Why didn't God smite Adam & Eve?

Originally posted by windsorblue
The whole 'don't eat from the tree of knowledge' thing also bugged me, if Adam and Eve did not have any idea of right from wrong before they ate of the fruit, they would have not comprehended before hand that this was the wrong thing to do. It would not matter if God told them not to because they would not understand the concept. It also raises the question (in my own opinion) that if everyone else after Adam and Eve retained the forbidden knowledge then are we not all different to what God originally intended mankind to be?

edit on 9-7-2013 by windsorblue because: (no reason given)

See? You hit on the very reason He didn't smite them, and allowed them to learn from the event. Yes, we are different, if unforgiven. The most important thing, though, is that God knew this would happen, and planned, from before creation, to make a way back to where we should be. You seem to understand, from the OP, that the consequence should have been death. So, God died in their place. In our place. That's the thing to remember. God allowed us to learn, and to choose to accept His forgiveness, and be seen washed clean of all wrongdoing. Even in this we have a choice; to accept His sacrifice, or to reject it and Him, and be eternally separate.

Because god isn't real, that's why he didn't smile.

What would be the point of allowing Adam and Eve free will if you intend to smite them the moment they make use of it?

Also, at the risk of pissing off the fundamentalists

(a) there is nothing intrinsic to the pericope that identifies the snake with Satan, that's an interpretation made in the NT, if you read Genesis 3 on its own merits it is merely talking about the snake as one "of the wild animals the Lord God had made". the same goes for reading 3:14-19 from a christologian perspective - the text makes perfect sense when read on its own (feet biting, head crushing are simple observations of everyday facts) and doesn't contain anythign that would even hint at some sort of Messiah figure.

(b) the motives of the text make a lot of sense if you assume it is directed against contemporary fertility rites. the snake was a very common symbol of fertility and many of the motives mentioned in the text: tree of knowledge, tree of life, punishment by labor pains, shame at nakedness (sexuality?), cultivation of land, the lush Garden of Eden, sexual intercourse (Gen 4:1, very first thing Adam and Eve do after leaving the garden), ... fall into that topic.
OT stories explain the world in the here and now (the "then and there" from our pov) through legends that describe how these circumstances came to be "Why do we dislike the Moabites? Because they are the offspring of an incestuous union of Lot and his daughters."
"Why are Kanaanite fertility cults bad for you? because the snake is treacherous and caused the opposite of what it promised - out of fertile Eden into the barren world, away from careless innocence to painful and dangerous labor (as a consequence of sexual desire), no secret knowledge - other than shame about your own actions, not eternal life but death, ..."

reply to post by windsorblue


God's plans are complicated.

I for example am pretty smart person, and I can't begin to understand God's plan

So to try and apply simple human logic to all of this is inadequate.

God clearly wanted humans to multiply, God clearly wanted good and evil to mix and match its wits.

Why else would Satan and his pals be thrown here among us.

The whole thing is preplanned.

I am telling you people, I don't know anything, BUT I DO KNOW

THE WHOLE THING IS PRE-PLANNED

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by windsorblue
reply to post by Cuervo

 

I actually forgot about the part were God told them they would die if they ate the fruit (unless they were intended to be immortal and death was part of the punishment ) and what the serpent told them turned out to be the truth, but what if they would have eaten from the tree of life, I wonder what would have happened then???

It's just an uncomfortable topic because, if you are to take Genesis literally, a Christian would have to admit that the god in the garden was lying and that the serpent was not. They were never immortal and the tree of knowledge did not kill them. In fact, the only bad things to come of it was what their god chose to do to them as punishment. All the tree did was make them awesome.... I don't believe that whole pantheon anyway but, if I did, I'd totally be on the serpent's side. He's not the one who screwed my entire species nor lied to me about it.

The Biblical word for God is “EL” and that word is not Jewish in origin, but rather it traces back to older Levant (Canaanite) religion. The patriarch Abraham is known as the father of the world’s three great monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. For centuries his faithfulness to one god (at a time when people worshiped many deities) has been regarded as a monumental break with the society around him. However, an archaeological discovery known as the Ugaritic texts is opening a window onto a different cultural context for Abraham’s story and it is turning most assumptions about “god” on their head.

Polytheistism, God, and the Ugarit Text

There is much evidence that the Israelites were originally polytheistic and Yahweh was only one of the gods in their pantheon, but being their national god he became the prominent figure and eventually the only one to survive as the God meme developed. I have attached a video that talks about this, I think you find it very informative.

