On the Christian anti-patriot movement & the Fluidity of Religious Belief

Originally posted by charles1952
dear wildtimes,

I hope I'm not drifting too far from your topic, but I'd like to offer a thought on war and violence.

I believe that well over 99.9999% of the world thinks war is bad. The question seems to be whether it is ever necessary. Surgery is bad, but it is sometimes necessary to suffer the pain to avoid a worse situation. I understand that delivering a child is really painful, and pain is bad, but it is necessary to achieve a good end, the new life.

Is war and violence ever justified? I won't bore you with the arguments you've heard before, but from what I've seen of your comments in some religious threads, you'd fight like a maniac if anyone tried to invade the US and impose Sharia.

The question seems to be not whether war is justified, but when. Are we together so far?

With respect,
Charles1952

You are right war is bad. But I don't think the question is whether or not war is sometimes justified. The question should be has the United States fought a justified war since WW2. Not only the last justifiable war in modern memory, but the last one the majority of the modern world tried to avoid altogether. For the US this should be a no brainer, especially when it pertains to who we are diplomatically and economically close to. We should not be doing business on any level with those nations that demonstrate they do not value the things we are supposed to value. We have turned ourselves into the very things we are supposed to despise so we can have cheap gas and cheap manufactured goods. You are who you hang with.

Wow, everyone, THANKS for your comments! As for those who've made posts in which they've asked if I "mind" - of COURSE I don't mind! Brilliant discussion so far!!

Carry on, I'm reading along. .... So far you all are going great without my constant interjection!
Good morning

One thought - we have several members of each gender here -
do you think there's a basic difference between men and women when it comes to aggression/war attitudes?

I do. I think women generally would just grab the kids and run - and men would tell them to run and do the fighting themselves...I think that's basic human nature -
so, in reading through the posts here, I see that there are men responding who are NOT promoting aggression - which is great. I'm glad to see that.

Going back to the evangelical Christian Zionist attitude (John Hagee's fan club, for example) - who are the ones who wanted to bomb Iran or Syria or anything that would "pick a fight" to support Israel ---- with the gender difference in mind ---- how are women so easily influenced into believing war is a good idea by people like him?

I don't get it. We also have a mix of "religiosities" participating here - which is good as well - what do you think would happen if John Hagee AND the Pope -- not just Mennonites and other Anabaptists and the youthful idealists like myself (shout out to the member who grew up in the 70s - there are a bunch of us in that category) started talking about peace, care for the poor, and the same generally Jesus-like "liberal" ideas?

HOW MANY GENERATIONS will it take for the "youths" to finally pull it off??
They're certainly making a fuss in Egypt - OWS was largely youths here as well -
yet they get so little credit. I understand that - I was very disappointed when I was in my mid 20s and thought I "had great ideas" -- and it was discouraging when older people disrespected that. Well, now I'm the parent of two youths in their 20s, and I admit right now that I DO IT, TOO - tell youths that "someday they will realize....."

But, again, the YOUTHS are the ones enlisting and going over there to participate in the slaughtering and destruction.....how does that happen???? I know, they get 'college', 'benefits,' 'pay', learning a skill, etc.....
bribery.

Just rambling thoughts. Still drinking tea - carry on.

reply to post by wildtimes
I think we will have to wait for the generation of our great grandchildren to see any change, and only if we start shouting for peace, love and care of the poor at the top of our lungs right now and don't stop until we go to the grave. The current younger generation has some good people, but they are far outnumbered by those addicted to 'instant gratification" who only jump on board with a good cause if it's trending on Facebook and Twitter, quickly jumping off the bandwagon as soon as the next big trend comes along (usually in less than two weeks).

Our best hope lies in the children of the grandchildren that many of us are raising now. We have learned from the mistakes we made with our children and are utilizing that knowledge in teaching our grandchildren- who will in turn teach their children. When that generation grows up they will have the ability to change the world, but unfortunately most of us won't still be around to witness it.

reply to post by littled16


le sigh.
Did you guys see this thread in Fragile Earth?
"Warriors Of The Rainbow" There is only one human tribe, one earth.
It's beautiful. The thread, and the Earth.

this post is all about you, isn't it? Had to stop reading a few paragraphs into it because of all the "I" statements.

Just a suggestion - when writing these things, take a look back and see if you can remove most of the "I" statements and see how much better of a response you get. It's all about ego.

reply to post by ninepointfive


No, it's not. I give my opinions - as we are encouraged to do when making new threads.
If you have no opinions, why bother posting at all?

