Schools Teaching Religious Fundamentalism Are Endangering Creative Thinking WORLD-WIDE

reply to post by wildtimes

Democracy and freedom does NOT take away your right to practice Islam. The PROBLEM is with you not realizing that!!! Be Muslim! No one cares! STOP hating on Westerners who don't want to participate!!!!!

I am a Muslim and i don't care what others see it as.
I wish it was true that westerners were ok with not participating and that was the end of it.

I am objecting to exporting democracy by force where people don't want it.
Secularism conflicts Islam, democracy may work but not the exact western democracy.

Also i would say what i want to say and i don't need to be censored or even told how i should reply.
I don't think i am breaking any rules on ATS and if i am, a moderator can contact me and tell me so.
I can reply in an agressive way. Right? Or you always want me to be like "no, no we muslims want peace, please help us O' Intellectual, progressive, self proclaimed enlightened people!"

reply to post by wildtimes

When Paki schools start teaching ALL religions, I'll relax. When Saudis allow 'evolution' to be taught in their schools, I'll relax. YOU YELLING AT US and telling us your "analysis" of our minds is NOT HELPING!!!

do you teach communism in your schools?

Schools in Pak teach about other religions, The Qur'an teaches about other Abrahamic religions and also urges muslims to respect all prophets and all holy books.

Evolution was included into education as a means to change the thinking of people in a certain way, it favours secularism as it supports idea of Godless universe.

Do you teach creationism along with evolution in your schools?

What would you say when i tell you that the example of natural selection in school "industrial melanism" was actually a fake and yet included in textbooks?

If everyone is trying to influence minds of kids then each parent has a duty to first find their own indoctrinations and then they have a right to protect kids from these influences.

What right do you have to judge a country/group/parents as bad if it/they refuses to teach evolution? Is studying that necessary to be a productive educated individual? The people can read about it when they are adults. Right?

The problem is that you are not starting from a neutral ground,
i have no objection to established factual sciences like mathametics, physics etc.
The problem is with opinions like history which can be used as tools of indoctrination.

Tell me why should a muslim agree with a history that says Osama or muslim terrorists were behind the 9/11 attack or 7/7 etc.
Isnt that an opinion being sneaked into textbooks as historical facts?

reply to post by logical7


My beliefs are based on fact and sound, rational judgement.

This isn't a thread about Muslim practices in general, if you want my opinion on that read my posts. It was a done topic recently and most people that participated have moved on from that rather heated thread.

If there were people believing the world as being created by pink elephants in flying saucers, then they can if they want IMO, as long as they don't expect others to believe the same, and if they think those that don't believe as being worthy of death, that is unacceptable.

If they started turning themselves into bomb carriers and sitting in public places intent on mass destruction of people and surroundings, that is beyond unacceptable. That makes them a global hazard and should be treated as such. Quarantine would be the order of the day, at least.

If you want a list if atrocities read Charles51's thread on it, I posted plenty of stats there. Including that of atrocities against their own kind, women and just people going about their day, who's villages were burned and their people killed for not believing in the same thing as they do.

It is a toxic belief system that allows very little freedom and is the worst sort of bullying imaginable, from the moment of birth, a child brought into such a belief system is told they must believe abc and nothing else, no room for free thinking or freedom of choice. So many restrictive rules, especially against women who have little choice in such belief systems.

Out education systems teaches free thinking. Sure it has it's areas that need improving and the current culture could use steering in the right tracks but at least people have much more rights, to walk, to drive, to talk, to live, to love, to marry, to think, to an education, to making their own choices etc.

In this day and age these freedoms are taken as natural rights in most of the world, the free world, who do not want antiquated slavery under a guise of belief, forced upon them, it is not how we do things. We moved on from outright religious control a long time ago.

Freedom of thought is something intrinsic in human nature.

Humanistic Psychology would probably assert that certain belief systems have turned against others, whilst it's impetus for validation is a perceived notion of 'doing the right thing according to their belief system', whilst the rest of the world see it as completely inhumane and the opposite of 'doing the right thing', because our beliefs are more towards individual and collective human rights, as opposed to the restriction of human rights according to whoever decided upon such impositions of certain belief systems.

www.simplypsychology.org...

A further assumption is then added - people are basically good, and have an innate need to make themselves and the world better. The humanistic approach emphasizes the personal worth of the individual, the centrality of human values, and the creative, active nature of human beings. The approach is optimistic and focuses on noble human capacity to overcome hardship, pain and despair.

