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posted on Jul, 6 2013 @ 03:38 AM

Originally posted by Madrusa
It's always interested me that Himmler collected as many transcripts of witch trials as possible for his own personal study, i wonder if Germany was ahead of the game in that regard, as they were at the time in so many fields, and that the methodology of modern witchcraft is employed by the state.

In the context of the OP, most certainly, all one has to do is look at the reality of the Gestapo in relation to how it was popularly perceived as an all-encompassing, eyes and ears everywhere, aware of every misplaced word or disloyal act. In actuality, the Gestapo had one or two agents covering each administrative district, the eyes and ears were your neighbours, customers, co-workers, each with an axe to grind or something to gain by selling out your secrets, much like the Salem Witch Trials. Terrible fear was invoked by the notion of those men in black leather trench coats coming knocking at your door, but the real 'evil' was the jealous eyes of your sister-in-law who coveted all that you had and thought that she deserved.

posted on Jul, 6 2013 @ 04:04 AM

Originally posted by DrunkYogi
I think that part of the problem is that some people think they are perfect.

I am not sure whether it is more that some people point the finger at others to deflect attention away from themselves because of the very reasons that you go on to suggest. Some people have more of a vested interest in maintaining a facade of perfection, often because what lies underneath, the means by which they attained their position or power over others, may have been unscrupulous. They have the most to hide, and the most to lose, sleight of hand, pointing away from the 'action' is one means by which to retain the superficial appearance of perfection.

If you take into account the way in which intelligence networks recruit agents, they look for a dirty little secret that they can utilise as leverage in order to gain that persons compliance. Traditionally, during the period when homosexuality was illegal, that was a common recruitment tool for such agencies. If there is no secret, create one, set a honey trap. In this day and age, with the internet and other forms of electronic communications we are infinitely more targetable because every aspect of our likes and dislikes can be read and interpreted, from our browser history, to the things we shop for, to the people we contact and interact with on a regular basis - then psychoanalysed for tailor-made weaponisation. Such processes can reveal things about ourselves that not even we are aware of, unless we make ourselves aware of them. It is not so much that we have to stand up and be proud of who we are, laying ourselves bare in the raw for all to see, all we have to do is endeavour to 'know ourselves'.

Know yourself, and you render yourself, to a large extent, immune to potential manipulators, even when they enter our homes as we relax and feel secure, after a long days toil and therefore are at our most vulnerable (see Nietzsche) and reach out to us from our TV sets.

posted on Jul, 6 2013 @ 01:20 PM
reply to post by Taupin Desciple

Is that a good thing or a bad thing.

That's a good thing. You belong here, I didn't know if you would make it by. Makes me wonder who else is hanging around.

Happy Saturday.

posted on Jul, 6 2013 @ 02:45 PM
reply to post by HairlessApe

There is no "unknowable force" acting us to behave like animals - we ARE animals. Society is a relatively new invention. It's flawed, and the protection it offers the individual, despite our convictions to feel otherwise, is extremely limited.

Yes, there is. We are all connected through narrative. We are connected by our unspoken agreements about context, we are linked by our desire to share a common perception. What makes us distinct from animals has less to do with anatomy, and more to do with our ability to make up stories. What is that stuff that makes up the narrative-networks that cause millions to unify over a common story? It's some unknown force, I would reckon. It is our ability to leverage the most primal qualities of our mastery of storytelling, our inbred ability to tweak those lines of connection, that makes us so expert at witchcraft.

I think that witchcraft is something that people just do, and that is why any attempt beyond that to describe or formalize witchcraft fails and can only exist outside of its natural state as an abstraction, yet it is found in all cultures. That is why the "secrets of witchcraft" are impossible to communicate.

This is why The Book of Shadows, which reveals itself to be an empty journal, is truer as a symbol of witchcraft than the heftiest tome that might try to capture its essence in words. This is why some cultures go so far as to make the absurd claim that a witch can be identified by the black spot on their liver; of course you have to kill the witch to get at the liver. Most of the 'ritual' seen in different cultures, when not meant to be didactic narrative, mean to keep the unknowable techniques of witchcraft at bay.


