. This in itself should be a major eye-opener to the honest skeptic. "

Accuracy Of Prophecy

reply to post by kimish


The Bible has indeed been translated into many languages. This is referring to the original text, of which there are more text's from original format for the Bible than any other piece of literature in existence. This is how we know it has not changed or been altered. A good example of this are the dead sea scrolls found in 1947. Biblical scholars became nervous upon the discovery of these particular texts as they contained some of the oldest examples of scripture ever found. Upon translation they were found to be totally accurate compared to the more 'modern' examples. The argument that the Bible has changed over the years is just not true. We have far too many old texts to show this is not the case and never was as it would be too obvious. Which is why nobody is able to give us an example. (which would also be easy to do if it has happened as it would be easy to compare to the older texts and see where the changes were made, and by whom)

Meanings do get lost in translation and that is unavoidable but the original format and languages are recorded so many times it cannot be changed by anyone without being noticed.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


Thanks for humoring me in my ignorance of the Greek language, but I am still confused. Perhaps you could humor me further by explaining how you got an even smaller number now for the word count. I took the same approach you did with MS Word, but for some obviously wrong reason it told me there were only eight words. Knowing this was clearly not the case, I then proceeded to count by hand and got 413. The text I counted was the full text from the link you provided for the Greek translation:

1Βίβλος γενέσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ υἱοῦ Δαυὶδ υἱοῦ Ἀβρααμ.
2Ἀβραὰμ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰσαάκ, Ισαὰκ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰακώβ, Ἰακὼβ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰούδαν καὶ τοὺς άδελφοὺς αὐτοῦ, 3Ἰούδας δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Φαρὲς καὶ τὸν Ζαρὰ ἐκ τῆς Θάμαρ, Φαρὲς δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἐσρώμ Ἐσρὼμ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἀράμ 4Ἀρὰμ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἀμιναδάβ Ἀμιναδὰβ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ναασσών, Ναασσὼν δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Σαλμών, 5Σαλμὼν δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Βοὲς ἐκ τῆς, Ραχαβ Βοὲς δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωβὴδ ἐκ τῆς Ρούθ Ἰωβὴδ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰεσσαὶ, 6Ἰεσσαὶ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Δαυὶδ τὸν βασιλέα.

Δαυὶδ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Σολομῶνα ἐκ τῆς τοῦ Οὐρίου, 7Σολομὼν δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ροβοάμ Ροβοαμ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἀβιά Ἀβιὰ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἀσάφ, 8Ἀσὰφ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωσαφάτ Ἰωσαφὰτ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωράμ Ἰωρὰμ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ὀζίαν, 9Ὀζίας δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωαθάμ Ἰωαθὰμ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἄχας Ἄχας δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἐζεκίαν, 10Ἐζεκίας δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Μανασσῆ Μανασσῆς δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἀμώς Ἀμὼς δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωσίαν, 11Ἰωσίας δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰεχονίαν καὶ τοὺς ἀδελφοὺς αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τῆς μετοικεσίας βαβυλῶνος.

12Μετὰ δὲ τὴν μετοικεσίαν βαβυλῶνος Ἰεχονίας ἐγέννησεν τὸν Σαλαθιήλ Σαλαθιὴλ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ζοροβάβελͺ. 13Ζοροβάβελ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἀβιούδ, Ἀβιοὺδ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἐλιακίμ, Ἐλιακὶμ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἀζώρ, 14Ἀζὼρ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Σαδώκ, Σαδὼκ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἀχίμ Ἀχὶμ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἐλιούδ, 15Ἐλιοὺδ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἐλεάζαρ Ἐλεάζαρ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ματθάν Ματθὰν δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰακώβ, 16Ἰακὼβ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωσὴφ τὸν ἄνδρα Μαρίας ἐξ ἧς ἐγέννηθη Ἰησοῦς ὁ λεγόμενος χριστός.

17Πᾶσαι οὖν αἱ γενεαὶ ἀπὸ Ἀβραὰμ ἕως Δαυὶδ γενεαὶ δεκατέσσαρες καὶ ἀπὸ Δαυὶδ ἕως τῆς μετοικεσίας βαβυλῶνος γενεαὶ δεκατέσσαρες καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς μετοικεσίας βαβυλῶνος ἕως τοῦ Χριστοῦ γενεαὶ δεκατέσσαρες.

