"Why aren't the moderates protesting the violent extremists?"

reply to post by mamabeth

How about you try me on for size? You really don't want my honest
opinion of islam!

Yeah, Sk0rp - bait someone else for a change. I've done my best with you. You haven't changed my mind about anything; I know there are moderate people all over the place who don't cause trouble.

Did you see the thread by stumason here? In the UK, 500 Imams are going to give the same "speech" (sermon?) to their congretations. That's only 1/3 of the Imams there (1500 mosques) - who intend to speak out AGAINST the backward attitudes of fundamental, extreme Islamists who are abusing British white women with impunity.

Or did you see the one I said I was going to make about education? In many countries all over the world, the fundamentalists are indoctrinating KIDS into these extreme religious mindsets - JEWS, CHRISTIANS, and MUSLIMS, all of them. It's up now, here. Feel free to chime in.

EDUCATION is lacking. THAT is the problem.

Under what obligation are anybody who happen to share religious beliefs supposed to protest those who do not act as they do?

The USA is engaged in a never-ending war against Muslims started over the most spurious of reasons (Invading countries and shooting missiles into others due to the alleged but unproven actions of 19 individuals). Iraq was invaded over proven lies on WMDs. As a result Muslims have every reason to be skeptical on the threat they allegedly pose.

Protesting against these alleged extremists won't stop the USA and its allies onslaught upon the Middle East and will only serve to bolster Global War on Terror supporters who would use such protests to claim Muslims support the war waged upon them.

And if we're going after moderates in Islam, why not Christianity? Where are the Christian protests against their extremists members who would assault and kill doctors who provide abortion services and bomb their clinics? Where are the Christian protests against the myriad of anti-LGBT assaults and murders?

reply to post by FlyersFan

No planes crashing into buildings, just bombs and missiles
www.guardian.co.uk... [/url]ct/07/iraq.usa

reply to post by wildtimes

Yeah, Sk0rp - bait someone else for a change. I've done my best with you. You haven't changed my mind about anything; I know there are moderate people all over the place who don't cause trouble.

What baiting? User Mamabeth ignores all the links I posted in the OP and asks me what I'm talking about. How about clicking the damn links for a change? I'm sure you skipped the links as well, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Very well, I can just as well ignore users who skip the meat and potatoes part of my threads.

Secondly, you say you know there are moderate people all over the place. Thats fine.... but you have in other threads posed the question as to why the moderates aren't taking any action against the extremists. This thread addresses that.

EDUCATION is lacking. THAT is the problem.

This pretty much confirms that you have indeed glossed over the OP.
I already stated
"Common sense, when applied, shows that religiously motivated violence is not exclusively rooted in religion, but rather an unfortunate by-product of multiple overlapping factors such as low living standards, lack of education, political unrest, civil conflict, war, ethnic divides and so on. "

So you took people to task for not reading your posts. So let me outline your OP here:

I. Islam moderates are justifiably apathetic about evil done in their religion’s name because:

a. Tu quoque paradigma – I can find terrible things done by Christians

b. Tu quoque sunergio – Moderates in Christianity don’t do anything either

c. Appeal to motive - Highlighting negatives to conclude a certain religion is barbaric only reveals a biased mindset.

II. "We see that such barbarism almost always occurs in cultures living in third world countries plagued by poverty and illiteracy / torn by conflict or both."

So, let’s take a look at the overriding guiding factor in these “third world countries plagued by poverty and illiteracy / torn by conflict or both”

Islam is the single greatest guiding influence in the vast majority of the 70 poorest and most violent countries on the face of the planet; and were it not for the Export of Crude Oil, Islam would preside over a crumbling ruin of humanity, almost exclusively. Military activity appears to be the majority of the "all other" economic activity in the graphic below. It is almost de rigueur for me to tour countries wallowing in poverty, featuring ubiquitous multi-million dollar mosques and hordes of uniformed soldiers, yet NO hospitals/universities and bearing a 35%+ teen pregnancy rate, barter of women as property, and/or no women's clinics, etc.. For fairness and conservancy, the top ten European countries and the US have been removed from the below data summary:


Further then let's examine the level of corruption profiled by the major religious groupings worldwide, by the Global Coalition Against Corruption. Islamic countries rule the listing of top corruption practice nations on the globe, and despite trends indicating secular nations heeding the call to ethical business and governance practices, with a significant drop over the last 40 years, Islamic countries have not followed in kind.