Society has traditionally afforded a quotient of protection to the individual equal to the quotient of support and protection that individual gives to said society.

2:54; you have to be patient...

edit on 6-7-2013 by Bybyots because: .

posted on Jul, 6 2013 @ 09:55 PM
reply to post by Bybyots

So if everyone were possibly carrying a concealed firearm, would everybody be politer to each other for fear of getting shot?

And call me kooky, but I thought The Crucible was a thinly veiled allusion to the Joseph McCarthy era of witch hunts against supposed communists. The Salem witch trials and other similar such events were primarily attempts by people with power -- men -- trying to take away possessions from independent women, and to silence them. It was a power grab just like various Christian pogroms against pagans in Europe, or pogroms against Christians of other sects, or inquisitions against Jews and Muslisms. Just thuggery in the name of religion.
edit on 6-7-2013 by MrInquisitive because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 6 2013 @ 10:22 PM
reply to post by Bybyots

What a great thread, buddy!

I love the concept you have employed here and I am mostly posting in order to have it in my "My ATS" section to come back to later.
I wanna check, at least the premise and reviews, of the books you referenced in your OP.

In the meantime I am on board in theory. The reason this is termed black magic is two-fold here.
1. It is built on blackmail
2. It required deception to implement. (9-11)

for the great thread!

posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 01:20 AM

posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 12:18 PM
reply to post by MrInquisitive

And call me kooky, but I thought The Crucible was a thinly veiled allusion to the Joseph McCarthy era

Alright, Kooky.

The source I used for the information that reveals Salem to have had more to do with things like feuding neighbors and real estate deals gone bad; and less to do with the Servants of Satan, is called Salem Possessed (Paul Boyer and Stephen Nissenbaum, Harvard University Press) and it was written in 1974, 21 years after Arthur Miller's play.

By the time one generation had grown to adulthood in Salem the place was coming apart at the seams. Abigail and the girls were the children of those adults. We complain about kids being left alone too much with the XBox; Salem's parents might be considered to have left the children alone for too long with Tituba. Most of the trouble came from a horrible feud between the Putnam and Porter families. There was also a factionalized war going on in the clergy for the seat of the pulpit. There were constant land disputes.

The authors themselves admit to having to learn that "trying to understand the Salem witchcraft trials without understanding its pre and post-history is like reading about the "Battle of the Bulge" without knowing that it was a desperate German counter-thrust in the face of a sweeping Allied advance"

Salem worked as an event that happened in 1692 as an analogy for the McCarthy era, and it still works for the OP, despite being updated from 1974 and onward. I still stand by my statement that Americans have yet to deal with what we need to learn to get past an episode that happened 325 years ago. And I don't mind adding that Nathaniel Hawthorne chimed in about 150 years after Salem to remind folks of the same thing.

I think that Mr. Miller would be pleased with our humble update.

edit on 7-7-2013 by Bybyots because: .

posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 03:14 PM
The way I look at it, there is a struggle between the influence of what the culture tells you reality is and your own sense of self. But to even react back to something is to empower it. The disgust that creeps onto my face when I'm watching a MacDonald's T.V. commercial and revulsion I feel is due to the manipulative and bad humored effect it has on me, an effect aimed at swaying my mind towards getting to do what it wants, and in that sense advertising could correctly be considered a form of magic or witchcraft. It's how the media is manipulated to convey a particular message and tone in a certain way with a purposeful goal and outcome in mind.

So much of it is fear based, and that is in my opinion how 'black magic' controls the masses. Keep them afraid and they will do what you tell them to do. No one wants to rock the boat and feel the social whiplash come back at them. Meanwhile however the circles we find ourselves confined in grow tighter and tighter, but really they are limits imposed on us only through our willingness to conform to them. If you have critical thinking skills and can make decisions based on your own internal compass there will always be, in my experience; someone or some force in the world reaching back at you to drag you back down. I'm not sure anyone is immune to the influence, but maintaining personal integrity in the face of such pressures is a great way to expose situations for what they are and break the spell.