18τοῦ δὲ [Ἰησοῦ] Χριστοῦ ἡ γένεσις οὕτως ἦν μνηστευθείσης τῆς μητρὸς αὐτοῦ Μαρίας τῷ Ἰωσήφ πρὶν ἢ συνελθεῖν αὐτοὺς εὑρέθη ἐν γαστρὶ ἔχουσα ἐκ πνεύματος ἁγίου. 19Ἰωσὴφ δὲ ὁ ἀνὴρ αὐτῆς δίκαιος ὢν καὶ μὴ θέλων αὐτὴν δειγματίσαι ἐβουλήθη λάθρᾳ ἀπολῦσαι αὐτήν. 20ταῦτα δὲ αὐτοῦ ἐνθυμηθέντος ἰδοὺ ἄγγελος κυρίου κατ’ ὄναρ ἐφάνη αὐτῷ λέγων· Ἰωσὴφ υἱὸς Δαυὶδ, μὴ φοβηθῇς παραλαβεῖν Μαρίαν τὴν γυναῖκα σου· τὸ γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν ἐκ πνεύματος ἐστιν ἁγίου. 21τέξεται δὲ υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν· αὐτὸς γὰρ σώσει τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν αὐτῶν. 22τοῦτο δὲ ὅλον γέγονεν ἵνα πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν ὑπὸ κυρίου διὰ τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος·

23ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἔξει καὶ τέξεται υἱὸν,
καὶ καλέσουσιν τὸ ὅνομα αὐτοῦ Ἐμμανουηλ,

ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον μεθ’ ἡμῶν ὁ θεός. 24ἐγερθεὶς δὲ [ὁ] Ἰωσὴφ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὕπνου ἐποίησεν ὡς προσέταξεν αὐτῷ ὁ ἄγγελος κυρίου καὶ παρέλαβεν τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, 25καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν ἕως [οὗ] ἔτεκεν υἱόν· καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν.

Was it wrong to count the entire text? It is undoubtedly quite a bit more than the 162 words that you now say it is. Though, it does just say 'Matthew 1' in the title, so perhaps 1-11 is merely a portion of this text? I have no real knowledge of the organizational intricacies of the Bible and I would appreciate any clarification if you could provide. Thanks Wandering Scribe!

ETA: I see you actually address some of this in your post. Perhaps you could tell me exactly where 1-11 begins and ends.

reply to post by scojak


Not a problem. The first 11 verses of Matthew (Matthew 1: 1-11) are these right here:

1Βίβλος γενέσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ υἱοῦ Δαυὶδ υἱοῦ Ἀβρααμ.
2Ἀβραὰμ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰσαάκ, Ισαὰκ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰακώβ, Ἰακὼβ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰούδαν καὶ τοὺς άδελφοὺς αὐτοῦ, 3Ἰούδας δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Φαρὲς καὶ τὸν Ζαρὰ ἐκ τῆς Θάμαρ, Φαρὲς δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἐσρώμ Ἐσρὼμ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἀράμ 4Ἀρὰμ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἀμιναδάβ Ἀμιναδὰβ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ναασσών, Ναασσὼν δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Σαλμών, 5Σαλμὼν δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Βοὲς ἐκ τῆς, Ραχαβ Βοὲς δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωβὴδ ἐκ τῆς Ρούθ Ἰωβὴδ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰεσσαὶ, 6Ἰεσσαὶ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Δαυὶδ τὸν βασιλέα.

Δαυὶδ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Σολομῶνα ἐκ τῆς τοῦ Οὐρίου, 7Σολομὼν δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ροβοάμ Ροβοαμ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἀβιά Ἀβιὰ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἀσάφ, 8Ἀσὰφ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωσαφάτ Ἰωσαφὰτ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωράμ Ἰωρὰμ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ὀζίαν, 9Ὀζίας δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωαθάμ Ἰωαθὰμ δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἄχας Ἄχας δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἐζεκίαν, 10Ἐζεκίας δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Μανασσῆ Μανασσῆς δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἀμώς Ἀμὼς δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰωσίαν, 11Ἰωσίας δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰεχονίαν καὶ τοὺς ἀδελφοὺς αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τῆς μετοικεσίας βαβυλῶνος.

The very last line begins with:

11Ἰωσίας δὲ ἐγέννησεν τὸν Ἰεχονίαν καὶ τοὺς ἀδελφοὺς αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τῆς μετοικεσίας βαβυλῶνος.

The "11" at the start there let's you know that you've reached verse 11. The very next line:

12Μετὰ δὲ τὴν μετοικεσίαν βαβυλῶνος Ἰεχονίας ἐγέννησεν τὸν Σαλαθιήλ Σαλαθιὴλ δὲ ἐγέννησεν

Begins with a "12", letting you know that you've moved on to verse 12. In the video, the speaker says, when he is giving the audience their assignment, that all of those rules (words divisible by 7; letters divisible by 7; vowels divisible by 7, and so on) need to apply to the genealogy of Jesus Christ, as given in Matthew 1: 1-11, which means Matthew, Chapter 1, verses 1 through 11.

Neither the New International version, nor the original Greek translation match. The actual amount of times that the number of words can be divided by 7 is not a whole number: instead you are left with 23.1428571 (for the Greek) and 27.1428571 (for the English).


~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by greavsie1971

This is referring to the original text, of which there are more text's from original format for the Bible than any other piece of literature in existence.

If you wouldn't mind, and have about 6 minutes of free time, I'd be interested to see how you would respond to the following video, which attempts to refute the claim that you've just made.




~ Wandering Scribe

I remember when the "Bible Code" was a popular topic on here several years ago.

People were convinced god had written hidden messages and prophecies in the bible that could be deciphered using a computer program.

It was also discovered that Moby Dick had the very same prophetic messages when it was deciphered in the same manner and with the same software as the Bible code was.

