What if Jesus is the DECEPTION?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by colbe

 

1 - Again .. there is NO SUCH THING as 'yet to be approved' messages. 2 - Again.. these are CONDEMNED and are not from God.
3 - Again .. it is not helpful to people to push fake messages on them. If they were to convert because of fake messages, and then they found out those messages are fake, then their faith will be built on sand and easily washed away at the first rain storm. Matthew 7:24-27


Official stages of investigation into Catholic Apparitions

1) constat de supernaturalitate (established as supernatural),
2) constat de non supernaturalitate (established as not supernatural); or
3) non constat de supernaturalitate (not established as supernatural).

Please note that there is no ‘yet to be approved’ stage. If anyone says that a certain seer or alleged apparition is ‘yet to be approved’ .. don’t buy it. That PRESUMES that there will be an approval later and so it is a very disingenuous thing to say.

Responsibility of the Faithful in Regards to Alleged Apparitions

he first responsibility of the faithful is to remain firmly established in the faith, in the sacraments and in communion with the Pope and bishops. Any Catholic who gives their primary attention to alleged private revelation at the expense of Sacred Scripture, the teaching of the Church (especially the Catechism), sacramental practice, prayer and fidelity to Church authority is off course. The running after spiritual phenomena, such as alleged revelations, is condemned by St. John of the Cross as spiritual avarice. This means that pious souls who would be repulsed by crude materialistic greed think nothing of being greedy to know revelations and prophecies. An exclusive, or even a predominant attention to these matters (especially apocalyptic ones), cannot help but produce an unbalanced spirituality. Should the Church condemn some favorite alleged revelation such a person may find themselves believing more in it than in the supernatural authority of the Church. The devil will have succeeded in what he had set out to do.

edit on 8/6/2013


by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

There are daily yet to be approved messages from Heaven.

The Church has not investigated most all the current daily messages because there are so many, we are in the end times and some of the prophecies in them have not taken place yet. The Church is prudent, obvious. Medjugore has been taken out of the Bishops say and is now being studied by the Holy See.

BISHOPS have been WRONG on their disapproval of private revelation. Example, the powerful messages of Divine Mercy given St. Faustina. It looks like the same to happen for Medjugorje.

Read the messages from Heaven, they strengthen your faith, show the heartfelt love of God and give you and me hope.

A direct link to the daily Catholic messages - www.catholicbinder.com...

Originally posted by colbe
There are daily yet to be approved messages from Heaven.

That is disingenuous. Calling all messages 'yet to be approved' is nothing more than trying to sell those messages as something that will eventually be approved by the Church. That's a lie. It's RARE for the church to approve messages and to make a blanket statement that messages are 'yet to be approved' is deceitful.

And to call Condemned messages ... like Garbandal ... 'yet to be approved' ... is dead wrong.

BISHOPS have been WRONG on their disapproval of private revelation.

That is a RARE instance and to go about disregarding condemned messages because, once in a millenia the church reverses it's decision, is reckless behavior and it is against church teaching to do so.

Mystics of the Church

Jesus established the authority in the Catholic Church through the Apostles, with Peter as their Head. Through Apostolic and Papal succession, the Bishops are the successors to the Apostles, with the Pope (Peter) as the Head. And, as successors to the Apostles, it is the Bishops duty to safeguard and protect the faithful in the purity of the Catholic faith. The very real danger in following an alleged visionary is that one can very easily be led astray by the erroneous teachings and revelations of a false mystic or visionary. In fact, throughout the centuries, some Catholics have been led out of the Church by false visionaries and seers.

The Catholic Church, through the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit given to the Pope and the Bishops alone has the authority to judge the private revelations of mystics and visionaries, and it is our obligation and duty to obey the judgment of the Church. Catholics should be aware that willful disobedience to the Church is a sin. Willful disobedience is when one knowingly and intentionally disobeys the legitimate authority and judgment of the Church. (ie- local Bishop). Even should the local Bishop mistakenly disapprove of a genuine revelation, obedience to the Church always remains paramount. It is a sin to propagate a private revelation disobediently, but it can never be a sin not to propagate one.

While we are free to have an personal opinion regarding a private revelation, we must submit to the judgment of the Church with practical obedience. What this means is that while we are free to disagree privately with a Bishops decision, (the Bishop is not infallible these matters), we are obligated to obey with practical obedience, that is, we may not act against the Bishops decree or judgment; we may not propagate the private revelation or alleged messages that the Bishop has judged negatively, or continue to say publicly that you regard it as genuine. No private individual has the authority to judge definitively and officially which private revelations are true and which are not. The authority to rule on the authenticity of a private revelation rests solely with the local Bishop.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by colbe
There are daily yet to be approved messages from Heaven.

