What if Jesus is the DECEPTION?

Stupid dyslexia, I read "What if Jesus is the decepticon." lol

reply to post by Logarock


Obviously, since Paul's teachings were incorporated into established doctrine by the various Councils of Nicea and Constantinople, it can NOT be argued that those teachings run contrary to established doctrine. It would be folly to attempt to convince anyone otherwise as my opinion of Paul's deceptions are already established dogma, and thus immune to argument. As a matter of personal opinion, I stated my position that the term Apostate applies to Paul rather than Apostle - there is no compulsion on my part to convince anyone otherwise, this is merely an opinion.

On the matter of Paul's teachings versus the words and deeds of Jesus, that subject is far afield of the OP's questioning the possibility of Jesus being a deception and would be better discussed in another post.

ganjoa

The idea of Jesus as God and the concept of the Holy Trinity was something invented quite late on by one of the Christian splinter groups fighting for supremecy, they went on to become the Roman Catholic church, and in a sense 'won' that battle with their baffling notion of the divinity of Jesus.

Other competing sects of Christianity at the time held the slightly more sane view that Jesus was a jolly good chap who was the son of God, but not actually God himself. And that this business of the Father Son And Holy Spirit had no basis in truth, and frankly all that eating of flesh and drinking of blood business was in pretty bad taste.

The Roman Catholic church did a fairly good job of executing these heretics. As well as announcing quite proudly that because the concept of Jesus as Divine and the embodiment of the father/son/holy spirit made absolutely zero logical sense, it must therefore be true, because it requires divine intervention to work.

Or in other words, check your sanity at the door before buying into this faith and abandon all hope of sensible logical thought.

reply to post by SalientSkivvy


Your concept really transforms the question into one that's "more than meets the eye"!
I've got the same type of condition relative to the spoken word - "auditory dyslexia" especially when it comes to song lyrics.

ganjoa

reply to post by Painterz


Methinks your final comment applies liberally and equally about "buying into" all other established faiths as well.
Okay, at least the established Abrahamic based faiths.

ganjoa

Originally posted by Jusvistn
I honestly do not want to start a holy war or all out religious cyber fight, but am looking for real input.

I believe in GOD, I believe that there is an intelligent design to our planet, our environment and our species, but I truly struggle with the concept of Jesus as GOD.

I'm not saying that Jesus never existed, and I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't a great inspiration bringing GODS will and knowledge to us, but I find it difficult to worship a man when GOD says you "will put no other GODS before me." Essentially, is that not what folks are doing when they are praying and worshiping Jesus INSTEAD of God?

And though Jesus teaches these things, and then tells us to worship him..... what if he is the true deception in the grand scheme of things?

To me, Jesus is separate from God, and I have a hard time calling them one in the same, and I have difficulty with the God made flesh aspect that brings us to the whole Son, Spirit, Holy Ghost thing..... For me, to believe in the "one true God" means that Jesus would be no more than a teacher as what you would find preaching from the front of the church today. So I ask again, could Jesus be the Deception, and in his "teachings" be pulling the people away from God and into his own agenda?

I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around this. I appreciate your civil insights.

caesarsmessiah.com...

the roman conspiracy to invent jesus.

all roads still lead to rome.

Originally posted by Jusvistn

To me, Jesus is separate from God, and I have a hard time calling them one in the same,

Here's where you're wrong bro. No one is separate from God. The kingdom of heaven lies within, as they say. Jesus came here basically saying "I am the son of God, and so are you, and you and you..." but there are certain people who don't want you to know this, so they put Jesus on a pedestal and altered the message: "Jesus is the ONLY Son of God, and anyone who says that they are the son of God is a false prophet and shall be put to death!"

and I have difficulty with the God made flesh aspect that brings us to the whole Son, Spirit, Holy Ghost thing..... For me, to believe in the "one true God" means that Jesus would be no more than a teacher as what you would find preaching from the front of the church today. So I ask again, could Jesus be the Deception, and in his "teachings" be pulling the people away from God and into his own agenda?

The worship of Jesus as the true God is deceptive, however his teachings are not.