[I am talking about the Evangelical Apocalyptic Jesus-Camp type people - and the Extremists in all religions who are NOT TEACHING things like evolution, open-minded cultural competence, and world studies!

Speaking of evolution would you please explain to me The Cambrian Explosion? Where did the core data cellular information come from to cause such an event? That caused such a Biodiversity of life on earth.

reply to post by theabsolutetruth

We moved on from outright religious control a long time ago.

and yet the reactionary ideology that got developed due to it is still controlling your behaviour and influencing your thoughts and making you assume that each religion must be the same.

Islam was exactly the opposite, there was progress, literacy, religious tolerance etc when it was being followed properly during the beginning few centuries and when people abandoned it and its principles they got stuck in oppressive monarchies and later dictatorships that lead to the problems that are seen now. Add to that the two WW, colonisations and the cold war of the giants and muslims getting involved and forced to choose a camp and we have the mess that we see right now!

How can you say that Islam is against education when all the knowledge you have in the West was possible because the muslims preserved and translated all the texts they came across into arabic, studied and developed it. The instrument used for tonsilectomy even now was designed by a muslim.
Here's a bit more

In the course of the ninth century, a translation movement sponsored by various sectors of society led to the translation into Arabic of most of the Greek scientific works, including a large number of Greek works of medicine and pharmacology. Many of the early translators were Syriac- speaking Christians who were able to deal with Greek manuscripts either directly or through intermediary Syriac translations. Illustrious scholars like Hunayn ibn Ishaq, his son Ishaq and his nephew Hubaysh produced highly refined, precise, and scientific translations of numerous Greek original works of science medicine. In addition to the major encyclopedic works produced by such scholars as al-Razi (Latin Rhazes, d. 925 AD) and Ibn Sina (Latin Avicenna, d. 1037 AD), whose works were translated into Latin as early as the twelfth century, and continued to be studied through the second half of the seventeenth century, the major Islamic discoveries and contributions to the field of medicine include: 1) The introduction of new fields of medical research and clinical practice such as maternity, gynecology, embryology, pediatrics, dietary medicine, public health, and psychic medicine. 2) The diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of many new diseases such as smallpox and measles. 3) The qualitative development of the field of pharmacology beyond the comparatively limited earlier state of knowledge. 4) In contrast to the Greek tradition which excluded it, Muslims incorporated surgery into the study of medicine, and developed its practice and techniques. 5) The structure and organization of modern hospitals follows patterns established as early as the ninth century. Islamic hospitals had open admission policies for patients of all economic background, and regardless
of sex, religion, or ethnicity. They were
run by large administrative staff and could accommodate as many as 8,000 patients. They were separated into different wards by sex and nature of illness. Moreover, hospitals had their own pharmacies and facilities in which medicines were prepared, and each hospital had its own apprenticeship program where students obtained practical experience under the guidance of a physician.

www.library.yale.edu/neareast/exhibitions/exhitmedicine.html

maybe now you will stop believing what you were assuming till now.
Islam does not forbid education, it makes it a religious duty and so promoting Islamic teachings also means promoting education.
You dont even have to believe it, just tell me IF what i say above is true then are you fine with muslims wanting to teach Islamic ideas to their kids?

Muslims know what they want, don't be so arrogant as to assume that muslims need to be saved from themselves!!

reply to post by logical7


Actually I didn't make any assumptions, you are creating a straw man argument that will hold no truck here.

If there are any assumptions being made it is those of your posts regarding my opinions and the things I said.

reply to post by theabsolutetruth

Freedom of thought is something intrinsic in human nature.

true but not freedom of action. It gets more restricted when you "choose" to be part of a group/society, "choose" to be a spouse, "choose" to be a parent etc.

our beliefs are more towards individual and collective human rights,

yes and thats the problem, extreme individualistic belief sprinkled with a shallow idea of human rights.
Tell me did anyone ask women what they want? Does your human rights consider the physiological and psychological differences between the sexes?
Women need security the most (financial and emotional) women are basically mothers and their priority is food and security for their babies and themselves. If they get that then they can reach up to their potential in other areas if they want to. If they don't get this security, they will sacrifice their own dreams and provide it themselves.
Does your human rights consider this? Or it just declares all are equal irrespective of gender! Now go and struggle for everything equally!!