The dictum 'know thyself' is relevant to this imo, knowledge is power because the truth is a powerful antidote and dissolvent to the organized confusion/negative illusion of the beast system. Belief of any kind is an excellent way to enslave a mind, even those seemingly self imposed or chosen out of our desires or fears.

“If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.”

If the doors of perception remain dirty, you can be told all sorts of wild stories about what is on the other side of those doors according to what motives the one telling you may have in mind. So much of it is not what we see but how we look at it. It is one thing to say that though, and another to establish just how much of what you see is the way it looks because of how you are observing it. There is no way imo for the observer to remove themselves from what they observe.

Any theory much account for an intelligence that is able to theorize, it's a catch 22. In the very basic definition of the word, people could not stop practicing magic if they tried; it is a tangled and entwined web of interconnectivity which we weave. In this day and age if you don't make decisions they will be made for you, but first a person has to realize they have a choice in the first place. That is where the potential for a shift in power lies though imo, the culture of greed has to be recognized for what it is and I think in many ways personal accountability and responsibility in regards to the existence such elements in oneself is where you start.

'Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.' People need only to use their imaginations. Does reality shift? Or does our awareness of reality shift? Quite the meandering and convoluted little stream of consciousness I've put down here, what is my point again? I'm not entirely sure, just some impressions. Perhaps I should start using bullet points to hone my focus a bit lol.

Has anyone read 'The Golden Bough' by James Fraser? I would be interested to hear some thoughts anyone has on that book.

Peace. ~
edit on 7-7-2013 by Runciter33 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 04:46 PM
Here are some selections from an essay on ceremonial magic. Note that though this is based upon what to do in a ritual; in essence, the 3 elements of 'emotion, imagination and feeling' still apply equally to everyday life, as what you put out there tends to come back in some form or another- at least in my opinion, whether you are conscious of it or not.

All effective magick stands on three legs: imagination , emotion , and feeling; everything else - all the words and gestures, the implements and costumes, the elaborate circles and furniture - serve only to reinforce and focus these three capacities. If any of these three is lacking, then the work is likely to fail; once you are skilled in using all three, you can dispense with practically all the other things people sometimes insist are essential to the practice.

Of the three, emotion is the power that drives the whole show; emotion from the guts, and from the heart. I will go even further; it is not just emotion, but passion that is the power behind magick. Passion in the sense of an intense desire to be connected to that which you are seeking to invoke; a desire that places no restrictions or limits on the connection, but which is so one-pointed that nothing save that which is sought is included within its focus. And passion in the sense of a boundless enthusiasm for the acts by which you seek to create that connection. Admittedly, this is the ideal case; but the closer you can get to it, even for a few moments, the more likely your work is to be successful....

In its highest form, this unconditional passion becomes almost indistinguishable from what is called "Divine Love", which is the closest that one can come (within the worlds of manifestation) to the transcendental state of the Mother aspect of divinity. Passion-for-connection transforms into a state of pure relationship, pure Love, in which all distinctions are erased; both the nature of the magician and the nature of that being invoked disappear, totally lost in the link between them.

Imagination provides the medium (rather, an opening to the medium) through which magick produces its results. The personal imagination seems to blend seamlessly into the astral light, the larger magickal universe; the point at which one becomes the other is impossible to define clearly. An object that begins as a purely internal construct - created and sustained by the imagination of a magician, propelled by the power of emotion - can move out into the astral light and take on a life independent of its creator. It can gather or become a container for magickal power, and act back on its creator (or on others) in ways that are impossible for him to produce through his imagination alone. Conversely, beings and powers operating on levels the magician cannot yet perceive can make themselves known to the him through his receptive imagination, opening his awareness into new realms of experience.

Feeling is the third leg of the tripod, and the final key to success in magick. In order to bring into being the conditions you desire, you must create in yourself the sensations and feelings that the things you have created through your imagination are real, and that the goal of the operation has already been accomplished. In the magickal universe, when you act with all your being as if something is already real, it becomes real. This feeling of reality is the trigger that causes a symbol to move from the imagination into the astral light.