Because god is a fantasy.

reply to post by OpenEars123


I don't believe any one should apologise for stating what they do or do not believe in (as long as they are not trying to shove their beliefs down your throat like some atheist's and believers do). I work with a group of people, some Catholics, some Muslims and one Hindi and a few atheists (I count myself as a gnostic these days) , and if the subject of religion is raised it is always discussed in a polite and relevant manner (I never new for instance that Muslims believe Jesus existed, not as the son of God but as a prophet and follow his teachings, you live and learn) . The gift of free will allows us to question each another and our beliefs, if we were not allowed to question our teachings then what is the point of free will? You have chosen not believe and I have chosen to believe, should this lead to confrontation because we have conflicted views? of course not, should it lead to open and relevant discussion? yes. Sadly there is too many people on either side of the fence who are not as courteous as yourself and are openly hostile to any opposite view point. (sorry for going off on a tangent from the subject, had to get that off my chest))

reply to post by JilianK


I'm not going to argue with your belief, but I would like to postulate some question's if I may :If all is pre-planned is there free will and how can sin exist?. for example,If for some reason I wanted to carry out a heinous crime, and it was pre-planned millennia before my birth, how can I be held accountable for carrying out this act if it was always my destiny to do it? would It not negate the fact that I had a choice, and thus not having a choice would mean I did not have the free will to carry out or not carry out the crime?

reply to post by OpenEars123

Well, thank you.

No, I do not change my posts because of my moderator status. If I do anything, I simply refuse to get involved in the discussion. What you read is my position on the topic, regardless of where I am or who I am around or what I am doing.

I am probably as intolerant of religious zealots as anyone around. Jesus Himself spoke quite harshly regarding the Scribes and Pharisees, the religious rulers of the day. He called them "hypocrits"... I despise hypocrits.

The biggest problem Christianity has today is the lack of understanding most people have about it. I see arguments all day long based on a complete misunderstanding of the basic tenets of the religion... some from those professing the faith. I simply bite my tongue and move on. Their mind is closed and they cannot accept anything which contradicts their interpretation of events. A line from the movie Avatar says it best: "One cannot fill a cup which is already full."

That is the concept behind the oft-quoted line, "cast not thy pearls before swine."

Of course, I cannot blame the individuals who have the misunderstanding... I blame those who should be teaching them. I blame the churches who preach charity then walk by those in need with their noses so high in the air they'll drown if it rains. I blame those who sit in the pews screaming "Amen brother!" to a sermon about the evils of drinking, then show up at a local bar that night obnoxiously drunk. I blame those who sit and nod approvingly to the message of "love thy neighbor"... on their side of the aisle because they're mad at everyone on the other side.

Yeah, that's experience talking. I consider myself a strong Christian, but I have also been kicked out of or been disgusted by every decent church around here at one time or another. My altar is in the mountains behind my home, not at the front of a church aisle underneath the pulpit. That one is for others who can feel God there. I can't.

I believe my Bible (as written, not as interpreted).... I believe Jesus was the Son of God and that he died for the sins of the world out of unconditional love. That is not blind faith, although blind true faith would be preferable. it is the result of questioning everything I read and saw and experienced in my life and finally getting the answer. So when I am confronted with someone whose cup is already full, I just smile and change the subject. My cup may not be full, as I still question to better understand, but I do have a preference for the tap I am using.

TheRedneck

It's actually a great question that the OP has asked.

The quick answer to your question is that they did die that day. They died in Christ [like Paul said "I am crucified in Christ Gal 2:20]. They live because of Christ's atonement in which He took the totality of sinful humanity to the cross, crucified it. Romans 5"6 You see, at just the right time, when we were STILL POWERLESS, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS, Christ died for us." [emphasis mine]

Because of Christ's spotless life lived in complete obediance to God's law [John 14:31, 12:49], combined with the fact that He himself IS live eternal could then raise that humanity to have life like His. John 11:25 "Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;"

What Christ accomplished on the Cross affected all of humanity Past, Present, and Future.
Revelation 13:8 "8 Everyone living on earth will worship it, everyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life. That book belongs to the lamb who was slaughtered BEFORE the creation of the world." [epmhasis mine]
Had Christ not died for us and saved us from sin, Adam and Eve would have ceased to exist.