What i see is that the women suffer the most under your belief of individualism and these shallow human rights.
The only thing people do is survive and wait for death and in the meantime have a hobby like spirituality. Its disheartening.

Education plays a very important role in forming the above mindset. Do you believe we are just material beings here by accident and just get born and die while the specie continues and progresses? If yes then you are free to believe that.

I and many others believe that we are spiritual beings with this world as just a transitionary phase and so obviously will have a different mindset/ideology that will be visible in the ideas and writings of our thinkers and will ultimately trickle down into education system, behaviour etc.

Some people have a materialistic mindset and try to graft some spirituality on it. I say good luck with that!

So now tell me, who decides what mindset should be taught? You?
How can anyone have the right to oppose or even question religious education of kids of someone else?

People want to put their kids in religious schools because they want to protect them from this Godless material indoctrination where the only truth is that which can be percieved by at least one of the senses! the rest is just pink elephants..

reply to post by logical7


Again these are straw man arguments.

Collective human rights in such things as right to a fair trial, a womans right for not being 'owned' by a man and under his every command. The right for children to be safe instead of made child brides, the right for women to express their emotions, for example in dance if they choose to without fear of death, the right for women to not need to cover themselves almost entirely even in the baking heat, the right to question that which they are told though have no proof of, the right to equality, the right to exercise their own intellect and intuition to form their own opinions on the beliefs they were taught, the right to choose whom one considers friend or worthy of life, the right to life even if they do not believe in the belief they were told to, the right for having a choice.

Originally posted by theabsolutetruth
reply to post by logical7

 

Again these are straw man arguments.

Collective human rights in such things as right to a fair trial, a womans right for not being 'owned' by a man and under his every command. The right for children to be safe instead of made child brides, the right for women to express their emotions, for example in dance if they choose to without fear of death, the right for women to not need to cover themselves almost entirely even in the baking heat, the right to question that which they are told though have no proof of, the right to equality, the right to exercise their own intellect and intuition to form their own opinions on the beliefs they were taught, the right to choose whom one considers friend or worthy of life, the right to life even if they do not believe in the belief they were told to, the right for having a choice.

oh i see, you mean the rights that the Western women got in the 20th century while muslim women are enjoying them from the 7th.
Muslim women dance and sing, just men don't get to see it.

You are complaining of straw man and yet making the same against Islam.
You are assuming what you see some muslims doing as Islam.

Tell me why are free, educated women in UK choosing Islam and covering etc?

Btw, the topic is education, you have made your narrow minded view about Islam in general very clear lets not waste our time on it anymore.

reply to post by logical7


Perhaps you should educate yourself on certain practices of certain belief systems before making assumptions on others opinions of them.

The second link is to an article written by a woman who was Muslim but isn't now. I would suggest you read it.

www.guardian.co.uk...

One impression that emerges strongly is the extremely violent temper of the times. Passions seemed to have run high in those days; there are accounts here of either rulers or troublemakers who have had molten silver poured into their ears and eyes, or had their tongue fed to cats, or been forced to watch their chopped-off limbs being roasted in an oven. Caliph al-Ma'mum in 833 inaugurated an annual springtime offensive against Byzantium; one has to feel for the inhabitants of that city whenever April rolled round and they saw the caliph's army on the horizon again.

www.secularism.org.uk...

My interview has triggered a debate in the Sudanese media, both at home and in the diaspora, from which campaigns have emerged inciting people against me calling me a 'Kafira' (infidel) and 'Murtadda' (left Islam) . I guess Sudanese government officials have time to watch Channel 4 because the Sudanese Armed Forces' Facebook page posted my picture declaring me an infidel and apostate. Who knew that my private beliefs could denigrate a country's government, religion, and armed forces?!

It is important that we secularists demand not only a secular Britain, but also a secular Middle East, North Africa, and world. Sharia as such is a law of a religion with state power in many regions around the world. We have also witnessed in the last two years a grand hijacking by Islamists of the achievements of civil society in the Middle East. Not only that, but here in Britain there are now 85 Sharia councils implementing Sharia law on the streets of London, Birmingham, Bradford and elsewhere.
It is important for me to clarify what I mean by Sharia. To be precise, I am discussing the laws and legislation which are already in practice in the UK and abroad, not theoretical or utopian ideas that only exist in the minds of those who defend and are usually in favour of Sharia. The examples below include Islamic laws in countries around the world that claim to be implementing Sharia — the right Sharia — and are legislated based on the main sources in Islam, the Quran and Hadith, and sometimes in Fatwas. What is clear from an anthropological perspective is that these interpretations are performed by those in power and as a result the application and punishments associated with Sharia vary dramatically around the world.