This key to magick is simply stated, but in practice it seems to give the greatest difficulty for most people. The usual culprits are intellectual doubts - "I know I am only imagining this" - and fears of various sorts, e.g., "what if it makes me go crazy?" Both of these have to be ruthlessly eliminated from the magician's consciousness for the duration of the operation. After the work is completely over, you can be as doubtful and fear-ridden as you want; a certain amount of doubt, of critical examination, is healthy and appropriate at that time. But during the work, you must be completely focused on feeling (not thinking) that what you create is real.

Some might be concerned that this "believing makes it real" idea is actually a form of self-hypnosis, a way of fooling oneself by reducing the critical faculties. A genuine success in performing the ritual will dispose of this concern. At some point in the work a threshold is crossed; the strength of the invocation produces an even stronger response from somewhere outside yourself. Events in your magickal space take on a life of their own, at least partially independent of your will. And - most significant - they begin to manifest an intensity, richness and texture that it is utterly impossible for you to produce through your imagination alone, no matter how adept you might be in its use. Once this has been experienced even a skeptical mind must grant that the events are "real" in some sense even if not in the same way as mundane happenings.

I myself am not a practicing occultist but I used to dabble years ago, and always found this explanation of how it works well written. Sounds a lot like the law of attraction in many ways.

Might as well add the link in here for anyone interested, it is from the preface to instructions of the lesser banishing ritual.
edit on 7-7-2013 by Runciter33 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 06:33 PM
reply to post by Runciter33

Hi Runciter,

Thanks for coming by to hash all of this out with us. It's one of those days where I will only be able to get at ATS intermittently, but I hope to get back to more posts tonight.

In the meantime, if you have a moment for a very short, short story today, the 'thing' link in my post above goes to Young Goodman Brown by Nathanial Hawthorne.

It's the second story down, just scroll carefully and you can't miss it. I know, all you have to say is "Hawthorne", and it sounds like some high school English teacher has asked us to do a book report, but I think you will find it very enjoyable if you have been digging this thread.

Hawthorne meant YGB to be social commentary, I know we know that but this thread has a way of wanting to steer itself, which is totally cool, I have just found that it has been very productive for me to stay as close to the bone of American history and literature and wanted to share that with you all.

Hawthorne had the same concerns as Arthur Miller and the OP

"Dearest heart," whispered she, softly and rather sadly, when her lips were close to his ear, "prithee put off your journey until sunrise and sleep in your own bed to-night. A lone woman is troubled with such dreams and such thoughts that she's afeard of herself sometimes. Pray tarry with me this night, dear husband, of all nights in the year."

Or she'll do what?


edit on 7-7-2013 by Bybyots because: .

posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 06:42 PM
reply to post by Bybyots

Ya people are stupid, they actually believe they have secrets.
The mind boggles at such a thing, and especially the lengths they go to cover something up which is plain as day. Kind of like the kid who has cookie scrubs on his shirt and mouth and when you ask them did you take the cookie from the cookie jar, the first thing they do is wipe there hands on the shirt then proceed to oh so covertly swipe there mouth, then proclaim "NO wasn't me"

When kids do it, its hilarious, when adults do it. Its merely stupid and when we have grand inquisitions on such things the stupidity is merely complied upon. But hey we all need hobbies, its just that sometimes those hobbies are taken so serious that everybody becomes and personify themselves as them not merely just a part of them. In a ever changing climate its an ever changing disaster always in the making.

Witchcraft, blah! there is more magic and secret's in baking soda and yest. Both of which just expand and extrapolate on things, kind of like witchcraft, and kind of like technology and kind of like the net, or social outlets like this site or Facebook and kind of like everything else. Kids and there cookies, and adults and there constant and ever vigilant look out and erasing of net cookies. We all have secrets, it just happens that most if not all of those secrets are just plain lame.

posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 08:17 PM
reply to post by Bybyots

Fair enough. I will have a read through the chapter and if anything that strikes me arises to comment upon I will do so.

The following lecture is something I recommend having a look and listen to as it is directly pertinent and specific to the topic. He puts it in good historical context.

