Why didn't God smite Adam & Eve?, page 2

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:22 AM

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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

While I typically ignore questions like this, the OP sounds sincere in this case... forgive me if I misread and this is just another attempt to disprove something that cannot by definition be proven or disproven.

The following is a serious explanation of the beliefs I hold. If someone reading this wishes to ridicule them, please proceed. In doing so you show your own prejudice, intolerance, and narrow-mindedness. I will not respond to such as there is no need to show further what you show so well without assistance.

Serious discussion will of course be acknowledged.

God did not, contrary to popular opinion, just walk around smiting anything and everything that offended Him in the Old Testament. The smitings were necessary to accomplish His goals within the laws He originally set up. If He had wanted to find people who He could hurt, He wouldn't have had to look far. The Bible is full of examples of misdeeds.

Adam and Eve ate of the only tree in the garden that they were told to not eat of. That was their test. Had the tree not been there, or had they somehow been prevented from being able to eat of the tree, there would have been no test. Unlike every other creation God had made, Adam and Eve had free will... permission, if you will, to sin. That did not relieve them of the consequences of their actions, but it did allow God to forgive them.

God did not want automaton servants... He has plenty of them... he wanted someone to choose to be with Him.

God did not curse Adam and Eve after the fall. Adam and Eve cursed Adam and Eve by their choice. God did curse the serpent (an actual dragon?) for tempting them, and out of necessity, God prevented them from living in the garden thereafter. But all He did to Adam and Eve was explain to them the extent of the curse they placed on themselves.

The rest of the Old Testament is the history of the Jewish people as it pertains to God trying to remove that curse from humanity. There were times when He had to intervene, yes, but the interventions were as minor as possible to still accomplish the goal.

I can see in my mind now that I am a father, the story of how a child had everything a father could give, and because of a bad choice lost it all. I can see the actions of that father, following the errand misadventures of that child, working diligently to get the child to the point where all could be forgiven and the child could start anew. I can see in the story of the Jews true love, even in the face of utter disobedience and almost fanatic attempts to stay under the curse mankind put upon itself.

Yeah, it might have been easier to start over... but we wouldn't be here then, would we?

TheRedneck

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

windsorblue

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:25 AM

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Complaining? when is asking questions complaining?

SLAYER69

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:25 AM

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Originally posted by sulaw
reply to post by SLAYER69

If you find "the way" please let me know and i'll be sure to follow

We'll start a religion or be accused of being antimazians.

Kody27

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:28 AM

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Originally posted by windsorblue
Sorry if these question's cause any offence, that is not my intention, they are question's that have beleaguered my little mind since childhood (I did ask the questions in the Catholic school I attended, but being called a 'wicked boy' and getting my backside leathered with a wooden ruler was not really the answer I was hoping for) so here goes:

Q) Why didn’t God smite Adam and Eve for eating the forbidden fruit? In the Old Testament God is not too shy in smiting and a slaying all those who have offended him. Would it have not been a better idea to restart from the beginning with the destruction of these two, create a new couple who would adhere to his rules and negate humanity being cast out of Eden?

Is there any serious theological answers to these please? (this is my first thread, please be gentle)

Haha just another logical fallacy in the whole "interpreting the Bible literally" thing.

The story of Adam and Eve is a metaphor. Wait what? You mean a woman didn't really get created by a rib and tempted by a talking snake in a tree of magical fruit?

No. It's called symbolism. The tree of life and the tree of knowledge are Kabbalistic concepts that refer to a diagram that Jewish Mystics used to map the pattern of creation. Creation of the universe, creation of an idea, anything. The fruit on this tree are called Sephiroths. There are 10 Sephiroths and 1 anti-sephiroth called Da'ath, which is kind of like Death. It is the abyss between the supernal triad of holy sephiroths, which are basically just pure types of consciousness, that are above normal human consciousness. I can elaborate more on this if you wish, there is so much to explain really.

toktaylor

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:29 AM

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reply to post by TheRedneck

As a father, you would leave the acid out for your toddler to consume. This would prove or test their obedience of "Do not drink the acid". Or you would remove the acid, keep it out of harms way, whilst teaching the child of all the dangers than can arise from putting things in its mouth.

Reasoning and logic cannot be applied when discussing the stories of the bible.....

windsorblue

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:30 AM

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Thank you very much for your reply. The questions were sincere and asked from the heart and not aimed at causing any disrespect to other peoples beliefs or faiths. Maybe I should clarify the point I am trying to find a respectful answer (like the one you posted) too. why didn't God just start the human race again?

SLAYER69

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:30 AM

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reply to post by Kody27

Symbolism...

I have issues with that.
Why not just say what is trying to be conveyed straight out?

The wisdom and knowledge of an Infinite being *God attempted to be confined within the pages of one book by a finite being *man

edit on 9-7-2013 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

DISRAELI

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:31 AM

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reply to post by windsorblue

My point was this;
Are you pleased, or disappointed that the human race was not destroyed?
If you are pleased that the human race continues, if you think it was a good idea, then where's the mystery in God agreeing with you?