Jesus IS God. The man, Jesus, was God in human form

reply to post by Jusvistn


-The Word Truth is Aleph Mem Tav. Aleph is the beginning and Tav is the end (Two Crossed Sticks). In the middle, Mem is the water (Baptism). We are immersed by the Son into the waters of life. Christ is the beginning and End. We are in the middle. Aleph is God.

-What word do we get when we take God out of Truth? Mem Tav is the word Death.

-What is the word for Son? Here is the description from the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of Jeff Benner.

“The first letter is the (bet - B), a picture of a tent or house. The second letter, (nun - N) is the picture of a seed. The seed is a new generation of life that will grow and produce a new generation therefore, this letter can mean "to continue." When combined these two letters form the word BeN meaning "to continue the house" and is the Hebrew word for a "son."”

Compare this to the relationship of the Son to the Father below:

1 Corinthians 15:

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Christ is the one saving us from the water. Christians are fishers of men. What are the fish?

In Greek and Latin, we have these words:

Amn - Lamb
Amni - River of Life (Waters)
Amnio - Bowl catching the blood of the sacrificed Lamb
Amnion - Sac covering the womb
Amniotic Fluid - Waters of the womb
Amnesia - Condition of the water
Amnesty - Salvation and forgiveness from the experience

How do you die rather than live? You take God out of TRUTH. The Son is the process of involution and evolution.

Involution and Evolution

It is easy to make the mistake between the True Savior and the Counterfeit Lucifer. One is the true light woven into the language itself. The other is the copy. How do we know the difference? One takes and the other gives. Giving is the will of God.

reply to post by cass1dy09


To date, no respectable and credible scientist has ever offered a concrete case proving conclusively the existence of your god. That's my argument. If it exists, they would have at least conceded the probability. Something exists. Many scientists have expressed their findings in that regard. What is it? No one knows.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

It is easy to make the mistake between the True Savior and the Counterfeit Lucifer. One is the true light woven into the language itself. The other is the copy. How do we know the difference? One takes and the other gives. Giving is the will of God.

And yet only one is asking for our souls on pain of eternal damnation. I'm still confused as to why Lucifer hasn't been allowed to tell his story...

reply to post by Jusvistn

to BO XIAN
I have stilled my heart and mind and this the question I always come back to.... Do I really have to Believe in Jesus above all others, or is there truth in the other Faiths that I can take from? IMO I feel that each one holds a portion of the truth and the true path. But if I do this, then am I damned? IMO I feel that God cares less about HOW you find your path to Him, only that you DO.

Before you look into the links provided by BO X,

Please do your own independent research on Lee Strobel's background, criticisms of his writings, etc. Do some background checking on him. A simple google "lee strobel refuted" or "lee strobel reviews" will take you to some places that indicate he's NOT all that he's been cracked up to be (by BO X and many others). He's primarily a mega-church salesman.

There are also youtube vids you can watch with him speaking (erm...promoting his book) to 'congregations.'
Make up your own mind whether he's to be used as a valid resource or not.

Good luck on your journey. Keep thinking, asking questions, and cross-referencing EVERYTHING.

In my opinion, yes, there are bits of real "Truth" in EVERY world religion - and LOTS of fluff and nonsense in MANY of them. Start with Zoroastrianism for some back-story of how ALL of the Abrahamic religions came to be. Really dig in to WHERE their stories REALLY originated and a lot of what's going on now will start to make sense to you. Also look into the Eastern religions that predate Zoroastrianism.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

It is easy to make the mistake between the True Savior and the Counterfeit Lucifer. One is the true light woven into the language itself. The other is the copy. How do we know the difference? One takes and the other gives. Giving is the will of God.

And yet only one is asking for our souls on pain of eternal damnation. I'm still confused as to why Lucifer hasn't been allowed to tell his story...

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.”

The Son of God is being raised in the wilderness of this Image of Creation. Is Creation here an Image (Genesis 1:27)? The Son is the Shepherd that created all of Humanity in the material image. Genesis 1 is Elohim Creating. Genesis 2 (2nd Creation) is Lord. The Lord is the Son being raised.

Luke 3

7 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,

the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,

the son of Kenan, 38 the son of Enosh,

the son of Seth, the son of Adam,

the son of God.