The simple fact is, that this is not the fault of Secular, Other Religion or Christian countries. This odious set of statistics is allowed to perpetuate by none other than the leaders of Islam worldwide, and is excused by the very list of reasons which you rattle off in your OP.

No, it is not a 'biased mindset' to hold the leadership of Islam accountable for the misery it perpetuates on mankind. Moreover, it is not hypocritical to do so singularly at the exclusion of other relgions/sects. Islam's co-inhabitants on this planet have every right to demand change from this religion. Islam's co-inhabitants on this planet have every right to take Islamic moderates to task for not doing enough inside their own religion to stop this global juggernaut of suffering.

The excuses you have posted are infamous logic fallacies, and your counter-premise just does not hold water.

What a great thread. Perhaps a little bit inflammatory, but that's what makes users want to read it, I suppose.

I'll add in that, from personal experience, the Religion of Islam could be considered as not a bad thing. The leadership of Islam, could, however, be considered as a bad thing. The same could be said of Catholicism. I personally know a few Catholics who do not agree on many instances with the decisions of the Vatican.
I am personally interested in learning about Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism. I classify myself as none of the above, however, I am religious, but my religion is important to me only, and since my religion does not have much of a 'leadership' in the same sense as does Islam and Catholicism, I am not worried about what the 'leaders' of my religion are discussing about.
I see a lot of hatred for Islam. This makes me very sad because much of my family associates themselves with that particular religion. They are all very good people, very kind and very caring. I see a lot of hatred for Christianity and Catholicism, this makes me sad, as my extended family is Catholic. They too are very good people, very kind and very caring. I do not see much hatred for Buddhism. This makes me happy, because the philosophies which can be found in Buddhism can be considered as important tools for realizing ones true self. It also makes me sad, because both of the religions, Islam and Christianity/Catholicism are also very helpful tools for realizing ones true self.

We can go on a fact-finding mission and find things to slate this religion and promote that religion, and we can promote hatred towards a religion, and tolerance to another. We can do this by Google. We can do this by statistics. We can do this by historical analysis of events which have already passed. The OP nicely states how we can view Islam as a destructive religion as much as we can view Christianity as a destructive religion. But, I believe that we can, instead of going out and finding facts to support our personal, subjective views, that we can look beyond our lenses which colour the entire world violent, and find that, embedded into the core of these religions, Islam and Christianity, is a message of Love...

Now, I know some of you are already scurrying to the Qoran or Bible to find specific verses which 'clearly' promote intolerance and hatred, and to you, I applaud your intellect, and I think that your skill sets are indeed very valuable as a tool for dissecting and understanding the true meaning of religion - not just Islam or Christianity, but the core values and teachings which makes these religions what they are. Look not for messages of violence, intolerance and hatred, look instead for messages of love, unity and harmony. You will find it, as have many others, as have I.

Thank you all for an interesting thread,
O.G.R.E

reply to post by TheEthicalSkeptic

That is a very odd way of grouping information, and some of what you said is totally untrue.
For example, I looked at a list of the 70 poorest countries in the world, and only 17 were predominantly muslim. In fact, the majority of them were Christian countries in Africa. And the list included Afghanistan and Iraq, currently in or recovering from war, and Gaza and the West Bank (not really a country, and seriously can't be expected not to be poor).

I also tried looking up a list of "most violent countries", but that is a bit of a vague definition. The UNODC did a study on the "intentional homicide rate" (number intentionally killed per 100,000 of the population) categorised by country and it seems the vast majority of that list is populated by (Christian) South and Central American countries. The muslim country with the highest IHR (at 25th most violent) is Sudan. Next at 36th is the former Soviet country of Kyrgyzstan.

The fact of the matter is, if one is talking about muslims, most muslims DO speak out and condemn violent extremists. The idea of a silent majority enabling the violent minority is a total myth. This topic has been covered loads of time here on ATS. I myself regularly have to requote an old post of mine that show thousands of muslim religious leaders and muslim organisations speaking out against violent extremists.

