Pazo,

>>
Hey Adolph, you are one sick individual. Do you know how many people died to rid the world out of psychopaths like you?
Why dont you kill everyone in Iraq, that would show real power.
You are unsuccessful because people don't want you there, like they didn't want you in Vietnam and they didn't want the Russians in Afghanistan. It doesn't matter how much Nazi style techniques you employ, people will not stop attacking your troops.
>>

Unfortunately as well as Ironically, you are wrong. Because the majority /by far/ (we are up into the 20,000s now) of casualties are Iraqi-vs.-Iraqi.

And the techniques I stated are exactly those employed to root out and destroy residual nazi sympathizers from post-war Germany. The difference being that when a functionally retarded society operating at little more than a 14th century level of tribal vendetta'd mindset and religious fanaticism acts as the Iraqis are now, you cannot give them the benefit of the doubt. NOR can you make every retaliation 'in the moment' of an attack. For such only feeds their counting-coup psychology of a free ride to heaven. You have to set down very firm rules and make THEM live by the laws you give them.

If we had done so, from the start under a strict military governancy, none of this insanity would be happneing.

Mind you, it is perhaps unfortunate that we don't have the Russians and the French on our side this time as it is a helluva lot easier to play 'good cop' when the bad cops are providing such excellent alternative examples, burning down or shelling towns, wholesale raping women and deporting the entire populations of villages 'to the East', never to be seen again.

Because that was the reality of the last major occupation. And we _shot_ 5 Americans who were caught playing the Euro game of occupational retribution after 'cessation of major hostilities'. Something that should have happened again in the wake of Abu Ghraib, Hadditha and Mahmudiyah. To show that we held a balanced view of acceptable behaviors and applied Field Court expediencies to guarantee the speedy carrying out of justice.

The problem now being that our soldiers are sick and tired of 'major hostilities' continuing to go on. Despite Bush' opening his yap to state otherwise without 'Iraqi Consent' or proof. And so their innate viciousness will deepen with the level of uncontrolled criminal acts around them which they can neither stop nor equal.

As for my being like Adolph, maybe you don't /know/ what mass migrations of population in the wake of near genocide is like. If you did, you would realize why ARTICLE 42 & 43:

>>
Art. 42.
Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.

The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.

Art. 43.
The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.
>>

_Require_ U.S., as the immediately responsible 'Occupying Power' to secure the lands we have taken in providing for the public safety and wellfare of all Iraqis.

It's just too damn bad that all the softheaded socialist fools who signed on the dotted line the highly questionable act of war that was Congressionally agreed on before our invasion of Iraq now do not have the stones to _keep safe_ that which we have violated.

Lest it get worse.

As it did in Europe when easily 3 million MORE people died in the winter of 1945 after the fighting was done. And hundreds of thousands more were disenfranchized from legitimate property rights and safe passage back home to them by countless acts of deliberate red-tape corruption as well as power-vacuum local insurgent barbarity.

Yet THOSE occupiers, with the later help of General Marshall, got their bleep in gear.

Put on their Cop Face and sorted the sheep from the goats.

We have not. And THAT is why the Iraqis are suffering. As they attack each other.

It is unfortunately that in a thread nominally dedicated to the faults of the Rooivalk and RW Attack Aviation in general, you chose this particular paragraph to quote. But since I'm not Hitler. And I can easily see the consequences if we continue to engage in passive neglect. Your ignorance needed correcting.


KPl.

I suggest that we keep on the topic of the heli itself without broadening the scope of the debate into a timeframe starting with the colonization of SA, the Boer War, the 2 world wars, the Iraq conflict and the political machinations of Nazi Germany.

Comparitive studies on the technology of the Rooivak only, please

Originally posted by Pazo
It's good to see that someone here is capable of writing a 2 page post and actually make sence (I mean halfbless not ch1466)

Ch makes perfect sense ( not wanting to read it 10 times to get there is no excuse ) if one put's in the required effort.....

Man, I absolutely can't believe the level that SA has achieved with relatively little funds compared to the behemoths (US, Russia, China), what you are doing is amazing (not sure about that Cheetah...thing).

We were very much the pet state of the USA in the 80's and one assumes we got plenty of benefits ( beside the obvious ) for doing some of their killing in Africa for them.

The Rooivalk (change the name, really if you want to export it) is a hard core machine, it's meant to fight wars, not star in movies

We spy and steal with the best of them even if we can't seem to learn from their mistakes.