Personally, I don't believe god is an author, or that he has his own printing press.

Too bad he did'nt sign his name on the books he "wrote".

Plus, what about the other 30 or so gospels that were left out of the Bible because the church did not like their message? Do they have the same numbers? Why are they less relevant because men decided they were Gods word?

Originally posted by kimish
The bible has been translated into many languages. Some words were lost in translation, making the "7" theory totally bogus.

Every religious text has also been rewritten within cultures numerous times too, by those in power wishing to highlight specific things and eradicate others. There is no original religious text left in existence.

This also makes this entire theory complete bunkum.

Originally posted by Rocker2013

Originally posted by kimish
The bible has been translated into many languages. Some words were lost in translation, making the "7" theory totally bogus.

Every religious text has also been rewritten within cultures numerous times too, by those in power wishing to highlight specific things and eradicate others. There is no original religious text left in existence.

This also makes this entire theory complete bunkum.

Danke

reply to post by scojak


Seems to be along the lines of THEOMATICS. You might be interested in checking that out. It goes far beyond just 7's into some pretty intricate calculations.

There is an official book on the subject and possibly some websites.

It's pretty fascinating but, of course, not without its critics.

If God believes in freewill then he completely doesn't understand the term, since only a few humans on earth impede the freewill of Billions of others.

I was baptized, twice, when I was a young kid, and again when I was 17 in an effort to become closer with a girl I tried understanding things again, and well at the end of my understanding I left the girl and the Christian religion.

Mainly from what I read and was told and then what I saw all around me.

My quams about this is, 1st Off, Animals don't goto heaven, now I'm not head fanboy of PETA but I do believe all animals and for all argument sakes all living things have feelings / emotional sensory inputs/outputs, to be alive you need to have most of the things we determine to be alive but you need to react to your enviroment and you cannot properly do so being a living creature and not feel things.

Well what happened to the creation of heaven? Someone was like well we only want humans here, anything else needs to go somewhere else, sorry. Is this heaven or hell, from that twilight episode where the devil tried to lure a old man into what he called heaven but the old man didn't go due to his dog not being able to go, so he waited and eventually god came by and took him and his dog to heaven. That's what I would imagine a true heaven to be like.

My second issue, is if God made heaven, he certainly meant for this to be hell, since for the most part All I see profiting are the morally shallow and evil minded people, survival of the meanest and most exploitative.

Sorry to burst some bubbles, but we are all alone here, and the only way we're gonna ever get out of this mess on top is to realize the fact we are alone in all this, and to start working together to stand up against this substandard way of living.

I was not born to be a Worker Slave.

My main qualm with religions is that they seem to me to be (among other things involving power and politics) man's effort to "figure out God" (or Spirit, or Oneness Consciousness, or All That Is, or however you prefer to refer to the Supreme Deity) like an equation.

A religion is lost as soon as it loses its simplicity: truth has no mysteries: it is deceit alone that lurks in obscurity

- The Veil of Isis (or Mysteries of the Druids)

I dig the mysteries and often seek to learn about them.

Anyhoo, the number 7, in mystic symbolism, precedes the New Testament and even the Bible itself. Seven chakra for instance. Dating back to Isis, there are 7 points on the crown of the Statue of Liberty, oft thought to be symbolic of Isis, a supposition that the founding fathers of the US were deists who followed the old mysteries rather than strict Christianity (despite many of them seated in the pews each Sunday).

reply to post by Tranceopticalinclined

If God believes in freewill then he completely doesn't understand the term, since only a few humans on earth impede the freewill of Billions of others.

Here's my response to that:

The Bible has made it clear that "God" is all-powerful in every sense of the phrase. This is accepted in churches all around the globe. He is omniscient and omnipotent, they say. He has no equal. Let's break it down for the members of ATS. In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:

1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.

2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.

At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.

In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.

I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.

That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

According to the above system of logical deduction, which operates under the assumption that the Bible is fully accurate, "God" is the only entity since the very beginning who has ever possessed true free will. All else is determined by his choices, every second in every single space of existence throughout the universe. We are the puppets in the stories he writes. And if we don't play our roles as he wills it, then we are condemned. Because that makes us broken puppets. And his palace has no room for broken puppets. He has already said this.

I don't know what you've been reading or listening to, but if the Bible had lead you to believe that you have free will, then you have not read it well enough. Critical thinking is a very useful tool when it comes to the small print. And there is a lot of "small print" in the Bible.

People choose how far they follow the trail of deduction, how much truth they let in, until they decide they've had enough and the rest "doesn't matter" or "isn't explicitly stated". But you'd be amazed by how many possibilities are eliminated the further you follow that trail. The above is a result of following it a pretty fair distance. I didn't go all the way to the end, because it's a pretty grim place once you go far enough. But I've showed you the trail and how I followed it, so maybe you have more stones than I do and will follow it to the very end of human comprehension.

Good luck and you're welcome.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


Bravo, you have just ended this thread.
Now, why the OP didn't think of doing this type of research is beyond me. But to watch a video on youtube and believe what is being said without looking into it further, on your own, before querying the local crazy forum, is crazy.