But sk0rpi0ns point isn't invalid. Why should all muslims be held accountable ("Why aren't you protesting the violent extremists, you muslim?!") for the actions of another group of unrelated people somewhere else who happen to claim to share their faith? Is a random christian here on ATS accountable for all the crimes of Christians everywhere? Is a random christian necessitated into having to vocally or physically show condemnation for acts of violent extremists who also claim to be christian?
Or hindu, or buddhist or black or white or asian or republican or democrat or conservative or liberal, etc. etc. etc.?
No, of course not. That is just stupid.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


For your information pal,I happen to have a life outside of ATS that
keeps me pretty busy.
Besides,it is not politically correct to post anything NEGATIVE about
a certain,PROTECTED,religious organization,their feelings might get hurt
or insulted!

Actually that's a good point and thread.
Say, out of 3 billion Muslims only a minority are extremists.

Recently I've noticed that the old term "Christian fundamentalist" is not longer politically correct, they now prefer "Evangelical Christian", and I think that's purely a propaganda convention.

Some academics, of course, see the rise of fundamentalism in religions as parallel.
I suppose the rise of fundamentalism in one religion is then copied by another as a defense mechanism.

I don't think we even have to stop with Christianity or Islam here, there are similar movements in Hinduism and Buddhism.

But what is fundamentalism?
Not easy to answer simply, but significantly it has something to do with going back to some imagined mythical past, when people lived "purely" and followed the scriptures "literally".
Frankly, a past that never existed.

As for Islam, I'm astounded at the gay and lesbian sub-culture and narrative that does exist, because most Westerners think every gay person has their head chopped off amongst Muslims!

My main gripe is with Islamists and real fundamentalists, and clearly they do exist.

However I have seen documentaries that are forms of resistance that even warn the West about radical Islamism.
And yes, other faiths are far too defensive about their fundamentalists.

They might not use terror at the moment (maybe some small cults), but they support state violence, even when this amounts to terror.
I don't think either of that is right, and no religion should support violence.

That being said, unfortunately Islamism is most upfront about banning democracy and what would amount to a reign of terror if given power.
Every time I hear them rant about the "kuffar" or "kaffir" I just want to cringe.
I will never submit to that.

So you would have Christians protesting assumed Christians acting contrary to the bible in Africa

As opposed to paedophile priests and greedy tv ministries, WBC closer to home.
Also as an aside, Christians are called to help others, not fight others.
A mistake even I have made

Christianity is fundamentally a teaching of love not protest.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I've read ALL of your links - before you posted them. They aren't "new", and I have addressed them multiple times. Do you think you're the first person to come across them?

You said that I was your intended "reader" for this thread, and I have stated my case to you and others MANY TIMES right here. Via babloyi, logical7, links and sources found independently and also provided by other Muslim members, I have come to see that there IS no central leadership in Islam....and no licensure or oversight of those who self-style themselves as such.
Same problem with Evangelical "Pastors" who learned ONLY at proselytizing, narrowly focused schools, not at general education or quality schools. There are MANY former seminarians, pastors, etc. on ATS who have stated that once the realized the REAL DEAL in their 'religious leadership training' or experience, they left.

Why don't you address the point that said that 500 Imams in the UK are going to denounce the atrocities with the same sermon - but 1,000 of them are NOT?

You started the thread just to show how others don't speak up in other religions, too? I'd have thought by now you'd recognize the "debate fail" of tossing out ad hominem attacks on members, or deflecting with the "finger pointing" of saying "well, THEY DO IT TOO!" or "They did it first!....so you can't blame US!"

For crying out loud, Sk0rp - I guess maybe you didn't think the thread all the way through. Or maybe you just don't understand how to back up your points with civil debate. Thanks for your efforts, though, I've pretty much figured out WHY they don't (the moderates protesting, that is). Doesn't change the fact that extremists ARE doing horrible things -

which makes ALL people who follow the same "faith" but don't do the same reprehensible things open for questioning. Pope Francis is doing a STELLAR job of orchestrating the reform of the Vatican - too bad there's no Imam or Mullah stepping up to the spotlight like he is doing....
or if there are, they don't get much attention.

Still, only 1/3 of the Imams in the UK are going to speak to their 'flocks' about the wrongness of the murders, rapes, assaults, etc. of THE TINY MINORITY of Muslims that DO THESE THINGS?

Besides that, I've recently learned that extreme Islam is taught in Pakistani state-run schools - so - those folks who are going to England as refugees have arrived there with a completely different worldview than people raised in "the West" have - and it is incumbent on them (the immigrants) to honor the civil and standard behavioral codes of their HOST COUNTRIES.

reply to post by wildtimes

too bad there's no Imam or Mullah stepping up to the spotlight like he is doing....
or if there are, they don't get much attention.