P.S. Did you know that SA makes the best 'American' muscle cars, the Superformance Cobra & Coupe. You can have more fun in them than in a Rooivalk or Apache

I guess....

Stellar

Only found this post now, just a few comments from my side:

"Don't whine like a Democrat: "Ohhh they have the slicker sales campaign but it's all lies, lies I tell you!". You lost because what you had didn't do enough /more/ than the 'corrupt existing system' to be selected. Surprise, surprise when it is configurationally and by mission role the same beast in different spots, people will ask why they should trust the new guy. "

Um, "the new guy", excuse me, but who did SA steal the G5 cannon and G6 cannon from btw?
Oh and why did the US purchase so many of the things from SA if we are only "new guys".
Just like most of the weaponry developed in the Angolan War (which as you said is not know to the WEST, even though it was the USA who PAID SOUTH AFRICA to go to war against the Cubans and Russians in Angoloa and then pulled out like bloody idiots at the last second letting many of their allies die, let history never forget that shall we"
Or like the developed PLOFFADDER device which is shot over a mine field and then explodes a safe path over, I believe the US has such a device, where oh where would they have got that from?

New guys my snowey white ass, SA is one of the leaders in top grade military weaponry, has been so for a long long time now.

"South Africa is a relatively tiny nation with a bad history and no track record for having done more than modify other nations weapons to their own use. Militarily, you may be successful but only in wars which are largely unknown throughout the rest of the West (welcome to the aftermath of isolationism). And you may also be perceived as standing in the shadow of the Israelis, especially in airborne systems. "

Ye like I said,"for their own uses" well the USA and MANY other countries on the planet seem to have the exact same uses as us huh?, was it not the US shooting the hell out of IRAQ with SA G5 cannons in the IRAQ war?
In fact when SA troops needed supplys to be delivered to them in Angola, SA could not deliver because every last cannon and the like was been shipped to the US, IRAQ and a few others.
If you do some research, these "new guys" made more revenue from military exports than from gold, but I suppose thats big uncle sam giving a hand out to a third world country hey?, cause big uncle SAM couldnt go fight his own damn war, he had to enlist SA's boys to go do it for him because he was to busy recoverving from Vietnam.

One of the best things of the weaponry made by SA, is that fact that it can be easily repaired out on the field and it lasts, there is more than enough proof of this with what those Olifant tanks went through with lack of supplys during the war, fighting Russian T-34 and T-54 tanks, and at first before the Oilifants where developed lets not forget that the guys where blowing the hell out of the russian tanks with light armoured Ratels of all things.

I'm not really interested in the descussion on "mines better than yours", well when one of your US pilots gets in one of their US apaches and goes up against a SA pilot in an SA Rooivalk such a question can then be answered.
When both choppers/tanks/whatever are out on the same field suffering the same abuses then we all can make statements.
Just because that TV ad says that $150.00 bottle of pills will make you skinny does not mean that it will actually work in reality.

Don't over look SA as some common african country who produces inferior crap.
I dont see any african country out there been good for anything other than buying Russian weaponry because they themselves are too busy killing each other in civil war than to do anything else but to take Uncle Sams hand outs to buy these weapons from Russia in the first place.

Cheers

Sheldon

[edit on 11-11-2006 by necro1234]

Originally posted by benigma
Firstly, the Rooivalk has been around and active since 1981.

No sorry get your facts straight, it was in development from 1989 to 1994 and entered service in 1999

Just came across this site today again and see there were some updates. Well, I'm not going to answer all the crap you posted ch1466, specially as 90% of it has nothing to do with the discussion topic: just no time to do it. I will humour you a bit though:

Originally posted by ch1466
Where's your copy of either the Predator or Predator B? Oh, /that's right/ you are still looking up the lead dogs 'arse' aren'tcha?

It seems for all your military book-reading and googling intelligence, as well as direct prompting, you still don't understand the topic of this thread. It's a discussion on the Rooivalk attack helicopter, nothing at all to do with UAV's.

However to humour you on your favorite topic (UAVs it seems), I'll help you out. (Sorry members : but he asked)

"looking up the lead dogs arse" you say !!! ???

You aren't LISTENING : SA does not follow, we innovate, and we LEAD.

As for the 'lead dogs' (being SA) : they developed an effective operational high-speed stealth drone called Seraph before 1995 - waaaay before your Predator COPY was concieved, so its you that have the honour of looking up the lead dogs arse!!!