Who created Adam? Now go back to Job 19 where the subject is the Redeemer. " “If you say, ‘How we will hound him, since the root of the trouble lies in him,’ 29 you should fear the sword yourselves; for wrath will bring punishment by the sword, and then you will know that there is judgment.”

Are we one loaf of bread?

1 Corinthians 10

17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

What is on either side of a loaf of bread? The Heel.

1 Corinthians 15

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

Who crushes the head of Satan?

Genesis 3

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

Cursed is the seed of the Serpent. In the End, the Seed of Adam becomes the Redeemer. He is both sides. Are you both evil and good? Do you move from being fallen to rising to new life? The Son is being raised and by Him, you too are raised beyond the error.

Who is Lucifer? Two becoming one. We are all here to remove the counterfeit for the true. Adam is the heel. We are all on either side.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

Jesus IS God. The man, Jesus, was God in human form

Well, gee, it's not like maybe you could have provided sources for that or anything...let's just take your word for it. Yeah, that sounds fun!

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Kody27



Christians like to think that they are monotheistic, when in reality they are very much polytheistic. They're basically doing the same thing that the ancient Greeks did, and assign different gods to different aspects of nature. Satan is the god of the underworld and evil, Jesus is the god of love apparently, and also God in general who made everything, including Satan (?), Gabriel is the god of death, etc...

There is a good deal of dozy headed nonsense that goes on in the church. Just a great deal of poorly explained ideas and concepts.

As far as polytheism there should be no misunderstanding here from anyone that has studied the issues whether they believe it or not. Jesus was given all authority, buy His father, after His resurrection over all things below the earth, on the earth and above the earth. All realms. Even in the unseen realm He demonstrated total authority. That's the proper teaching there whatever one may believe. There should be no misunderstanding.

....Yeeeah except that everything you just said causes way more misunderstandings.

How could Jesus have been given authority, "by his father" ? I thought Jesus was his own father? I thought that Christians believed that Jesus and God were as one? That there was no separation?

So the act of God giving Jesus "total authority" over "all realms" (very vague) means that Jesus had authority over God, given to him from God, who is also himself?

Nothing you say could ever possibly make sense out of Christianity.

Yea its all in there. The idea that Jesus and God Almighty are the same person is not supported by scripture. And yes there are those that are confused and perpetuate the confusion.....why that is may be another issue.....however scripture is clear that Jesus and the Almighty are not the same person but are father and son of the same nature.

As far as being one they are one in nature as far as a father and son go. Scripture is clear here as well.....why the confusion? Dumb azzes that don't know how to read and spew confusion because they cant wrap their brain around what they make hard for themselves anyway.

Now as far as Jesus having authority over God.....scripture is clear here.....God Almighty granted Jesus this position and that Jesus will give it back in the future. That's how much trust they have between themselves. It is part of Jesus showing that flesh can obtain without corruption. This grace is then extended to man in kind and reality through Jesus. This was part of the salvation of man process. Mans standing was very high before the fall, higher than the arch angles. When God took a form it was the from of man made in His image. Man was restored this way however the full measure of it will not be shown until the future but for now we have Jesus in His glorified human form to mediate for man.

reply to post by Logarock

Now as far as Jesus having authority over God.....scripture is clear here.....God Almighty granted Jesus this position and that Jesus will give it back in the future.

I don't think that's correct. You could, of course, provide scripture for this claim.

Originally posted by Jusvistn
to NihilistSanta
I apologize if my question seemed vague and disjointed. I was not trying to say that I don't believe in the teachings of the Bible, or Jesus, and again, I stress that where I believe the deception may lie is in the interpretation of the way PEOPLE worship Jesus over God. What does bother me about the bible though, is that it is taught that Jesus, the bible and Christianity is the ONLY real and true faith and all others are wrong. And why do most no longer read or preach or teach from the Old Testament? Would that not be part of the larger blueprint you speak of? The NEW Testament is most often taught and read and read from, and for the shear number of New Testaments out there on the shelf, how often do you see copies of the Old Testament where you can just pick it off the shelf?

You said: quote "A lot of Kabbalah is metaphysical conjecture. It is similar to what you are doing now. It begins by dissecting a passage and removing its meaning and extrapolating your own whether the source justifies it or not."