It's all about denying ignorance. Move along then, if you don't like it. I don't need your "suggestions" or "critique", thanks.

Originally posted by wildtimes
One thought - we have several members of each gender here -
do you think there's a basic difference between men and women when it comes to aggression/war attitudes?

I do.

I have heard this, but I think that history shows a different story.

Now, what I think happens is that the culture defines the roles of the sexes, and they naturally balance out. But, when the paradigm shifts, it seems women are just as capable of extraordinarily violent acts as men.

We have also had youth for a very long time.. all of history in fact! I am not sure they have the experience or perspective to really understand things, but we have a system that is set up to make indentured servants through everything from propaganda to student loans. Once they get the experience and perspective, they are already servants of the system.

That said, if we can make a change to the education system, it might nurture the type of growth that will truly help all of mankind. In many ways, education is more linked to indoctrination than it is to learning. We do not even teach our children how to properly question things (the scientific method) until much later in education.

I think that changing the primary school years (grades 1~5) should be focused on exploration based in the scientific method. We give them a basis to explore the world, but then we just tell them to explore and bring their "findings" back to the class for peer review at certain time periods. I think this would not only be a better foundation for further learning, but would make a much, much more engaging system for both teachers and students. There is a lot more to the idea, but thats the basics.

Overall, the concept is to consciously write our cultural story instead of just going with what we know. I have said it before, but why arent we approaching these things with the scientific method? The only people it benefits is those who are already vastly wealthy. Even then, a society which consciously explores the best way to work would lead to a better life for everyone, even including those who profit the most from the current system.

reply to post by ninepointfive

Just a suggestion - when writing these things, take a look back and see if you can remove most of the "I" statements and see how much better of a response you get. It's all about ego.

Do you want a shock? Read my version of the 10 Commandments.

I have noticed that I am a human living among humans, therefore as far as is practical;

1) I shall.....

The thing is this: Ethics should not be a matter of one person telling another person what to do. Ethics is a person doing what is right from a self based perception of how best to interact with others and with the environment for peace and sustainability.

Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by wildtimes

 

As usual, a provocative and hard hitting thread. No one can ever accuse you of shying away from the hard questions.

S&F

For my two cents. When was the last time You, myself, or Charles declared war on another nation? Let me answer that for you. Never.

War is declared by those who sit in the seats of power. Not by the average citizen.
My point being, support for war is garnered by our own government using propaganda and deception. How many times have we, the American people found out later, we were deceived into supporting a war, or an action, that was unjust, and uncalled for? Making those among us who supported that war or action, complicit.

I have said this before, and I'll say it again. The American people MUST withdraw their support for this government. Every time we vote, pay taxes, allow another piece of legislation to pass unchallenged, or sit back as a people, and allow our servants in Washed up DC to do as they damn well please, without regard for the American public, we give them our support. They are unchallenged, and therefore have explicit permission and support from us, as a people, to continue in the path they have taken this country.

War is profitable and expedient for those in the ruling class. Never for the common man/woman.

edit on 7/8/2013 by Klassified because: (no reason given)

Awesome comment Klassified but the real power is behind the curtain. The money!
They control everything, government, media, resources and have influence around the world in every
country where there is a central bank!
Even if we stopped supporting the puppets in power we would have a real hard time ousting the powers
behind the curtain!
I believe we need to stop supporting these people by not participating in their system!
The biggest problem we have is in uniting the peasants whom are distracted and divided by the disinformation
coming from media, religion and the scientific community! These factions are used to divide us by nefarious means! They promote the ideas that there is not enough food, space and resources for everyone!
They promote and demonize certain groups like the gays, minorities and immigrants!
They demoralize through Ideological subversion promoting decadence! Then we have the intelligence communities creating dissent and starting wars through false bravado and patriotic ideals!
A great man once said ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
As long as there are a great many Americans whom believe this great lie we will never break the fiat chains which enslave us!
Truth is relative to the perspective of ignorance! Which means nothing is absolute and only seems truthful from our own perspective but this is a deceptive illusion so beware what you hold true!

reply to post by wildtimes


okay what religious beliefs are hoping for war? I don't have a problem with what you are saying but the last time i was in church or have been around religious people I have never heard them clamoring for war.

reply to post by nosacrificenofreedom

Well said. Wish I could give you more than one star for that post.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

One of my favorite quotes.

reply to post by votan


I think perhaps she's mentioning the John Hagee types that think we should go to war to defend Israel. Some sort of diving imperative. Those types.

reply to post by wildtimes


Ive asked 10 people what the 4th of july is about.
Guess what?
Nobody has a clue.
No wonder we are screwed.

