What if Jesus is the DECEPTION?

Originally posted by BO XIAN
reply to post by allenidaho

 

NOPE

WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Lee Strobel's THE CASE FOR THE REAL JESUS

refutes those allegations re dates etc.

Propaganda is a poor excuse for scholarship and factual historical evidence.

I'm sorry, could you be more specific?

What allegations and dates are you referring to?

Are you saying you have proof that Paul the Apostle didn't write most of the bible long after Jesus was already dead? Or are you just talking for the sake of talking?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

But just to be clear, I don't think that Jesus "twinned" at the cross only to exit the tomb into a life of debauchery. It just wasn't in his character.

If he "twinned", as you so eloquently put it, then there's obviously another side to him that the Bible never told you about. And that kinda removes you as a reliable authority of Jesus' character, don't you think? I mean, if you ever were one to begin with.

1st half of his life involved a sacred heart gird round by the thorns of sorrow and suffering,


so all I'm suggesting is that post-tomb, liberated, into the resurrected life, he would have also had the courage to be happy and enjoy life to the full even to overflowing, which would not negate or exclude the experience and joy of human sexuality. His character however, according to his "voice" is very clear, and it would not be in character for him to lose integrity and fall apart and become some sort of wretch. And "fun" needn't involve debauchery and debasing activities unbecoming such a Mage or Magus, and there's nothing wrong with healthy sex in a loving, mutually committed relationship. According to the untold story, he even took a second wife after Mary's death. And who could blame him? If anyone deserved to be happy and enjoy a full life, it was Jesus.

Just imagine his freedom and liberation from "the box" or the fated wedge he'd been driven into, having completed all that was required of him...

For more - see his conversation with his friends on the Road to Emmaus.

Originally posted by dominicus
I wish some of you guys would explain things to the OP without using scripture.

When I was an Atheist and people were convincing me about Christ, I did not care that they quoted a book written by Men, inspired by God. What is like 40-some-odd authors total.........

Backing up what Christ was, meant, did, represented ....using scriptures to an Atheist/Agnostic type, doesn't mean anything ...considering you have other religions doing the exact same thing saying only they are right....

When Jesus said that he and the Father are One, he was talking about an experience......he was merged with God, but also still man ....a blueprint for others.

......On top of that, he's not the only one to say that. Quite a few different and various Saint's have also said that they experience being One with God.......

reply to post by AfterInfinity


DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE WORDS""ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED(GOD BREATHED)?

reply to post by SimonPeter

Truly there is only one sin that will send you to hell and that is to let his blood sacrifice come to naught and Not partake of the Gift Jesus offered us

If you want to have something actually based on what the New Testament says, you can look at where it says that if you are "saved" and then just go right back to sinning, then you have an attitude that Jesus can just die again for you, which of course is not the way that it works in reality, but you more likely will end up stuck in Hell rather than being resurrected into the living world.
Hebrews 6,
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

reply to post by jmdewey60


YES!! JESUS paid our sin debt. Why not accept the free gift (pardon)?===We have all sinned, and the penalty had to be paid in order for God to be just. Christ has paid that penalty. Romans 5:6-10 says, "For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His love toward us, in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life". Such wonderful love for God and Christ to have paid our penalty.

Also, we read in I Peter 3:18, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God." Yes, Christ is the just, who had to die for us the unjust, so that it would be possible for us to be brought back to God. Because of the death and suffering of Christ for us, God can now be just in saving us.

The only way that man can be saved is through Christ. There is no other way. John 14:6 says, "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: No man comes to the Father except through Me." The only way we can get to God is through Christ. We also read in Acts 4:12, "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." We cannot be saved by relying on Mohammed, Buddha, Judaism, Hindu gods or any other way. Neither can we devise our own system of "Christianity" as is being done today and expect it to save us. Only Jesus Christ can specify the conditions for our salvation, because He paid our price and is our only saviour.

Originally posted by GISMYS
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE WORDS""ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED(GOD BREATHED)?

Im curious; what defines scripture, as in does it have to have been scribed by Monks and ordained only to rewrite some impossible missive they trust is real and true? Can scripture be defined in this age, lets say I have written a new missive that is GOD BREATH INSPIRED. Is mine just as valid? I was told it came from the horses mouth and I should write it and believe it- 1200 pages so far (the true story of mankind and its relationship with a Godform) straight from the mind of Origin. I am modern not ancient, do my writings carry the test of time, or are they more reasonable set within THIS TIME FRAME as this is all I know, and Im not carrying the burden of an unwieldy belief system to contaminate the ideas being set forth.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


I believe he means everything between the covers of "the bible"?