On the other hand, if you are disappointed that the human race was not destroyed, then you have a legitimate grievance and can demand an explanation.

TheRedneck

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:39 AM

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reply to post by toktaylor

As a father, I realize that my child has free will and will make a choice with that free will. The tree was far from a type of "acid"... it was more like "you can play with everything in this yard except that one toy over there. Don't touch it," assuming for this analogy that the toy in question is one that the child is not yet old enough to play with safely. An even better analogy would be "You can play in the house, but don't touch the electrical outlets."

I repeat: if there were no way to possibly sin, if there was nothing that was off limits, if there were no ability to sin, where is free will? And without free will, there can be no sin. Without the ability to make a choice, there is no way to determine what choice would be made. Without choice, a person is little more than an organic robot.

I do not know the mind of God or even what it was about that tree that made God forbid it to them. But I do know this: according to the Bible, the garden was full of fruit, more than they could have possibly eaten, of all types, including the Tree of Life. That one lone tree was all that was forbidden.

TheRedneck

(windsorblue, if you will click the "reply" link at the top right of a post, it will show that you are replying to that post. Just add in your content.)

edit on 7/9/2013 by TheRedneck because: (no reason given)

windsorblue

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:44 AM

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I am not saying the human race should have been destroyed. All I am asking is why could he have not restarted with another Adam and Eve and rebooted humanity. I am not a religious zealot who takes things at face value or holds with organised religions, I just wish to see if there is any answers to something that was taught to me as a child , and also told to my children and probably every one on this site. Is it wrong to question what we are shown? or do the heavy handed nuns have a point and we should not question what we are told?

edit on 9-7-2013 by windsorblue because: (no reason given)

LABTECH767

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:47 AM

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reply to post by windsorblue

Weather you accept the genesis as a real story or an allegorical tale if you believe in god you have to accept that everything no matter how horrible or nice is for a reason, maybe not his plan but a reason and he can make mistakes too, now he has two children and they get unruly and he gets angry so he takes life back and they become mortal which means they die, now he is not mortal so at first maybe does not comprehend the severity of his action and that he tries to put right much later and about 2000 years ago.

HE did smite them, he also booted them out of his house and told them to make there own way in the earth (something a lot of parents have done and regretted - hey nobody said he was a perfect father), he was sorry he ever made them (he was angry for a long time with them) and at last he was sorry he ever got angry with his kid's but done is done and he can't just fix it without having to totally remake it so the act of fixing it would destroy it, and so he saves them as spirits to fix later when the ultimate purpose of the universe is done and he tells them he will make a new heaven and earth and if they behave themselves he wont ground them again ( bit more sever but he was new to this father thing, though he had made angels he was not there father in the same way as they were made not in the same way ) and he will let them live there but they will now never grow up to be like him because of what originally happened so they will grow up to be like the angels, they took of the tree of knowledge but exactly what does that actually mean, is there someone out there whom was going to be there brother or sister whom now has no mind because they took more than there share, there was only one tree of knowledge in that garden?.

TheRedneck

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:52 AM

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reply to post by windsorblue

In my opinion, the true sin lies in not questioning the teachings we are exposed to. Not questioning has led to many atrocities throughout history in the name of religion. Questioning leads to truth.

Let me ask you this: when one attends school, is the goal not to learn? And if the goal is to learn, is it not proper and necessary to question an aspect of a lesson you do not fully understand?

God wrote a book*, indicating that He wants us to understand. It makes no sense to author a book and then forbid questions about the meaning of the book. I believe God wants us to follow Him, search Him out, try to understand Him, so we can one day be with Him in more than spirit like Adam and Eve were. In that light, perhaps He is "rebooting" humanity, just with those who choose to be a part of the "reboot."

I had never thought on that before... thank you for that inspiration.

TheRedneck

* Yes, I know the actual words were penned by men.

DISRAELI

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:56 AM

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Originally posted by windsorblue
I am not saying the human race should have been destroyed. All I am asking is why could he have not restarted with another Adam and Eve and rebooted humanity.

Because he possesses the quality of patience. Sometimes called "long-suffering" in the Old Testament
Like any good teacher of small children and slow learners, he keeps going.
If you would have thrown in the towel immediately, and made a fresh start with somebody else, that shows that you don't have the same degree of patience.

Kody27

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 09:58 AM

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Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Kody27

Symbolism...

I have issues with that.
Why not just say what is trying to be conveyed straight out?

The wisdom and knowledge of an Infinite being *God attempted to be confined within the pages of one book by a finite being *man
edit on 9-7-2013 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

Firstly, because "God" didn't "write" anything.