That is disingenuous. Calling all messages 'yet to be approved' is nothing more than trying to sell those messages as something that will eventually be approved by the Church. That's a lie. It's RARE for the church to approve messages and to make a blanket statement that messages are 'yet to be approved' is deceitful.

And to call Condemned messages ... like Garbandal ... 'yet to be approved' ... is dead wrong.

BISHOPS have been WRONG on their disapproval of private revelation.

That is a RARE instance and to go about disregarding condemned messages because, once in a millenia the church reverses it's decision, is reckless behavior and it is against church teaching to do so.

Mystics of the Church

Jesus established the authority in the Catholic Church through the Apostles, with Peter as their Head. Through Apostolic and Papal succession, the Bishops are the successors to the Apostles, with the Pope (Peter) as the Head. And, as successors to the Apostles, it is the Bishops duty to safeguard and protect the faithful in the purity of the Catholic faith. The very real danger in following an alleged visionary is that one can very easily be led astray by the erroneous teachings and revelations of a false mystic or visionary. In fact, throughout the centuries, some Catholics have been led out of the Church by false visionaries and seers.

The Catholic Church, through the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit given to the Pope and the Bishops alone has the authority to judge the private revelations of mystics and visionaries, and it is our obligation and duty to obey the judgment of the Church. Catholics should be aware that willful disobedience to the Church is a sin. Willful disobedience is when one knowingly and intentionally disobeys the legitimate authority and judgment of the Church. (ie- local Bishop). Even should the local Bishop mistakenly disapprove of a genuine revelation, obedience to the Church always remains paramount. It is a sin to propagate a private revelation disobediently, but it can never be a sin not to propagate one.

While we are free to have an personal opinion regarding a private revelation, we must submit to the judgment of the Church with practical obedience. What this means is that while we are free to disagree privately with a Bishops decision, (the Bishop is not infallible these matters), we are obligated to obey with practical obedience, that is, we may not act against the Bishops decree or judgment; we may not propagate the private revelation or alleged messages that the Bishop has judged negatively, or continue to say publicly that you regard it as genuine. No private individual has the authority to judge definitively and officially which private revelations are true and which are not. The authority to rule on the authenticity of a private revelation rests solely with the local Bishop.

Same old, you take a sentence out of my reply, enclose it and write a book afterwards.

God is speaking to the world through His chosen prophets every day. It is your free will choice to believe. You don't, I do.

People do not have to wait for approval by the Church to believe and share the messages from Heaven. Good thing, since you infallible FF says "It's RARE for the Church to approve messages"... Garabandal has NOT been decided. You can shout in caps CONDEMNED all you want, it is not true.

Listen folks to the first part of the EWTN audio archive I posted. Mother Angelica said herself, the messages of Divine Mercy given to St. Faustina are confirmed by Garabandal. Garabandal is mentioned a lot lately in the current messages from Heaven and even in the Protestant messages from Heaven, the Great Warning is described. God is preparing everyone. You only have to believe. Why would anyone want to deny the great gift of the "Warning?" God would do this, His desire to save souls.


God bless you FF,


colbe

Originally posted by BO XIAN
reply to post by BO XIAN

 

. . .

via Lee Strobel's THE CASE FOR THE REAL JESUS . . .

Interview with Craig A Evans, PhD . . . a decade as Editer-in-chief of the [I]Bulletin for Biblical Research[/I]. . . begins on p 29

- - -


Re the "SECRET GOSPEL OF MARK"

p48

"Morton Smith was a professor of Judeo-Christian origins at Columbia University for years. At a meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature in 1960, he announced that two years earlier he had made a historic discovery at the Mar Saba Monastery in the Judean wilderness. . . .

The document was never examined by experts because "It's gone. [I]Vanished[/I]."

He did photograph it. After he died, the photos were studied and analyzed by a well-regarded patent attorney and amateur biblical scholar who well investigated the case, including handwriting experts. He wrote therefrom:

[I]The Gospel Hoax: Morton Smith's Invention of Secret Mark[/I]

The evidence very starkly indicates a hoax and the weight of the evidence indicates that Smith, up for tenure, perpetrated the hoax.

= = = =

That's the ilk of the absurdities in or about all the more or less absurd challenges to the historical record.