Or the attention they get is very negative, as in, killed or almost killed. See about 2:20 in the video.

Nobel Peace Prize laurete, Mairead Maguire tells her account of her visit to Syria. While Maguire was in Syria she discovered that the people the U.S. are funding are violent groups and do not want peace in Syria. Her her view is that Syria is being used as a proxy war by the U.S., Great Britain, Saudi Arabia and Katar.

reply to post by pthena


Yep, it's true - the USA JSOC (Joint Special Operations Command) is undermining legal process, oversight, and "rules of engagement" in a big, huge way.
Jeremy Scahill wrote a book about it, and there's a documentary of the story available also: Dirty Wars

I've mentioned it many times - don't know if any other members have picked it up, but I know WanDash watched the documentary on Pay Per View - and it's circulating at small theatres. See the link for more information.

The US Administration's hands are COVERED IN BLOOD at this point - unbelievably and irrefutably so - but they are being exposed for what they are doing now. Finally. Yay.

In Dirty Wars: The World Is a Battlefield, Jeremy Scahill, author of the New York Times bestseller Blackwater: The World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army, takes us inside America’s new covert wars. The foot soldiers in these battles operate globally and inside the United States with orders from the White House to do whatever is necessary to hunt down, capture, or kill individuals designated by the president as enemies.

Drawn from the ranks of the Navy SEALs, Delta Force, former Blackwater and other private security contractors, the CIA’s Special Activities Division, and the Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC), these elite soldiers operate worldwide, with thousands of secret commandos working in more than one hundred countries. Funded through “black budgets,” Special Operations Forces conduct missions in denied areas, engage in targeted killings, snatch and grab individuals, and direct drone, AC-130, and cruise missile strikes. While the Bush administration deployed these ghost militias, President Barack Obama has expanded their operations and given them new scope and legitimacy.

Dirty Wars follows the consequences of the declaration that “the world is a battlefield,” as Scahill uncovers the most important foreign policy story of our time. From Afghanistan to Yemen, Somalia, and beyond, Scahill reports from the frontlines in this high-stakes investigation and explores the depths of America’s global killing machine.

Scahill/Snowden for USA White House, 2016NOW !!!

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

This pretty much confirms that you have indeed glossed over the OP.
I already stated
"Common sense, when applied, shows that religiously motivated violence is not exclusively rooted in religion, but rather an unfortunate by-product of multiple overlapping factors such as low living standards, lack of education, political unrest, civil conflict, war, ethnic divides and so on. "

You need to stop implying that I 'glossed over' anything. This conversation has been ongoing for months now - and I've pretty much left it behind as "solved: inconclusive".

I saw that you said the multiple overlapping factors are the root cause. Why are you arguing with me over this AGAIN? We have ALL agreed that education is a primary factor, stress is another, and all of the other things you mentioned. What do you want me to say? I agreed with you, Sk0rpion! STOP trying to defame my character, PLEASE! :shk:

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


There is hundreds of muslims dying every day in fight against terrorists, just for example in Syria. Ignorant.

reply to post by wildtimes

there IS no central leadership in Islam....and no licensure or oversight of those who self-style themselves as such.

The Saudi Royals have taken the leadership of Islam. They are supported by U.S., Israel, UK, etc. as being in that position. The wars are against Shia, Middle East Christianity, and anything non-Jewish in Greater Israel, and non-Saudi version Islam in the Muslim countries. Plain and simple.

As for why moderates don't protest: they can't without undermining their own moderate beliefs. Even if a Christian wants to be liberal and moderate, he/she still gets the Christ/Messiah concept from the Old Testament. The Old Testament flat out commands violence. To condemn violence is to condemn the Old Testament and its deity. Liberal/Moderate Christians fear to blaspheme the deity they think of as their god.

There are Ultra-Orthodox Jews who are anti-Zionist/anti-violence. Here's their secret: they believe that the wicked atheist and secular Jews will dirty themselves with all the killing and bloodshed to win the land, and then the deity will just turn it over to the righteous who did no killing. It's kind of like Jesus saying, "the meek shall inherit the Earth."

The three Abrahamic faiths all endorse the Torah (violence for the deity). They all endorse some deity riding to the rescue. Moderates don't want to blaspheme.