Thank GOD for HIS WORD,eternal WORD!==2 preach the Word; be instant in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering an Timothy 4:2-4doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts.

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned toward fables.

Russian Mennonites formed militias during World War I . They were raided by anarchist groups and the red and white armies because they were seen as affluent and most assuredly "pushovers" . They did not keep their "Independence" for very long.

“War is not ‘the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you.” – G.K. Chesterton ILN, 7/24/15

reply to post by GISMYS

Welcome new member.

Are you implying that the Mennonites have false doctrine? Do you know their history?

Munster Rebellion
The Batenburgers under Jan van Batenburg preserved the violent millennialist stream of Anabaptism seen at Münster. They were polygamous and believed force was justified against anyone not in their sect. Their movement went underground after the suppression of the Münster Rebellion, with members posing as Catholics or Lutherans as necessary. Some nonresistant Anabaptists found leaders in Menno Simons and the brothers Obbe and Dirk Philips, Dutch Anabaptist leaders who repudiated the distinctive doctrines of the Münster Anabaptists. This group eventually became known as the Mennonites after Simons. They rejected any use of violence, preached a faith based on love of enemy and compassion.

Cages of the leaders of the Münster Rebellion at the steeple of St. Lambert's Church.

To quote Col Quaritch in the movie Avatar

Col. Quaritch: [addressing marines]
Everyone on this base, every one of you, is fighting for survival, and that's a fact. There's an aboriginal horde out there massing for an attack. These orbital images tell me that the hostile numbers have gone from a few hundred, to well over two thousand in one day. And more are pourin' in. In a week's time there could be 20,000 of 'em. At that point they will overrun our perimeter. That's not gonna happen. Our only security lies in preemptive attack. We will fight terror with terror. The hostiles believe that this mountain territory is protected by their... deity. And when we destroy it, we will blast a crater in their racial memory so deep, that they won't come within 1,000 klicks of this place ever again. And that, too, is a fact.

The Mennonites had a crater blasted into their memory, Munster! That's a pretty good history lesson from which to learn that violence is counter productive. Wouldn't you say?

reply to post by KeliOnyx

Dear KeliOnyx,

I didn't catch your idea at first, but I knew I had to come back to your post.

For the US this should be a no brainer, especially when it pertains to who we are diplomatically and economically close to. We should not be doing business on any level with those nations that demonstrate they do not value the things we are supposed to value. We have turned ourselves into the very things we are supposed to despise so we can have cheap gas and cheap manufactured goods. You are who you hang with.

What would you think of this idea, just as a start? Pull out of the UN and set up a new organization. The members would be required to have freedom of the press and speech, fair and effective means for changing governments without violence, and throw in a couple of more freedoms. If you're a tyrant, you don't get in.

This group then takes as a goal, the spreading of these freedoms where they do not exist, and the protection of them where they do.

I believe this group would have the freer, more wealthy and advanced nations, and it might be seen as an international status symbol to belong. Those nations would help strengthen and protect each other, realizing that freedom can't afford to lose any more ground. It would also be a less divided group than the UN, which really has no belief uniting the members

Sound good?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by wildtimes


Hi,
I'm a Zionist Christian Evangelical Potential Terrorist Right-Wing Exremist.....and as a ZCEPTRWE I don't like war and don't want any more wars

Originally posted by wildtimes
Mourn on the Fourth of July: Inside the Christian anti-patriot movement
By David R. Wheeler, special to CNN

(CNN) - Like many congregations, The Mennonite Worker Community of Minneapolis held a worship service and picnic this Fourth of July - but instead of extolling the virtues of America, they called attention to its faults.

The annual service is “a sort of anti-patriotic holiday,” says Mark Van Steenwyk, whose community focuses on simplicity, prayer and peacemaking. Singing “The Star-Spangled Banner” is out. Reflecting on the contradictions between the gospel and the American Dream are in.

“We thank you, O God, for the good things we enjoy in our lives," reads a prayer the Mennonite community recites each year, "but lament that our abundance has brought destitution to sisters and brothers throughout the Earth.”

*snip*
Nowadays there are Zionist Christian Evangelicals screeching for WAR - HOPING for the Apocalypse and destruction of OTHER PEOPLE and their countries. This is APPALLING.
*snip*

Where is the link for the second claim? Assuming you can support this, what does it have to do with a group of Mennonites?

As for the "fluidity of religious belief", that's not complicated. If a person does, in fact, change what they state they believe, it isn't wrong for those that still believe to point this out.