Not only that, but you yet have to match it : Seraph flies at Mach 0.85 (way more than Predators 135mph!), range of 1300km (more than Predators 400 miles!), altitude 10m to 12000m (way more than Predators 7600m!). All-in-all, a brilliant, FAST (get-in-do-the-job-get-out), deep penetration reconnaissance and/or strike UAV. In fact, if you research it a bit you'll find the early tactical plans to use it as well as the seeker (another SUCCESSFUL SA UAV) ALONGSIDE the kick-arse Rooivalk attack helicopter, no doubt where US of A copied some of the tactics from for it's Gulf war : although, had you just asked, we might have showed you how to fight too (and succeed too).

Notice the keywords 'effective and operational' : before you start telling me the US of A were having wet dreams about this for 300 years or whatever. Forget it: we designed, built, and used it. And don't claim concept rights, DaVinci designed it in 1400's!

Prior to Seraph, SA developed earlier SA UAV's like the Seeker which saw SUCCESSFUL action in Angola in 1987 : which is most likely what your Predator is COPIED from. Of course after that, there were other variants - Seeker 2 and also a 'Bateleur' etc.

So sorry for the mud in your face, but SA was WAY ahead of US of A wrt to purpose-built remote piloted aircraft too, even though all your googling might suggest different ... that it was USA and Israel (again SA don't bother to loud-mouth our achievements).

Guess anyway that puts to rest most of the crap in your post like :

Originally posted by ch1466
...morons with the creative intuit of rocks all want to copy the Americans 'because surely if they designed it'. Nothing else can be better.
And you will always be second best flunkies because, deep down, underneath it all, YOU BELIEVE THAT STUPID NOTION.

...and you can apply that to yourselves.

In any case, as a designer, I can tell you nothing is further from the truth. Although a hell of a lot happens in USA it has to do with relativity (your numbers), and as far as design goes, it is well known throughout the world (the world outside of US of A) that american design is crap. Fullstop. (Crap being a pleasant understatement).

Originally posted by ch1466
"So what, you're a failed nationalist war monger and would be arms broker with a side degree in psychiatric medicine?"

No, I'm a designer, and in earlier years worked at Armscor in weapons design. In SA, military service was compulsary for 2 years so I had no choice, but I did manage to make a 1st Lieutenant.
What is your real military qualification?

Originally posted by ch1466
G'way. Ya Boer Me..

KPl.

No problem : Go pour your yank-bullsh*t down someone else's tube, someone who's gullible enough to swallow it!

Originally posted by Pazo
Man, I absolutely can't believe the level that SA has achieved with relatively little funds compared to the behemoths (US, Russia, China), what you are doing is amazing (not sure about that Cheetah...thing). The Rooivalk (change the name, really if you want to export it) is a hard core machine, it's meant to fight wars, not star in movies

Thanks Pazo! Nice to see some recognition. I guess we're just used to be supressed by the giants .... they'll do anything to prevent success of smaller nations and force their products down the world throats. The Rooivalk is also know as Red Hawk (it's translation), and you're right, it's all about getting the job done, and properley.

Sure in a modern battle you're going to loose some to manpods and the like, but thats life. Most important is you don't lose any to "brownouts" etc, and issues caused by bad-design or crappy build (shooting tail rotors off etc).

Originally posted by Pazo
P.S. Did you know that SA makes the best 'American' muscle cars, the Superformance Cobra & Coupe. You can have more fun in them than in a Rooivalk or Apache

LOL: Yeah, you prob right - you can have quite a bit of fun in those too! They do quite a lot of cool vehicles in SA, have big production lines for some of the big names too, and do some R&D there. It's a great place to test vehicles too as you can get a good mix of all climates in a small area. Their quality is excellent, and cheap build. As for US cars, they make the Hummer now too, in RHD configuration so the rest of the world can use them.

One thing I was surprised to discover when I got involved in some multihull cruising yacht design is that SA is actually the worlds second largest supplier of catamarans! Thats a serious accomplishment if you consider SA's size and where the big markets are (USA and Europe) ... France is the number one supplier - being mass-produced on big factory lines - very 'plasticky' though. But again, it's to do with excellent design and production quality at a good cost, and possibly the fact that testing them in SA seas is a real good test!

Gonna get done for deviating here!