I need to comment upon this. It just so happens that Evans is wrong on almost every point of importance regarding Secret Mark as it is presented in Strobel’s book.

Regarding Carlson’s so-called analyses – they have been refuted on almost every point including the handwriting analysis, on which no expert assisted him in the analysis (as Evans claims was the case). In fact, the Questioned Document Examiner Venetia Anastasopoulou who compared Smith’s handwriting with that of the writing of the letter claimed that it was highly unlikely that Smith would have been able to imitate the very difficult monastic Greek 18th century handwriting of the letter; which she judged to have been written by a skilled scribe.

Jesus and Lucifer are a deception.

The "light" (God and The Angels / Elohim / Annunaki) seeks to control everyone and everything. The Darkness (The Watchers / Nephilim / Igigi) they are the only one fighting against the for freedom.

Lucifer is a double agent, he pretends to be evil while he is being used by the Annunaki / Elohim. If you read The book of Job you would know his close relationship with "Yahweh/Anu" (Leader of Heavenly Hosts), and how Lucifer is here just to tempt people. He is not the true "Satan". He is Marduk, Murugan, one who has left the forces of darkness to be used by God (Leader of The Heavenly Hosts) . Whether he is serving the light knowingly or unknowingly, he is being used as a "temper" or an "adversary" (Satan) of mankind.

The Greatest deception was thinking that The Annunaki are fallen angels, when really The Annunaki are The Elohim and those who "fell" from the Annunaki/Elohim are called "igigi" (What the bible calls "Watchers").

Originally posted by arpgme
Jesus and Lucifer are a deception.

The "light" (God and The Angels / Elohim / Annunaki) seeks to control everyone and everything. The Darkness (The Watchers / Nephilim / Igigi) they are the only one fighting against the for freedom.

Lucifer is a double agent, he pretends to be evil while he is being used by the Annunaki / Elohim. If you read The book of Job you would know his close relationship with "Yahweh/Anu" (Leader of Heavenly Hosts), and how Lucifer is here just to tempt people. He is not the true "Satan". He is Marduk, Murugan, one who has left the forces of darkness to be used by God (Leader of The Heavenly Hosts) . Whether he is serving the light knowingly or unknowingly, he is being used as a "temper" or an "adversary" (Satan) of mankind.

The Greatest deception was thinking that The Annunaki are fallen angels, when really The Annunaki are The Elohim and those who "fell" from the Annunaki/Elohim are called "igigi" (What the bible calls "Watchers").

I as well think that Lucifer is a double agent and in so being "feels used" by both sides. He was promised a return that never happenned. He was promised liberation of/from the current ideaform (evil) he participated in manifesting. That of both 'enlightenment' (NEVER UNDERSTOOD BY CHRISTIANS) and "freewill", giving such a gift to the mammal form 'human'. If that IS percieved as EVIL then I do not understand LOVE. He feels totally cheated; and as you say Arpgme, he is not Satan whom rules the lower realms and dislikes being told he is one and the same thing entity. Lucifer is not unlike Jesus in the usership, because Jesus feels just as betrayed; laugh all that you like others, it is my truth as what I have been told BY THEM TO ME. The Annunaki are not fallen angels, they were the geneticists, creators of a potencial slave race that failed.

Jesus Christ, The Father and The Holy Ghost are three separate individulas, but ONE in purpose. The concept of God reasons a master intelligence, supreme charachter, infinite wisdom and eternal in nature. Is that not the aspiration of every living person? To be "God" is within every soul who has or will walk the earth. Jesus Christ had an exemplary life that demonstrated the highest integrity of any man known in history recorded. To follow Jesus is to move closer to a state of godliness. Jesus, himself followed The Father.

Originally posted by Premierwest
Jesus Christ, The Father and The Holy Ghost are three separate individulas, but ONE in purpose. The concept of God reasons a master intelligence, supreme charachter, infinite wisdom and eternal in nature. Is that not the aspiration of every living person? To be "God" is within every soul who has or will walk the earth. Jesus Christ had an exemplary life that demonstrated the highest integrity of any man known in history recorded. To follow Jesus is to move closer to a state of godliness. Jesus, himself followed The Father.