This may be true, or your interpretation of the Kabbalah, but one could say the near same thing about the Bible. And in the end, they do basically teach the same things:

Humility, Honesty, Compassion, Love, Respect, etc...... yet it also gives you tools to help actually accomplish this, where the Bible only "tells you" to. IMO

Ok well to answer some of your questions for one the reason Christianity teaches that there is only one way to salvation is because truth is absolute, you cant have God be truth and still play around with contradictory ideas and practices. A lot of people try to claim that all religions "teach pretty much the same thing" or "many roads lead to God" I know this because I once belonged to a syncretic religion called the Baha'i faith but upon closer examination there were just too many contradictions and inconsistencies for them to all have come from the same God. For instance reincarnation, polytheism, apotheosis,dualism, etc none of those ideas can be seen to be consistent with Christ views.

The Old testament is not forgotten in favor of the new, they compliment each other. The old testament is all about Jesus (the messiah) coming so I don't understand how you would think one has supplanted the other? Christ said that he "did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it" in Matthew. Jesus gives teaching to help you live the law in your heart so I don't understand really where the bible just "tells you to" when it is giving you the blueprint for personal transformation and acceptance of God. I don't know what churches you have been to but most churches do not exclude the old testament from their teachings.

In regards to Kabbalah and conjecture this is kind of one of the reasons of Christ coming on earth, the Jews were creating wacky laws and extra biblical rules which had nothing to do with your salvation. They became corrupted this way. From what I understand a person is not to even study Kabbalah unless they are heavily educated in the Torah and are over 40 years of age. This is probably to discourage some of this conjecture and partially to protect the practitioner but the entire philosophy evolved from the Babylonian captivity( some early syncretism) so I don't see much merit to it. It revolves around philosophical musings on the divine characteristics and nature of god reveled through creation. This somehow has lead to dualism being introduced which is not what was taught in the bible. Again there are no magical words or verses you can recite to gain knowledge of God, you cant cast a spell to save your soul, and when you enter into these conjectures you lose your grounding and can eventually rationalize anything. This is a brief explanation there is much more to consider but I am short on time.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


The middle is where the beginning and end meet. If we are the middle then we are both beginning and end, the Alpha and Omega because the middle is where they both meet.

Gospel of Thomas
18 The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

There is no end if the beginning is the end and vice versa, which must mean that out spirit is eternal.

Originally posted by Logarock
Great reduction of Jesus even against the testimony of those that knew Him.

He was not a critic like some guy running a column in the local paper.

I think you're taking the term 'critic' (and the point I was making) out of context.

I'm European, so maybe the words aren't expressive enough, but the point was that Jesus could create a movement even whilst trying to reform Judaism and was a critic of current Judaic practices / state of affairs. I wasn't addressing the impact of Jesus.

I hope that clears this up for you.

Regarding my opinion or awe of Jesus:

He came into the temple with much fan fair having just raised a man from the dead.

I suppose this is where I differ and do consider there to be some deception in the Jesus story. .

John the Baptist's followers claim John the Baptist survived. Clearly he did not, and was likely executed.

Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews and Jewish Wars (these texts can have multiple names) highlight several prophets such as Theudas who tried to divide rivers, bring down walls, and recover holy artifacts buried by Moses. We don't remember these prophets because no one wrote down what they said. The existence of multiple of these prophets though suggests that Jesus was of a similar variety.

In this context, Jesus is no different from Theudas or John the Baptist save that we are prepared to accept the miracles of Jesus but perhaps dismiss the divinity of Theudas or John; this is despite the fact that the Jewish people often had a tradition of prophecy and miracles.

I do think there is a deception and grave error in investigating persons such as Jesus. We interpret Jesus as a subject of modern theology and rarely look at what he was actually saying in the context of his people, his life, and his language.

I was brought up as a Roman Catholic, and I suspect this lack of focus on true studying of the bible and its sources is very deliberate by the powers that be, because they know consciously or sub-consciously it would produce more Pinkes.

How can a person say they know what Jesus was saying or doing without an understanding of 100BC - 100AD Jewish culture? Is insanity, yet apparently a large percentage of Americans are professionals at it.

Aren't all Gods the deceptions? Especially with Abraham based religions, they are some what dual sided.