I learned in college how the 'scientific method' evolved in part from the various torture methods used in Europe during the witch trials at that time (which was a really shocking thing to learn btw), something prior to what happened in Salem; a more full understanding could be gleaned or gained from looking even further back in time and place to similar acts of violent oppression and mass killings involving pagan type of practices; whether real, imagined or outright lies.

He gets right into it within the first few minutes so no need to really skip ahead. Towards the end he talks about this document, which marks the beginning of the which trials in Europe. Called 'The Hammer of Witches', It was something we also touched on briefly in that particular course.

If someone from the 15th century could see me communicating on a strange glowing rectangular machine instantaneously to other people across the world I'm sure they would consider it magic or witchcraft as well. People fear what they don't understand; and the man behind the curtain pulling the strings says 'that's just the way I like it, all the easier for me to control you, it is.' Look at the bright explosions and listen to the loud noises I make; pay attention to that and never you mind what I'm doing quietly with the other hand.

Slight of hand diversion. Who cares for instance about what information Edward Norton has leaked from the NSA and what that is all about, (only that the government is spying on practically everyone in the world and gathering all the information they possibly can about you). No, the question we should focus on is; do you think he's a hero or a traitor, and how soon do you think the drones will get him? And also have you seen his wife's pole dancing videos on youtube? Omg!

Then use the mediums you have at your disposal to paint any sort of picture you want about the man. Twist and take out of context every email, text message or post on a forums he has ever made in his life and form it into something that fits the narrative of what you wish to portray him as. Then he was just some lone nut loser and who cares what that thing was that he said because he's obviously a terrible person who I shouldn't pay attention to.

I would say they could use such information in the court of law against him as well, but apparently Americans only get a trial nowadays if they decide they want to give you one.

Anyways, apologies; off on a tangent again. Just more commentary, not trying to steer the topic too far afield here. My only point is that this kind of mass manipulation is a form of sorcery and dark magic as well. In fact, the witch trials themselves were ironically evil-ritual type of events that involved human sacrifice, yet here the victims were being accused of being the evil ones. An instance of projection under the Freudian system of defense mechanism definitions but on a social level rather than individual one, or so it would seem a good comparison to me.

Peace. ~
edit on 7-7-2013 by Runciter33 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 10:58 PM
Excellent post Bybot.
Somebody out there is practicing digital witchcraft and has the people in power by the short ones.
I had suspected Prism or something similar was how everyone in Congress could be turned to doing whatever those with the information wanted. Like when you would see Republicans voting for a Gun control bill they ordinarily wouldn't support. They call it "back scratching": vote for my bill - I'll vote for yours. Surrrrrrrre......

Somebody knows that Congresspersons darkest secrets they don't want their wives, children or public to know about. They dance like puppets on strings seemingly of their own volition.

Most regular folks just enjoy the privacy to say what we feel without repercussion.
We're not out to gain power over anyone, learn a bit and maybe connect with a few folks.

Wonderful allegory you've created here.

posted on Jul, 7 2013 @ 11:59 PM
reply to post by Runciter33

Wow Runciter,

I am so happy that I watched that lecture, I learned so much and it truly is very, very relevant to the OP; I hope that everyone watches it, it's well worth the hour.

I really was hoping to just get one other person to read that Hawthorne story. I read it again right after I suggested it to you, and I couldn't believe how much more clear the story was after my experience with this thread; I wish I had had that video and a fresh re-read of YGB on board when I was working on the OP.

No, you're not steering anything off course, I've been too tightly focused and last couple of days have been going in little circles over trying to find ways to define loose ends I've left in the OP. Your input has snapped me out of it a bit. Thanks.

edit on 8-7-2013 by Bybyots because: .

posted on Jul, 8 2013 @ 12:34 AM
reply to post by Bybyots

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the video and I did end up reading that Hawthorne short story and found it interesting how some of it seemed to correlate with a few things I said at the end of my last post. It was well written and what I took from it was the point that the devil had his influence as much with the ones doing the witch hunting in the name of God to ostensibly drive out the devil as anyone else accused as of being a witch, and how evil is a human trait or condition and within all of us.