Just a guess...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

I believe he means everything between the covers of "the bible"?

Just a guess...

NO NOT EVERYTHING. he may have missed a few nouns and verbs and there are at least 45 different Christian Bibles out there (could not put to memory all?). Covers, Egyptian linen, covering up historical fact as fiction, too many options.

GOD INSPIRED SCRIPTURE IS FINISHED=ETERNAL TRUTH,GOD GIVES A WARNING TO THOSE THAT MIGHT TRY TO ADD OR TAKE AWAY ANY OF HIS WORDS. THE PRICE IS A HOME IN ETERNITY WITH HIM.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Told ya...

Originally posted by GISMYS
GOD INSPIRED SCRIPTURE IS FINISHED=ETERNAL TRUTH,GOD GIVES A WARNING TO THOSE THAT MIGHT TRY TO ADD OR TAKE AWAY ANY OF HIS WORDS. THE PRICE IS A HOME IN ETERNITY WITH HIM.

Not so apparently; according to IT as I am writing its words as we speak/type RIGHT NOW. Do you deny you are not speaking to God? This is not about taking away from anything, just adding a comment or two from your creator. You are arrogant. I pay no price for any home in eternity, as I created it and its waiting for me. God gives no warning or justification for human shannigans, as its all allowed, WHY YOU JUDGE is MORE interesting to me and WHO taught you/how to and gave you the permission of discernment to judge a human? I certainly didnt. You are negligible, and self pre-proposing. There is no price attached to the human being as it determines that itself (its called selfworth) and has nothing to do with your exacting FALSE certitude as an observer ONLY and I cant see your qualifications from here.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by GISMYS

 

In the old testment GOD judged mankind for his sin but in the new testment times after JESUS paid for our sins on that roman cross,believers can live their life as members of GOD'S family as sons.== 1 John 1:9

It doesn't ever say anywhere in the Bible that "JESUS paid for our sins".
No matter what, we are still required to not sin, once we accept membership in the church.
There is a future judgment pending for everyone.
1 Corinthians 11:32
Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

The writer of the John letters was dealing with people who thought that their real self was somehow detached from their bodies so that they could not be held accountable for what "it" does.
It is not John telling his own group to sin all they want and that they will always be forgiven.
He is saying that Jesus can make them clean of sin, meaning being cleansed from the inside so they don't commit sins.

edit on 11-7-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

I am curious what you think about all of the symbolism of the lamb and passover etc that foreshadows the crucifixion then? The whole kinsman redeemer idea? I agree that to repent is to turn from sin and we should still follow the commandments but how do you come to the conclusion that Christ death was for anything else but the redemption of mankind? What about gods grace? Seems to me if Jesus did not die for our sins then that puts it all on us to redeem ourselves

Originally posted by GISMYS
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE WORDS""ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED(GOD BREATHED)?

Who's scripture? Islam? Buddhists? Jews? Zen? Hinduism? Zoroastrianism? Vedas?

All relative. All say similar things........some different........but all say they are God breathed/inspired.
The Bible was also added to. It was just Torah to Jews, the Christians came and added more, when the Bible clearly says not to add.........its why Jews don't accept NT.

Also bible says: "the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth Life": words are just words. God is God

reply to post by dominicus


We would not even know about Jesus or what he said or did if it weren't for those words, so it's also important to have a little respect imho. I'm not too big on Church but I thank the church for holding the words for me so that I could find and encounter the living God in Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by dominicus

Originally posted by GISMYS
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE WORDS""ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED(GOD BREATHED)?

Who's scripture? Islam? Buddhists? Jews? Zen? Hinduism? Zoroastrianism? Vedas?

All relative. All say similar things........some different........but all say they are God breathed/inspired.
The Bible was also added to. It was just Torah to Jews, the Christians came and added more, when the Bible clearly says not to add.........its why Jews don't accept NT.

Also bible says: "the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth Life": words are just words. God is God

I think the Jews reject the New Testament because they rejected Christ and not so much to do with adding to scripture. You must not be aware of the Midrashim or the Talmud or many other Jewish text.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Yes i understand that and agree. But many praise the descriptions of God as if they were God himself, mistaken a map for the actual territory.

Also i believe people should study what all cultures say about God

reply to post by GISMYS

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

That is from your post where you were quoting from Romans 5, with the part I am quoting above, verse 9.
Notice that before the part you quoted, it says that were were justified by faith in verse 5.
So are we justified by faith or are we justified by Jesus' blood?
For the explanation, we should look at Romans three where Paul describes a new system of atonement between God and Man.