As to why God did not just let them die and start again the quick answer to that is that because GOD SO LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever Believes in shall NOT DIE but have EVERlasting Life. [John 3:16]

Hope that helps

reply to post by windsorblue


God didn't smite Eve because he/she couldn't, Lucifer took Eve to punish Adam and God.

reply to post by windsorblue

Because it was anticipated as an inevitability, and He (God) had a plan hatched even from the very origin of the creation to remedy the situation whereby He himself would accept full responsibility.

Personally, I think that the whole thing is extremely humorous, in the best possible way, when asking the question - how did He know?

As to the "snake" I think that's an allegory for the inevitable rise of kundalini, the only problem being that only the One above all who transcends the duality, is equipped to judge good from evil, and so the introduction of duality in a false judgement by man caused the fall from Grace, until the Tree of Life was reintroduced in the form of God on the cross, freely available to all who hunger and thirst for righteousness and a resolution, in principal, to the paradox and the degenerative problem of sin and evil, all without forsaking free will without which a loving mutuality between man and God is impossible because love to be love must be freely given and freely received in kind.

Best regards,

NAM

Originally posted by windsorblue
reply to post by JilianK

 

I'm not going to argue with your belief, but I would like to postulate some question's if I may :If all is pre-planned is there free will and how can sin exist?. ...

Thanks for posting this.The basis of this statement is the only logical conclusion because it is based in the Truth.
I don't think pre-planned/ determination is an acurate term.I gives the illusion that choices weren't made.Man makes millions of choices however none of them are free of causation.There is an underlining cause in every one even the haphazard and again none of them are "free" of causation that is outside of their will.

In Gods sovereignty his omniscience isn't simple knowing.Unlike man everything God knows is caused to happen.In other words he does not have frivolous thoughts they all have intent and purpose.God could and would not think anything unless his purpose is to cause it to happen.And he causes it to happens by his soveriegn omipotence.Nothing can thwart Gods will.None of his creations will trump his will.He is not bound by them nor can he make them free from his will nor does he need to make them free from his causation.That would make God imperfect.

The biggest false notion is man has a free will when it is impossible.The rub is.. it is impossible for man to belive they don't have a free will.That is why 99.999999999999...% of all men "beleive" they have free will.It is the great equalizer common ground.And it is precisely on this common ground that all imperfection is founded.

Eve was not perfect then fell.She and Adam were already imperfect.The acted upon their imperfections "believing" they had free will(i.e..They were God unto themselves).The scriptures say nothing of this fall from perfection to imperfection nor does logic.Perfection can NEVER become imperfect.It is not in it's nature.Just because God said it is good when he created everything does not mean it is perfect.(mature)

The bottom line fact is God is responsible for EVERYTHING.That is the other logical conclusion 99.9999999999...% cannot belive.They only assign him responsibility (in both sense of the word) that "they want"...and of course the irony is God is causing that also.

This world is nothing like mankind thinks it is.It is not a "testing " ground to determine who's going to heaven or hell(neither are places or are what the majority belive).It is also not the wild frontier everyman for himself.Even though many of those folks that believe that seem much more sensible to me.They have no fantasy of heaven nor hell.They don't "act" good in fear of hope of either they just act good because it's the right thing to do.They are much closer to Gods than they or the religious believe.

The bottom bottom line is all of this realm of the valley of the shadow of death is religion....belief.Completely unsubsatntiated speculation colored with billions of expereinces that are based on the wrong premise of the belief of free will that colors everything in unreality.
The "good " thing is God is causing all of this and is responsible.There is a purpose for this mass blindness.Most of mankind cannot accept reality....especially this concept of free will.It would literaly make them irresponsible for everything and in their imperfection take advantage and run amok.
I hope you can see why I think that "some"who aren't religious would most likely not do that.They have not been given faith in God.Therefore some of them beleive they are responsible for themselves and the tendancy for them is to follow the golden rule .That doesn't wash away their imperfection.Just one less process of salvation for them.They will not need to have religion-religion killed in them.

Gods purpose in all of this is onefold.To commune with his creation so they will know him..not "believe" in him.It should be obvious what 'faith" does.Belief is necassary though.It is the first step.All will believe then all will know...and God is the cause of every step by every man and everything.It can be no other way.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


The Pre - planning' as you described does seem to smack of 'I threw a little kid into a swimming pool and then dived in to save him from drowning...aren't I the hero'. For me predetermination seems to be a massive paradox, you are destined to sin and there is nothing you can do change that, but for that sin you shall be punished for eternity. Also if this is God's plan doesn't that make him responsible for the Holocaust, JFK, every war that ever happened and even 9/11?