The association I made from this relating to what I had said previously was in how the witch hunts were the ultimate hypocrisy by inflicting such evil and oppressive measures on the disenfranchised and outcasts of the community who didn't conform to their standards, a case of purporting that the means justify the ends and the arrogance to assume the authority of God; a dangerous game to play that many fanatic and fundamentalist religious types have resorted to from time immemorial.

Again, I wonder whether it is by design and intention that such dark power games play out as they do and by the people who play them; or maybe it all started out as an irrational and instinctual type of fear of the unknown brought on in people and society when a tragedy befell them, or something to that effect. A person caught in fear who feels the need to be in control. Or perhaps it's just pure selfishness or even of the 'absolute power corrupts absolutely' variety. Some combination of those, I'm being vague I know and not quite as concise about what I mean as I'd like at the moment.

Anyways, what may be another area of interest to consider relating to this subject is to go back even further in history and look at the crusade against Gnostic Christians in the 3rd and 4th centuries, or thereabouts. I came across this website years ago, and will include the link and some quotes from it connected to the Gnostic persecutions.

- We command that those persons who follow this rule shall embrace the name of Catholic Christians. The rest, however, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative, which We shall assume in accordance with the divine judgement."

[Emperor Theodosius, The Theodosian Laws, A.D. 380]

"Orthodox Christians assembled the Bible not to bring all the gospels together, but rather to encourage uniformity. From the plethora of Christian gospels, Bishop Irenaeus compiled the first list of biblical writings that resemble today's New Testament around 180 C.E. By 393 and 397, Bishop Athanasius had a similar list ratified by the Church councils of Hippo and Carthage. By prohibiting and burning any other writings, the Catholic Church eventually gave the impression that this Bible and its four canonized Gospels represented the only original Christian view. And yet, as late as 450, Theodore of Cyrrhus said that there were at least 200 different gospels circulating in his own diocese. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia now admits that the "idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning... has no foundation in history."

(Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History, p.16, pub. A.D.1995)

- "You know, it's very interesting to think of the history of Christianity. During the first five centuries, there were lots of Christianities, lots of ways of being Christian. And then, in the period of Theodosius in the fourth century, the only religion allowed in the Roman Empire was the Christian religion, and the only form of Christianity allowed in the Roman Empire was the Christianity of Byzantium's throne."

(Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth, p.248, pub. A.D.1988)

- "From the very first centuries, what was to become Christian orthodoxy vehemently suppressed those Christians of psychic, shamanic, or visionary temperament called the Gnostics. The authorities of the early institutional Church soon established a strict orthodoxy of doctrine against to which all contrary views were stigmatized as heretical. When in 313 the Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official state religion, attempting to syncretize it with various sun-god cults, Christianity was left to deal with the many cults that swarmed within the Roman Empire. The monotheistic zeal to convert and eradicate the diversity of polytheism gave the Church an authoritarian character that has plagued the West ever since with schisms, councils, inquisitions, and witch-hunts..."

(Roger J, Woolger, Other Lives, Other Selves, p. 71, pub. A.D. 1987)

- "It may truly be said that the blackest and bloodiest records that history can show us are the attacks of the Orthodox Church upon the Gnostic mystics."

(Frances Swiney, quoted by Lloyd M. Graham in Myths & Deceptions of the Bible, p.446, pub. A.D. 1991)

Etc. etc. etc...

What as Robert Anton Wilson once remarked I believe as a chapter in one of his books; "The Murder of Christ, a re-run." I suppose it's only fitting the inquisition progresses onto the latest frontier and get hip with the new age of technology. Hell, they likely helped write the book on it. In my opinion though with new ways of oppressing people also comes an opportunity to discover new ways of becoming free. The information as evidenced by things like wikileaks etc. cannot be contained, with the internet and social media information just flows so freely and quickly that i think this works out in peoples favor, barring a shutdown of the internet and/or cell towers, I guess the only catch being people would have to act on the information they have.

edit on 8-7-2013 by Runciter33 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 8 2013 @ 01:35 PM
reply to post by Runciter33

Again, I wonder whether it is by design and intention that such dark power games play out as they do and by the people who play them; or maybe it all started out as an irrational and instinctual type of fear of the unknown brought on in people and society when a tragedy befell them, or something to that effect.