Secondly, because the people that did write those things, thought that the information itself was sacred, and didn't deserve to be bestowed upon the average moron. "Like casting pearls before swine", everything was written in symbolism back then, and still today actually, whether intentionally or not. The Bible is similarly written to alchemical texts of a few centuries ago, which makes sense since they both have their roots in mysticism, particularly jewish mysticism. "The lips of wisdom are closed except to the ears of understanding" is how the Bible is written. On the surface, it is a child's story, of Humpty Dumpty and the story of creation. But just like the nursery rhyme itself, the bible is also a metaphor, an analogy, a symbol. Humpty Dumpty was a giant egg, representing the egg of creation, or the potential for life, fertility, etc....Creation had a great "fall" (sound familiar?) and all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put him back together again. Which insinuates that only the King himself can create life, not the "king's" (God) men.

You see everything is riddled with symbolism, they didn't just flat out say that because if they said what they meant no one would want to really follow their religion. Because it would take away the whole major concern with the Judaeo-Christian faiths, that there is some external outside God judging you and he created all these fairy tales in the Bible to scare us into worshipping him so we won't fry.

toktaylor

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 10:01 AM

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reply to post by TheRedneck

As in the case with acid and the toddler, you remove the “choice” with the hazardous consequent. If the acid (or fruit) is not there for you to choose from, then there is no limit to your free will. There will be other choices (fruits) to make without disastrous result and your “free will” remains intact.
If you are told that you have a choice in something however the result is death, fire and brimstone and everlasting punishment then right there your “free will” is influenced and is not so free anymore put comes with a heavy price. Free will was never the lesson taught in the story of Adam and Eve...as it never is in any “dictatorship” rule.

SLAYER69

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 10:01 AM

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reply to post by windsorblue

Great question

I try to have a more pragmatic view. The concept of original Sin is a myth created by those who wish to have you pander to their view and by doing so gives them power over you. A middle man between you and God.

If I recall correctly there was no middle man between God and Adam.

I believe in an Infinitive God but not into ~~politics, dogma or the man made construct of the middleman~~ I mean, Religion.

I don't need a Priest, Preacher, Rabbi or Mullah/hymen to run interference..

edit on 9-7-2013 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

TheRedneck

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 10:14 AM

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reply to post by toktaylor

I think you are forgetting the rest of the story and focusing only on the Tree of Knowledge part. There was no other choice that could be made in the garden that was forbidden. There was no future example of choice coming down the pike like there is today. Everything Adam and Eve wanted was theirs, except that one fruit.

Take away that one fruit, and there is nothing they could possibly do that would have rejected God. That would not be free will. It would be like telling the child, "Do whatever you want; I will stop you before you make a bad choice. I will protect you from any consequences." We see similar examples today of children who are allowed to "run wild" and whose parents go to great lengths to keep them out of trouble... it never works for very long and eventually winds up in a tragedy when they are finally faced with consequences their parents cannot erase.

It's easy for us to look at things in the context of this world we find ourselves in, but the true context in this case is the world Adam and Eve found themselves in. As I stated in my first post, God wanted someone who would choose to be with Him. If there was no way for Adam and Eve to choose to ignore God, there was no choice either way.

I should also point out that while Eve accepted the temptation to eat the forbidden fruit and Adam chose as well to follow Eve's example, the actual temptation was from the serpent. Thus God explained their curse to them, and placed His own specific curse on the serpent.

TheRedneck

windsorblue

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 10:22 AM

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reply to post by LABTECH767

Thank you for that, the image that you presented of a father figure showing his pain at being betrayed by unruly children does come across more palatable than the vengeful and malicious God indoctrinated to me through years of religious schooling....But if he can mistakes does not show he is infallible and not perfect as I have lead to believe?...somehow (to me) the thought of him (or her) as a parent who can make mistakes rearing children seems more comforting than an all knowing, all seeing omnipotent supreme super being.

TheRedneck

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 10:24 AM

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reply to post by SLAYER69

My friend, you have hit on the true conspiracy among religions.

There was no middleman needed between Adam and God. Adam could speak directly to God until he chose to reject God. After that, man could no longer communicate directly with God but needed a middleman. As a temporary measure, God used prophets and the chosen people to work through until He could implement a middleman that would allow for a personal relationship. That middleman's name is Jesus (Yeshua).

Once Jesus came, there was no more need for a middleman. Every priest, rabbi, preacher, minister, prophet, what-have-you that has come since is only a teacher, and is as flawed as any man. Yet, they crave the power the prophets of old had, and strive to continue that custom for their own personal greed, denying Jesus in the process with their actions while falsely praising Him with their tongue. That's why I, like you, refuse to accept the word or the religious leading of any "man of God."

I once heard a preacher say something I thought was very profound:

"The biggest hindrance God has to helping His children is religion."

TheRedneck

toktaylor

posted on Jul, 9 2013 @ 10:34 AM

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reply to post by TheRedneck

"story"...that right there sums up the Bible. As I stated previously...there is no reasoning or logic that can explain the bible, we may as well be arguing about the tooth fairy, santa clause and the the easter bunny....oh well at least I tried to impart some knowledge.