Sharia discriminates against women (and Muslim women specifically): compared to feminist victories elsewhere, women are still not considered equal in most Islamic settings. A woman's testimony is worthy half a man's in Islam. She gets half the inheritance of her male siblings; a woman's marriage contract is between her male guardian and her husband. A man can have four wives and divorce his wife by simple repudiation using the word "Talig", whereas a woman must give specific reasons, some of which are extremely difficult to prove. Child custody reverts to the father at a pre-set age, even if the father is abusive. Women who remarry lose custody of their children.

Sharia discriminates against children. Not only does it affect children when they are young, but the implications will last their entire life. Top of the list is child marriage. Under Sharia law, a girl is eligible for marriage as soon as a girl begins her first period. This makes it difficult to maintain a minimum age for girls to be married. Considering there were at least five cases recorded in the London Borough of Islington (including girls of only 9 years old), I wouldn't bother to count the number of child marriages in Islamic states where it is legal.
Other discrimination against children that must be considered is the lack of exposure to different ideas and thoughts. Children from an Islamic background are often taught to close their minds to new ideas and some are brought up to hate their Jewish, Christian and Hindu classmates, as well as any gay students in their class.
In addition to my own experiences at school in Sudan, one can grab any school curriculum from an Islamic state see how it restricts critical thinking and any questioning of religious doctrine. Evolutionary theory is banned from most educational systems in Islamic states, as it contradicts the creationist story in the Quran. Sudanese professor, Faroque Ahmed Ibrahim, stated in his open letter that teaching evolution at University of Khartoum was among the main reasons he was tortured and imprisoned by the Sudanese government. Moreover, little girls are often taught from birth that they are 'lesser' human beings, which results in lower self-esteem and lack of confidence later in life.

reply to post by theabsolutetruth


I don't understand how an apostate automatically gets the authority to speak about what islam/sharia is?

A site obviously promoting secularism gets hold of an ex muslim and put up an interview of her. What does that prove?

Would you put the same value to an interview of a muslim revert who will point to the degradation of values in UK and support Islam and sharia as better for her?

When ex muslims are your stars and source of information then its not really difficult to conclude that you are just looking for confirmation of you opinions.

I hope you are at least consistent and try and learn about christianity from ex-christians, atheism from ex-atheist etc
All the best

reply to post by logical7


There is plenty of proof of such actions, whether from 'apostates' or others.

I do not need to prove such things exist. The proof is reported all the time. Google 'sharia victims' and you will find plenty of proof. Are you advocating the violence against these victims?

www.familysecuritymatters.org...

www.thereligionofpeace.com...

reply to post by logical7

Also i would say what i want to say and i don't need to be censored or even told how i should reply.
I don't think i am breaking any rules on ATS and if i am, a moderator can contact me and tell me so.

I can certainly facilitate that if you keep it up.

You are to attack the POST, NOT THE POSTER. It is also inappropriate for you to assume you know what others believe or think BETTER THAN THEY DO.

I am objecting to exporting democracy by force where people don't want it.

Then go start your own country and mind your own business, and no one will bother you. It's when HUMAN RIGHTS are being ignored that "interventions" occur.

You have enough people who don't want democracy to start your own nation?? - GO FOR IT! As soon as you show the rest of the world how every person in your "country" is happy, healthy, properly EDUCATED in PRACTICAL matters - including Evolution, Archaeology, Paleontology, Biology, Anthropology, Political Science, Psychology, Human Development (in terms of an individual's life span), carbon dating and its derivatives, physics, astronomy, language arts, reading, writing, mathematics,history, civic studies, social studies, and EVERY ideology - and understands Secularism, Democracy, Communism, Socialism, Totalitarianism, Dictatorships, Tyranny, Corruption, Criminal Justice, ALL of the World Religions, and the REAL HORRORS OF WAR - THEN you can start telling the rest of us what failures we are.


Oh, wait! We already HAVE that here!