I am going to say that it is intentional. I thought that it was interesting that Professor Ruiz entitled that talk "The Terror of History" without mentioning during the lecture where that idea comes from. It's part of an idea from Romanian historian Mircea Eliade, and his concept of what he called the the Eternal Return.

Eliade posited that the linear history of mankind is so terrifying, that we would prefer to act out our mythologies of cyclical return, rather than face what we need to do to progress along that linear timeline to wherever it is we may be headed.

That's what Waters said happened to the Hopi; first the Spanish, then the Americans, then they fell on one another from the stress, and took the witchcraft upside each other's heads. A tragedy really had befallen them. Just as we Americans have experienced so many tragedies and hits to our psyche over the last 13-14 years.

That's the message that we had hoped to get out in the OP, seems to us that was also the message contained in The Crucible and YGB.

As I stated in the OP, I don't think we are going to be able to do it, and I think we can all agree that we are not only heading there, but we are there now. For instance, there is a surveillance boom going on right now in America, and I am not talking about private industry, I'm talking about homeowners all across America. They are buying up IP cameras, which are selling at a premium, and networking them with software like zoneminder.

So there is the cycle we are attempting to return to; The weird mythology of cold-war era America circa 1960. Only now, we are going to be applying it to one another using networking tools that make cold-war spycraft look cartoonish. That's why I say that it is intentional. You can already see it as the formalized rules and roles found in the Electronic Harassment/Gangstalking/TI thing that is going mainstream.

We have to not do this.

What do you think?

edit on 8-7-2013 by Bybyots because: .

posted on Jul, 8 2013 @ 03:50 PM
reply to post by Bybyots

Ah... Mircea Eliade, truly one of the great thinkers. In my eyes, in my humble eyes.

I just wanted to add another point to this discussion... I am aware that the discussion has drifted in quite a different direction since when I last posted, but as I do not feel this point in itself is entirely off the rails of the current topic, I feel I can add it here.

The governments, big business, mainstream media (and even a lot of alternative media) use language which is purposefully mis-leading, but they express it in a manner which is not obviously in that way. The way that we can combat this form of 'witchcraft' (it's not what I would call it, myself, but in regards to this topic, it appears to be the acceptable term we may use) is to use a form of language that Robert Anton Wilson calls "E-Prime", that is, English without the word "is" (in keeping with simple explanations). I suggest you all try it for yourselves if you possess the patience and desire to learn more about how subjective our realities are. Of course, in having made this point, I have a few times already used the word "is". The word "is" can be translated by our minds (or brains) as an unfaltering truth, A IS B, and nothing else... or could it be, A can be considered as B and nothing else? But that doesn't work as well, it seems, because if A can only simple be 'considered as' B, then it can also be considered as something else.... and so, we have broken free , in some sense, of the truth 'being' something unfaltering and concrete, and more as the subjective pillar on which we are perched on top of, viewing the universe/world.

But even so, we are always going to be faced with limitations, but I think it is far better for us to accept our limitations, and in this way, slowly work our way out of limitations that are self-imposed, but realizing that there will sometimes be obstacles that we cannot overcome until further work shall be done.

posted on Jul, 8 2013 @ 04:02 PM

As I stated in the OP, I don't think we are going to be able to do it, and I think we can all agree that we are not only heading there, but we are there now.

I feel I must take some issue with this, and play devil's advocate for a moment.

One of my earlier posts that strayed off course or so it would seem, imo points towards a possible and in potential, highly effective solution. I will narrow to a couple sentences in particular;

In order to bring into being the conditions you desire, you must create in yourself the sensations and feelings that the things you have created through your imagination are real, and that the goal of the operation has already been accomplished.