I had a great arguement with a cousin of mine at a recent 'family reunion, no one died'. She a ferverent Christian personality with a strong belief system; tells me we are all "the children of God". I said no, my perseption is that we are all particles of God expressing itself (to understand itself). She answers thus "I dont want to insult you with my beliefs" I say, there is no way you can insult me because I have no belief system I KNOW THE TRUTH. Agast, she says "well, we have to agree to disagree". Under my breath I say, this is a G. Gordon Liddy coin of phrase from his 1995 radio show 640 am dial. TO BE GOD IS YOU as you are its idea. Forget the Jesus equation as he is only the messenger of a hope you can perhaps realise; that you are the REALITY of THE god aspect manifested in the third dimension.

there is so much that I would like to respond to, but in light of my trying to understand, I refuse to get into a religious fight about what one believes or does not believe.......... i am still learning and finding my way. I can only hope you can understand and respect that.

reply to post by Jusvistn


I agree with your post. I believe in God, and I believe in cutting out the middle man, Jesus, and going straight to the source. I believe in cutting out Paul, who was an ego maniac and going straight to the source. I believe that Jesus was real and was a Rebel and did get crucified and then I think that he was used to create a religion as the ultimate martyr. I could be wrong...but my experience and research has led me down this path.

reply to post by Jusvistn


Your question is the definition of satanism.

They turn everything upside down and call good evil and evil good.

reply to post by RevelationGeneration


I'm not calling anything or anyone evil, and I'm certainly not a Satanist. I ask the question because I believe that the life and message of Jesus has been distorted, taken completely out of context and sensationalized to the point ppl believe more in the "son" than the Creator.

reply to post by Jusvistn

. . . the life and message of Jesus has been distorted, taken completely out of context and sensationalized to the point ppl believe more in the "son" than the Creator.

That is not a "distortion", it is placing God in the correct context, with Jesus being the living example of His character, rather than the mythologised context God had been placed in by the self-serving Jewish scriptures.

from the OP:

To me, Jesus is separate from God

If you have any belief in Jesus, it would ultimately have originated from the New Testament. Without the NT, there wouldn't be anything on which to base a belief in Jesus. So in one definition of the word, you could say that the new testament is the bible on Jesus. If you were to study the NT, you would see that according to what is written in it, Jesus is not "separate" from God.

and I have difficulty with the God made flesh aspect

1 Timothy 3:16 (a quote from the New Testament) says something about that,

Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
(2011 NIV)
where the situation is stated it in a very matter of fact way, as the source of the church, which is that "God", through the representation of one of the members of that godhead, came from heaven to earth where we live, demonstrating and making a reality, true holiness amongst us that we can share in.

that brings us to the whole Son, Spirit, Holy Ghost thing..... For me, to believe in the "one true God" means that Jesus would be no more than a teacher

The NT makes it clear, and goes to a lot of trouble setting it up, that Jesus was more than just a person who hit onto some underlying universal truths.
1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
(2011 NIV)
The way that I see it is that one can either believe what the NT says about Jesus, or forget anything about such a person ever having existed.
As for there being a "deception", I think that we should make a determination of that by looking at the results of this belief, whether the people who believe it, and the world in general, benefits from it. My opinion is that the preventable evil in the world comes from the actions of the people who do not believe in it.

reply to post by RevelationGeneration


Have you ever read "1984" by George Orwell? If you had, you would be painfully aware of how easily that particular table could be turned on you. Has it ever occurred to you that Emmanuel Goldstein could be the literary interpretation of what you call "Satan"? It could very easily be the case. You just choose to ignore that angle.

In the novel, Goldstein is rumoured to be a former top member of the Party and an early associate of its leader, "Big Brother". Goldstein is said to have broken away early in the movement and started an organization known as "The Brotherhood", dedicated to the fall of the Party. Ostensibly "The Brotherhood" is organized into cells, with each member required to read The Book, supposedly written by Goldstein, The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism. Goldstein is always the subject of the "Two Minutes Hate", a daily, 2-minute period beginning at 11:00 am at which an image of Goldstein is shown on the telescreen, which helps to ensure that popular devotion towards Big Brother is continuous.

The novel raises but leaves unanswered the questions of whether Goldstein or "The Brotherhood" really exist. When asked by Winston in the torture room, Inner Party member O'Brien adamantly refuses to reveal whether "The Brotherhood" truly exists.

No one prays for Satan. This, in my mind, is a huge flaw in the principle of prayer, which is half intention and other half devotion. You intend kindness for a fellow, and you demonstrate devotion by addressing that concern to the one entity with which you entrust all of destiny. If you refuse to pray for Satan, your intentions are not pure. If you refuse to pray for Satan, your devotion is selfish.