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement*, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

The whole theme of the Old Testament was about how Israel was punished by God for not keeping the Law. Now if you were a Jew back then, you might think that God was not fair because He did not punish the gentiles who never even made any pretense at keeping the Law of Moses. So Paul is explaining for their sakes how God is demonstrating how he is righteous and that he was being fair to not punish the gentiles because we now have a new system of being made right with God that does not require the adherence to the Mosaic Law.
How this helps to understand what we were looking at earlier in chapter 5 is that the blood was what created a break from the old system of atonement by God providing His own atonement on what now amounts to the new Mercy Seat, which is Jesus himself.
So when Paul says we are justified by faith, and then says that we have been justified by Jesus' blood, it means that we have entered into that new system of righteousness that Jesus opened for us, and now stand in a better light in regards to God's view of us than we did before Jesus died to set us free from that old system that would have had us all becoming Jews.

* a reference to the Mercy Seat

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by akushla99
When I was 3, I 'crushed' a kitten with the truth of my love for it...

2nd line...
3rd line...

Å99

When I was 3 I killed my pet canary to death. It pecked at me, and bit; hated me and so I loved it into oblivion, think I squeezed its life out one day (still feel badly about it). Somehow the final story was, my cousin gave it a bath and it caught cold, dead on the bottom of the cage. Whats going on with the three year old mindset? Godly power enforced at such a young age already. Off topic but does in a sense combine Jesus "greatest of all used shills" with innocent 3 year olds and their lacking of the understanding of what "animals Major" are. Jesus was not a deception, he was USED royally as a distraction, posterboy for Christianity. When he was ministering there was no term "Christ" Paul invented it, Jesus was not Greek, he spoke it, yes, but never claimed himself to be the Christos. This was a political manuvuer to elevate a common Rabbi into a messiah, (without the jurisdiction or sanctions of the Judiaic traditions). Who was behind it all. Just another free thinker becomes the clothing/bloody dressing for an upright and cross bar. NOT A CROSS, a T form. Who was running the show at the time. We know the bible was written afterfact. What was the point, and why are so many jumping on the 3rd rail to believe this guff that the human invented (the NOT SO TRUE) as has become very good story telling apparently.

edit on 11-7-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

Ideas, notions, origami monsters get supernova-ed from the crushing...our stories fit, they were personal, accidental, misguided...that's easy to recognize in childish thought/action...

There are always the literalists (God bless 'em) - of course, only when it serves the internal logic, when the spaghetti junction turn-off procedures are more noticeable by thier conspicuousness...looks like panic, hunkering down...utilising one self-referential scripture to describe a wholly subjective and personal experience...oh, the cheeky rabbits! The experience of red exists because I can sense it - but then again, I may be hallucinating...lol...

The Little Golden Book franchise is coming along quite nicely, reprints, edits and all...one would have thought there was only one company dealing in the story telling...apparently, there is no democracy in the heavens...'it's my way, or the highway'...funnily enough, as we have discussed on these very boards, this requires other locales to house the 'damned'...there is one of these also...surprise, surprise...basic child psychology...it would be laughable, if it wasn't so serious in the eyes of baked-on cyclops adherents?

Being 'used' as deception, would probably have been a better title, closer to the truth...but, there's no medals for the 'losers'...it's the victors who write history...and can rightly claim the literature (and its interpretation) as legitimisation...that's origami heaven...lol...

Å99

reply to post by NihilistSanta

I am curious what you think about all of the symbolism of the lamb and passover etc that foreshadows the crucifixion then?

I think that is a sort of Christian myth that some people hold, that there were these secret predictions built into the Old Testament that were somehow word for word explanations for what Jesus later on did.
I think it is the reverse, where the New Testament writers were looking for validation from the Old Testament and found new interpretations for old ideas.

The whole kinsman redeemer idea? I agree that to repent is to turn from sin and we should still follow the commandments but how do you come to the conclusion that Christ death was for anything else but the redemption of mankind?

I do believe in that, and I believe it is the people who oppose me on this forum who are the ones who ignore that aspect of it, in favor of some modern theory of salvation.

What about gods grace?

God's "Grace" is the open invitation to everyone regardless of race, or gender, or poverty, or free or bound.

Seems to me if Jesus did not die for our sins then that puts it all on us to redeem ourselves

The whole world is redeemed by Jesus having been made our high priest to a new ministry.
Jesus died because we were sinful. Jesus, being righteous while at the same time being a human being like us, makes us as a species worthy (with Jesus now serving as our representative before God) to have the spirit of God dwell in us, through Jesus who receives it from God, and in turn gives it to us as the Christ spirit. That gives us the necessary advantage towards being righteous ourselves as God would have us.