Yeah, boo on us educated, humanitarian people who want everyone to have those same freedoms to explore the world. :shk:

Oh Yeah; Hey!! Malala gave a speech yesterday - her 16th birthday. And she mentioned the 57 MILLION or so kids on this planet who have NO SCHOOLS TO GO TO and insisted they should NEVER be forgotten about. Did you catch that?

reply to post by logical7

I am a Muslim and i don't care what others see it as.

Well, you certainly don't seem to be "indifferent" as to what others see it as!! You seem hell-bent on telling us all we're wrong.

The article/blog by the Sudanese "apostate" has credibility because she LIVED IT. People will ALWAYS listen to a "former" person who has denounced the "system" in which they once lived. Look at Snowden - exposing the NSA for what it REALLY IS - and he's getting quite a bit of attention. He has a lot of credibility.

By the way, the more aggressive your posts are, and the more you talk about people willing to do whatever, even if it makes them terrorists ------ the more it makes it look like YOU YOURSELF would stoop to terrorist activities. Are YOU becoming a RADICALIZED ISLAMIST, logical7?

What motivates you to browbeat people on here and smear the West with false allegations (the common people -NOT the government) - insist you know us better than we know ourselves, and you "know what's good for us."??
How are you NOT doing the exact thing that YOU accuse us of?

Do we teach "communism" in our schools? YES, WE DO. Sorry if that pisses you off. You could always MOVE to a communist country, though - if you want to escape freedom. Or, to an Islamic state. What's stopping you? Go there!

Your true colors and character are really beginning to show through now. Just so you know. It ain't pretty.

ANY PERSON who has studied biology and physics and can say that "kids don't need to learn about evolution - they can read about it as adults," has some SERIOUS control issues and a skewed view of the real world.

reply to post by logical7

I don't understand how an apostate automatically gets the authority to speak about what islam/sharia is?

Because they know what they're talking about, and have rid themselves of the "shackles" that kept them silent.

You really OUGHT to read the article. She's calm, intelligent, caring, and articulate.

Focusing on Islam and Sharia as such here is mainly because of my experience living under an Islamic regime. However, I strongly oppose Sharia law as well as any other religious based laws because I deeply believe in secular, humanist values which put each human being on an equal basis with every other individual. International human rights are a testament to that principle and stand directly opposed to the discriminatory practices enshrined in and justified by Sharia law.

For me, my atheism holds this broader meaning because I am taking a political stand to oppose mythology and advocate for evidence-based science and critical thinking.

My stand is a way of supporting freedom of expression, freedom of religion or no-religion.

I stand, indeed, for human rights in order to support equal rights for all citizens despite our gender, age, sexuality, religion or ethnicity.

I believe this is everyone's battle, including progressive, secular and liberal Muslims.

The right to live, think and express freely your opinions is one of the great achievements of human civilization.

These values belong to all of us regardless of our background or geographical regions.

We cannot limit these achievements to 'western values' or 'cultural sensitivity'.

THERE IS EVERYTHING to RESPECT about this "apostate's" statements. It's a shame you automatically dismiss her as "yet another ....." what....liar? Smear campaigner? Exaggerator? Infidel? BILLIONS of people in the world AGREE with her. There would NOT BE infighting among Muslims themselves if you were all "on the same page." There would be no "uprisings" if people were satisfied in those war-torn countries.

Originally posted by theabsolutetruth
reply to post by logical7

 

There is plenty of proof of such actions, whether from 'apostates' or others.

I do not need to prove such things exist. The proof is reported all the time. Google 'sharia victims' and you will find plenty of proof. Are you advocating the violence against these victims?

www.familysecuritymatters.org...

www.thereligionofpeace.com...

there is plenty of counter proof that these actions are UNislamic and does not represent the teachings of Islam.

I am not denying the existence of such wrongs. I am questioning the interpretation of it in a way to malign Islam.

I am not advocating violence, i am however advocating an intellectually honest approach when looking at Islam/Sharia and not believing the negative propoganda blindly while being extremely skeptical of anything positive being show about it.

I object to the slow dehumanization of muslims and Islam where we are reaching a point when, a person in the west is told, "muslims sometimes eat their babies!"
the person would say, "maybe, who know what those muzzies do"

its already common to accept that most muslims beat their wives, rape their daugthers etc as Islam teaches it and the women are just waiting to be liberated by the western armies!! Really? Has it ever occured to you that these idiotic ideas could be false or you just accept them as when it comes to Islam and muslims its very possible as they are not really humans!!