If you do not pray for Satan, that refusal is a demonstration of precisely the same demons that Jesus sought to eradicate. Cold indifference. Arrogant piety. You are encouraged to pray for the least of your brothers and sisters, and yet you would withhold that gesture from the one person who needs it most? Such hypocrisy.

And it only serves to support my earlier suggestion: Satan is Goldstein.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

You are encouraged to pray for the least of your brothers and sisters, and yet you would withhold that gesture from the one person who needs it most? Such hypocrisy.

Satan is definitely not our brother.
Satan is not even a human being.
I have serious doubts that Satan is an actual individual person.
Jesus already has judged, condemned, and cast down Satan.

reply to post by jmdewey60


If the Messiah was here would he even know who he is? Sorry to interupt thread. Would he know things that he couldnt explain or would he know?
Enjoying the thread.
Also all replies.

reply to post by Jusvistn


The key to your delema is in the understanding of the word "Elohim" translated as "God" in the commandments.

Elohim is a uni-plural word meaning it is singlular and plural. Like a last name.

Take for instance the English word "Smith". This is a name for a family of "Smiths". it can be one member large i.e. "Mr. Smith" or it can be hundreds of members large i.e. "The Smith's family reunion".

Elohim is the word for the "God" family, it is all mankind's eventual purpose to become a part of this family (curently there are only 2 members; God and Jesus), with Jesus Christ the first of the firstborn into the "Elohim" of God.

There is only 1 God Almighty (Yahwey Elohim) the creator of all life, designer of all nature, sustainer of all things. In the begining only He existed. Once Jesus Christ was born of Mary (did NOT eternally exist, he had a begining with Mary) suffered and died on the pole (NOT cross); after 3 days and 3 nights (72 hours) buried in the tomb; he was resurrected to eternal life as Jesus Christ Elohim, forever seated at the right hand of his father.

In Gods perfect plan for the creation of billions of "Elohim" (your eventual end), there had to be one to serve as the Passover sacrifice, the lamb of God sacrificed in order to take away the sins of all mankind in time.

Jesus Christ was this man, he was the Passover sacrifice from God to mankind, he is the first of the firstborn (144,000) of the Elohim of God (Children of God, Kingdom of God), all who eventually become part of Elohim, will follow the lead of their oldest brother Jesus.

Jesus Christ is NOT God, he is NOT to be worshipped as God, however his mind is in total unity with God's in all things. Jesus Christ is the high priest of the Church of God on Earth, Jesus Christ is the head of the Body of Christ, he has been given power and authority by God over such important matters, and so although he himself is not God (Yahwey Elohim) he is the single most important part of the entire equation (chief cornerstone) as God transforms mankind from physical birth (1st life), to physical death (1st death), to re-birth into judgement (2nd life), to overcoming self by growing in unity with the mind (spirit) of God (Great White Thrown Judgement) to birth into eternal life as Elohim, which has been your purpose from the begining.

God placed Jesus Christ over His church because there is no greater individual to handle the job of teaching how to overcome your physical carnal selfish human nature through the renewing of your mind by obedience to God's eternal laws. Jesus is the only man who lived in this age, to have been born physical and over the world through obedience to all God's laws in perfection every day of his life.

Now that Jesus Christ is in Elohim, he and God are at one (atoned) forever.

We pray to God (never to anyone else) through the power given to us by the acceptance of the Passover sacrifice Jesus Christ, whose death made the holies of the holies (God's thrown) accessible to those called out of the world by God during this age.

God Bless,

reply to post by ElohimJD

Jesus Christ was this man, he was the Passover sacrifice from God to mankind,

Jesus was not just an ordinary man according to the New Testament, but was in the form of god before he became a man.

1 Corinthians 5:7 makes a metaphorical statement that "Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed" to emphasize how we are in a special time of changed ethical standards.
It is not about a sacrifice in a literal sense, but was talking about Christian behavior.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Satan is definitely not our brother.
Satan is not even a human being.
I have serious doubts that Satan is an actual individual person.
Jesus already has judged, condemned, and cast down Satan.

Either Satan is out of the way, or Satan is a very real threat that we must be wary of in our imperfect state of being. It cannot be both ways.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Either Satan is out of the way, or Satan is a very real threat that we must be wary of in our imperfect state of being. It cannot be both ways.

You can take all the comments about Satan after the gospels, in the New Testament, and understand it in a metaphorical way of whatever that opposes the improvement of the world.
The point being that "Satan" ceases being an name of a person and becomes a term for a thing.