It is blasphemy to say, "We are the only hope for peace. We are the highest deity who can be called upon to ensure a future." That's why moderates are stuck. Only blasphemy can help us a now.

You know, when I was not a member of this website and was just reading the posts... you all appeared to me so civil and kind to each other.

Perhaps I made a mistake in signing up here. Why can we not have a discussion about these sorts of sensitive topics without resorting to what amounts to no more than petty name-calling and mud-slinging? I have very strong opinions on various subjects, but I definitely do not have that strong of an opinion as to undermine the opinion of some body else.

These are not topics in which there can be one clear-cut answer which is the irrefutable truth. There are many sides, and many factors that go into the choices that people make about what they want to believe, we cannot... I mean, we should not, call others ignorant simply because they hold an opinion different to ours. I absolutely love Islam. I can fully understand, however, why some despise it altogether. And, I don't say that simply because "well they are just ignorant people who believe all propaganda!". That is a gross simplification of the amount of thought and effort these people put into their belief. They have good reasons to believe what they believe... and though I don't agree with them in the slightest, does not mean that we can not get along.

My father is a Muslim, and so is my grand-father. I know you anti-Islamists do not hate my father, nor my grand-father. I understand that you only dislike the fact that there is blood being spilled in the name of Allah, for the sake of Islam. But understand also this, neither my father nor my grand-father, has ever spilled any blood, for any reason, not even Allah. I can see why you have such strong feelings for these people who call themselves Muslim, and I'm sure that if you tried, you too can see why these Muslim "Extremists" have such strong feelings against the Western world. That does not justify what they do, nor does their actions justify what the Western world is doing. It is a vicious cycle indeed, of hatred, tyranny and greed which is being seemingly endlessly perpetuated not by just one side, but both (and perhaps even other parties not mentioned in these discussions).

Peace,
/_\.G.R.E

reply to post by 3OGRE3


Thanks for joining. You seem to have a clear understanding of the problem.

As for "kindness and civility" - we do our best. Hang around for awhile and you'll get the hang of who's who and what their 'established' differences are. This is one of the more "hot" forums in terms of wounded sensibilities and emotions, often leading to frustration and disagreement, and you'll need a thick skin to cope. But don't leave just yet!!! We'll be kind and civil to you -- as we get to know you better! It's all good.

WELCOME TO ATS!!

Thank you for welcoming me.
I apologize if I may have given the impression that I joined, just to leave after a (not even that badly) heated argument. I just meant that, when I was not actually involved in the discussion, there seemed to be less of a personal connection between what was being discussed and my own beliefs. Now that I am able to actually participate in the discussion, there seems to be a higher stake in the 'outcome' of the discussion (although I know that there rarely is a definite outcome, hence the quotations). That is what I meant, and not to speak lowly of any one person here. I apologize again for my rash decision in wording.

I do enjoy this topic of conversation, however, because I have hardly begun to understand the sheer volume of works which are dedicated to this topic. That is why, in some ways, I regret that I did not start my studies in this area much sooner than I did. I have learned through personal experience that text-book knowledge of the religious texts can only take a person so far. I, personally, needed to practice every single religion I was reading about (in as much that I could, without joining the 'ranks', that is), so that I could more fully understand the religion and it's use of symbols and what they represent. That is just my way of learning the religions. Some are easy, some are hard.... and to really follow Islam is, to me, very hard. I tried, but as 'civilized' people we often cannot or do not accommodate the proper amount of time in a day to pray 5 times a day, and working in hard labour, while fasting is another thing I am not eager to repeat. To those that follow it, I have to applaud them, they are very disciplined and, if they really took the time to cultivate a proper sort of attitude towards Islam and religion in general, could achieve absolutely fantastic things with their minds. Same with any religion - so long as one is disciplined enough... and I think that's part of the problem, because some sects of Islam, or any religion for that matter, are so hell-bent on ensuring the development of intense discipline from a very young age, that they definitely over-step the boundaries of moral and just behaviour. This is, needless to say, my personal opinion and could and probably by all means am wrong about one or more or all of the things I stated that I will not mind at all if you pick apart all that I said (in all it's badly written heft) and tell me to my face that I am wrong.

reply to post by Sonny2

There is hundreds of muslims dying every day in fight against terrorists, just for example in Syria. Ignorant.

This is a good opening line - but is there more you can add? That the terrorists are Muslims, too , might be something you could address...what is it you see as "ignorant"? What is your point?