I believe we have free will, there is no plan (If you believe different then all respect to you and your faith). God (to me) has cut the umbilical cord and has left his (or her) children to determine their own fate and govern are own actions. And it's through these actions we show or (or lack of) humanity and love to each another as brothers and sisters and insatiable curiosity about the universe we live in. And that is probably what any parent would want, a questioning child who wants understand there existence and shows respect to all race's, colour's and creed's.

reply to post by Rex282


So free will is an illusion and it is impossible for me to follow the path in life I have chosen for myself? Then, as you have written, God is responsible for everything and therefore I cannot take responsibility for the actions or sins that occur in my life. (again I am not trying to disagree or insult your standpoint ). As you may have seen from my previous posts, I see humanity from a different perspective, one that gives us the free will to live our lives by are own ideas and activities.

I do agree with you that those who do not hold with religion do seem to be more prone to accept responsibility for there own actions, and live a better life for it.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by windsorblue

 

Because it was anticipated as an inevitability, and He (God) had a plan hatched even from the very origin of the creation to remedy the situation whereby He himself would accept full responsibility.

Personally, I think that the whole thing is extremely humorous, in the best possible way, when asking the question - how did He know?

So, in a nutshell, the answer to your query is - because God works in very VERY mysterious, and, if my own evaluation, that's been and which may be tested by the light of gnosis (knowledge) is correct, very VERY humorous (and loving) ways!

reply to post by windsorblue


All I'm saying is that a return path to God was made and is still freely available.as a domain of liberation and newfound enjoyment for the human being, once the fundamental truth is realized or "grokked" and it has to happen at some point... so it's nice to know that it hasn't gone away, imho.

I wanted to go into more detail on this concept, but Thorlongus did indeed introduce it first:

Originally posted by Thorlongus22
reply to post by windsorblue

 

The reason why God didn't smite Adam and Eve is because, it was part of his plan to have them partake of the fruit. God said that they could choose to eat it but that he forbade it. He gave us free agency to do what we want. Satan came and tricked Eve into eating it and because she ate it, she would become mortal and be cast out of Eden so Adam ate it too, so that he would be with his wife. The reason I say it is a part of his plan is because while they were in the garden of Eden, they were immortal and couldn't have children, but God gave them a commandment to go and replenish the Earth. The only way they could do that was by becoming mortal.

I believe that partaking of the fruit was not a sin, per se. If I tell my kid to not touch the hot stove, and he does, I don't punish him further. He would be making an innocent, but incorrect decision. Just like a young child, Adam and Eve didn't have enough understanding to willfully "sin" against God; only partaking of the fruit gave them the knowledge (hence the fig leaves post-fruit). In fact, God does not declare eating the fruit to be a sin. He says (KJV Gen. 2:16,17):

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Just as I would explain the consequences of a fresh burn to a five year old, God explains the consequences of their choice to them further into the chapter. In my case, I would explain physics and physiology. For God, to be honest means he must be clear that "I will multiply your sorrows", etc etc, because God cannot contradict his own law, and he must change them from immortal to mortal.
Note that after explaining the consequences, God provides proper clothing to protect Adam and Eve as they go out into the world. (Gen. 3:21). This and other guidance shows a loving God who is still focused on the success of his children.

Contrast this with the other great command which God gave Adam and Eve, prior to eating the fruit (KJV Gen 1:27,28):

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

It is widely accepted that prior to partaking of the fruit Adam and Eve were immortal, innocent and unable (either physically or intellectually) of "multiplying and replenishing the earth."

Eve, as is so often the case with many wives, figured it out before Adam. There were two conflicting commands. When the serpent tempted her, I absolutely believe that she understood the concept involved. They could not follow both commandments. Once she brought the fruit to Adam, he knew he was commanded to stay with his wife, and must also partake to obey (KJV Gen. 2:24).

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Was the knowledge of good and evil gained prematurely? Perhaps yes through satan's intervention, or perhaps not, as God was well aware and allowed satan to tempt the innocent Eve. Allowing this to play out would put into motion His plan by which all our souls have come to earth. If the fruit were to remain untouched, God's express work in the creation of humanity would be stalled out.

Originally posted by blamethegreys
Allowing this to play out would put into motion His plan by which all our souls have come to earth. If the fruit were to remain untouched, God's express work in the creation of humanity would be stalled out.

Thus, the humor at the realization, and the joy of the recognition at what God set out to do as a provision so as not to leave any of his children orphaned in time and history. It's a great marvel worthy of our celebration!

Your answer is here:

14:16