Now putting aside for the time being the question of whether magic(k)/witch-craft is "real", which is a fair enough point to contend for those who have not experienced in life anything that would suggest or lead them to believe such practices are legitimate, and for the sake of my argument; consider that the way in which power is maintained much necessarily entail a public that is willing to believe, lend it credence and give it authority and their stamp of approval.

We are already there (or here rather), yes; but there is a saying that it is darkest before dawn, and throughout history examples are plenty that major breakthroughs often come after great oppressive trials and tribulation.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..." Sounds pretty polarized, kinda like today.

To my mind, responsibility begins with myself as an individual. Leading by example. How was Ghandi successful without a single shot fired? Militant non-violence.The famous incident where people simply collected salt for themselves, and since so many of them choice to peacefully not conform and took it upon themselves to take what was given them by basic human rights they were successful.

Power in numbers, enough people who's have 'enlightened' their unconscious and have it come under conscious awareness; much like Jung's idea of the former being the dark circumference outside of the latter's illumined circular interior. People need to expand the circles of their consciousness and the internet has imo accelerated the rate at which people absorb information and at which information spreads across the globe in general.

The thing is, this is nothing new under the sun as referenced by my quotes in the post regarding the Gnostics above. It has been going on forever. Why does it seem so extreme and dire now? Because imo the truth is getting out there. And what are they doing? Quick, make some provisions to the NDAA, more drone strikes, crank up the wars, more oppressive laws, kill the journalists... don't you see the pattern? They're running scared. They know their time is coming.

This is what I believe, and sometimes maybe you believe a thing to be true and then it becomes true because it really was true all along, and perhaps you simply tapped into this reservoir or truth and allowed it to escape a little into reality, or bleed into the false and fake world they call consensus reality. But *truth* is the ultimate reality, and as my signature states below, it doesn't go away once we stop believing in it.

There is a line from the Sun Tzu I believe that goes like this; 'Lessening my chances of defeat by predetermining the victory.' While the quote above is about magic, really it applies to everyday life because it is imo the law of energy. There is a solution, and that doesn't mean it is a formula or answer we must find in some intellectual sense only, it can also be a state of mind.

One door leads to victory, one door leads to defeat. Ultimately, we can play the victim card for so long but the fact remains that the choice is ours to make, both individually and collectively.

That is my take on it, call me a pie in the sky and unreasonable optimist and I realize the dangers are very real. But the dangers in my view aren't death, death is is a given at the very first moment of life. The dangers are will we sell our souls in the name of our fears?

No, because I believe we are better than that. I would even venture to say that I know we are, at heart. Yes, there are some psychopaths in positions power out there more than likely, but let them serve their purpose by being the impetus towards making people finally say 'enough is enough.'

What is keeping people oppressed? They *believe* they are powerless to do anything about it. That is the very fundamental first mistake in my opinion. We may choose to believe this, but it doesn't relieve or free us of our responsibility as human beings nor the power that goes along with it. That power being the power to come together to make the necessary change, and take action towards this end.

Cycles can be broken and expanded if enough pressure is applied to them. Has to happen sometime, what better time than right now?

Let me watch my step climbing down from the soapbox here, lol but in any case I hope you at least get a sense of where I'm coming from.

Peace. ~

edit on 8-7-2013 by Runciter33 because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 8 2013 @ 04:20 PM
reply to post by Bybyots

This was brilliant. Brilliantly illustrated, brilliantly said. And I've often considered that this WHOLE thing is simply for us to learn that there is, in fact, no such thing as anonymity. That when we keep a secret, it's not hurting anyone but ourselves. Furthermore, that there is no such thing as a secret. We are all one mind, connected. To carry around the burden of shame, fear, and defensiveness that these "secrets" cause is to live life without understanding the whole of who you are and why you're here.

The only way out of this is to kill the secret self.

I do want to expand on this, though, because "kill" is such a violent word, and it's actually quite impossible, much like "killing" the ego is impossible.

The only way out of it is to accept and love our secret selves, to become friends with the shadow, and in such we grant other people their shadow selves, as well. When you accept and love something, there is no need to hide it. And it's only through that action that we can bring all the shadows into the light and be whole.

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