Crime exist everywhere, how do you blindly associate criminal activity in muslim countries to be a product of Islam while at home you very clearly seperate the criminal activity.
If a lunatic claims to do something in the name of Islam you actually believe it without any critical thinking(by "you" i mean in general) so thats what it is, its as if the lunatics truly represent Islam and the billions of muslims don't know Islam.

The other part is that you expect and assume that each muslim must be following Islam to the letter and so each action should be representing Islam. Is this even remotely true? How about muslims also being humans and prone to stupidity and violence just like anyone else?
I see it as intellecutal dishonesty or simple stupidity to mix the above two and then paint Islam in a bad light.

Maybe you need basic Islamic education to really know what Islam teaches and then you will be able to seperate Islam and unislamic muslim actions.
An example, the ottomans had converted Aya Sofia in Turkey into a mosque, thats unislamic but if you don't know that Islam teaches to respect and even protect all places of worship then you will see that action negatively against Islam.

The same with many of your negative views and what the real teachings are, its just lack of education and big part played by the MSM to dehumanise the enemy to make it easy to get approval to attack and kill them!

Steering this back to EDUCATION:
The author of the article linked by theabsolutetruth (above) says THIS about education in MANY ISLAMIC STATES RIGHT NOW:

[Aside from child marriage, o]ther discrimination against children that must be considered is

the lack of exposure to different ideas and thoughts.

Children from an Islamic background are often taught to close their minds to new ideas and some are brought up to hate their Jewish, Christian and Hindu classmates, as well as any gay students in their class.

In addition to my own experiences at school in Sudan, one can grab any school curriculum from an Islamic state see how it restricts critical thinking and any questioning of religious doctrine.

Evolutionary theory is banned from most educational systems in Islamic states, as it contradicts the creationist story in the Quran.

Sudanese professor, Faroque Ahmed Ibrahim, stated in his open letter that teaching evolution at University of Khartoum was among the main reasons he was tortured and imprisoned by the Sudanese government.

And ESPECIALLY THIS:

Moreover, little girls are often taught from birth that they are 'lesser' human beings, which results in lower self-esteem and lack of confidence later in life. It is however, the case with most other faith-based schools and education including Christianity and Judaism which, sadly, have the same 'holy-centralised' ideology.

Perfect case in point ^^^^^.

reply to post by logical7


I prefer to base my opinions on fact and actual reports. Of which there are plenty.

Claiming Sharia as not really Islam or any other Islamic laws and practices as not real Islam isn't any excuse, it also isn't believable. Sharia is fundamentalist and Islamic.

www.answering-islam.org...

www.dailymail.co.uk... amily-honour.html

www.guardian.co.uk...

thediplomat.com...

www.libertiesalliance.org...

www.libertiesalliance.org...

Islamic tradition divides the world into two principal components, the House of Islam (Dar al Islam), and the House of War (Dar al Harb). The former is the Islamic world, and the latter is the land of the non-Muslims. This division is itself is provocative, divisive and encourages discrimination. The Dar al Harb is regarded as the House of War because it is expected that Islam will agitate in those areas in order to convert it to the House of Islam. Mechanisms that encourage sharia in that area are ones that are intended to facilitate that transformation. For this reason we separate our observatory based on these two components. The observatory will have separate sections for each component. Initiatives in Western countries that we believe will facilitate the spread of sharia into those areas will be highlighted in the Dar al Harb section. Sharia based human rights violation in the Islamic world will be highlighted in the Dar al Islam section.

reply to post by theabsolutetruth


Looks like you and I have browsed and heard stories in a similar manner (for me it was NPR - National Public Radio - that told me about Malala's speech, but thanks for linking the article! )

I predict that logical7 will tell you those are ALL negative smear campaign stories and sites - and chastise you for having read and taken them as significant, important, or real. We'll see, though. I'm DOUBLY glad now that you've independently come to the same 'perspective' that I have - and joined in the thread.

...I honestly don't know what to believe, although I'm assured by Muslims here on ATS that those sites "don't" actually represent or truthfully desribe "real Islam". That they are propaganda to incite people to want to "squash" Islam.

It has been my conclusion that there IS no method for us to determine which Muslims are "real" and which are "not real" aside from anecdotal descriptions. That bugs me, a lot, but I guess there's nothing to be done except watch. The atrocities are undeniably going on.

Quality Education For All is one of my main "crusades".