Also just heard on news Arafat is finally Dead!!!

If we weren't there would he have been hurt at all? You must side with those who are willing to kill children for gas in your car.

Well he might have grown up to have one of his hands cut off, been murdered/tortured/hung, he may have been gassed by his own leader.

Its hard to say what may have happened to him. Unfortunately he is an innocent victim at this moment.

Grand Lake Native;

Killing children intentionally is not in our countries best interests. This happened and it is tragic but for you to think that this was deliberate makes your arguement rather extreme and rediculous..

As a former resident of Colorado and know that Grand Lake is near if not directly in the Rocky Mountain State Park I have to ask if you drive a car. If so then how can you criticise about gas; especially with the proclivity of 4-wheel drive vehicles in the mountains.

Originally posted by marg6043


Because wanted or not believe it or not is the truth, sorry I busted your bubble but people in this coutry needs to understand that US is fighting the Iraqi people.

Calling them "terrorist" and "insurgents" to sugar coated to the "american compashioned people" is not going to take the fact away and the realities of US one side war on iraq.

Open your eyes, and smell the truth.

Since when can truth be smelled?....and what in the world are you even writing?...it makes no sense. "sugar coated to the American compashioned people"?......what the heck does that mean?

Anyways, Marg you are totally biased against the coalition...yet where were your protests when the UN sanctions killed more Iraqi people, including children than this war has killed?.... Where was your voice of protest against the genocide in which France was involved in Rwanda?....where is your voice of protest now that France has made sure there will be a civil war against foreigners in the Ivory Coast?....
Where is your protest against the violent attacks radicals have been committing, and continue to, against the minorities in Iraq and anyone that is not a radical Muslim?....
Where is your voice of protests against the slaughterhouses, that were just found by the Iraqi troops in northern Fallujah where foreginers were being kept and murdered by the radicals?....

Do I wish war was differently? and no innocent people would ever be caught in the crossfire? Yes I do, but this is the reality of the situation. It is a fact, one which you continue to deny, that even thou war is hell, war has forged many nations into what they are now, and dictatorships and oppressors have been ousted mainly by wars.

Marg, you just keep giving out these...statements that partly do not make sense, and are biased totaly against the coalition for your own reasons....


[edit on 11-11-2004 by Muaddib]

Muaddib-You are right to point out that people sitting in the comfort of freedom, democracy, safety and wealth (as in society) do have the privilege of picking and choosing causes to protest about. I am anti-war, though not 100% anti-this war. Though I feel it is being conducted like a drunken brawl and is a complete mess. I feel the reason most people feel so strongly is due to the fact this war was started by a President who did EXACTLY what he accused his opposition candidate in the election as doing: flip flopping. It was about connections with Al Queda, then WMD's, it was about installing democracy (a contradictory term if ever I heard one), then it was about freeing the Iraqi people. If he had come out and said, "Hey let's go into Iraqi and get rid of that tyrant Saddam" I think a lot more people would have at least respected that. Yes it would be illegal to have invaded a sovereign state and dispose of the leader, but 85% of the western world disagree with this war purely because they think it IS illegal.

that even thou war is hell, war has forged many nations into what they are now, and dictatorships and oppressors have been ousted mainly by wars.

As an appendage to that quote; ALL dictatorships have been FORMED by war.

[edit on 11-11-2004 by The Teller]

Mark Twain:

New York Herald [New York, 10/15/1900]

I left these shores, at Vancouver, a red-hot imperialist. I wanted the American eagle to go screaming into the Pacific. It seemed tiresome and tame for it to content itself with the Rockies. Why not spread its wings over the Philippines, I asked myself? And I thought it would be a real good thing to do.

I said to myself, here are a people who have suffered for three centuries. We can make them as free as ourselves, give them a government and country of their own, put a miniature of the American constitution afloat in the Pacific, start a brand new republic to take its place among the free nations of the world. It seemed to me a great task to which we had addressed ourselves.

But I have thought some more, since then, and I have read carefully the treaty of Paris, and I have seen that we do not intend to free, but to subjugate the people of the Philippines. We have gone there to conquer, not to redeem.

We have also pledged the power of this country to maintain and protect the abominable system established in the Philippines by the Friars.

It should, it seems to me, be our pleasure and duty to make those people free, and let them deal with their own domestic questions in their own way. And so I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land.


It seems that America, and Americans (51%), have learnt very little.
Or perhaps the French are right, and Americans are just ignorant

If you were told by an invading force to get out of your home, would you?

If a close familly member took part in a religious or militant group that the government opposed, would you hide them? If you loved them, you obviously would. No one here can honestly say they would turn in their own flesh and blood just because someone they've probably never met told them that your relative is the enemy.

First off, the majority of the combatants are NOT Fallujah residents...they are foreign mercs and terrorists, and former Baathists.

Second, if given the choice of staying in my home with my family while bombs are dropping, or given a few days to go with my family to a relative's house for a few weeks...I'm beating feet, for the sake of my family.

Third, IF the situation was such as to where a loved one was an insurgent, then I'd STILL leave. I may not turn him in, but I'd be getting my family out of dodge. I'd say, "there's a shwarma in the fridge, good luck, may your god be with you, yada yada yada", but me, my wife, and my baby (if I had one), would be SO out of there..... A home can be replaced, my family cannot.

No, the baby did not have a choice to leave. It is unfortunate that he has morons for parents. But war is war. We have gone above and beyond what any have done before us, to absolutely minimize civilian casualties, but it is a difficult task to take out those who hide behind children.

As for how do I know they were given advance?

1. Watch the news, no matter how biased the source, even Al Jazeera stated the days of warning residents out.
2. Correspondence with troops. My workplace supports many troopers over there, and we correspond with them often through letters, e-mails, etc.
3. Standard tactics. We drop pamphlets, announce over loudspeakers on vehicles, etc. This is even easier in an Arab nation, as such loudspeakers are already well-placed for prayer calls, and they can be used as well.

I agree Gazrok mostly but I think the Israeli Defense Forces are more careful about collateral damage. The United States Air Force bombs from thousands of feet up then the Marines move in. Israel moves the troops in first risking booby traps behind doors and small children throwing grenades. But of course why would Israel bomb Judea and Samaria, a part of the Land of Israel.

I have noticed in this war that Mr. Bush is not afraid to get the job done even if it takes some casualties. Mr. Clinton wet his pants if there was danger of American casualties. Clinton loved bombing from space while feared putting troops on the ground to get the job done.

I congratulate Bush for doing the right thing while risking American lives to reduce civilian casualties.

The trouble is that all the innocent deaths are always created from a situation where both sides in the conflict are supported and funded from the same source.
It was known in advance of the invasion of Iraq that the Republican Guard would simply melt away and form the insurgency backbone, not a single bridge was blown or other impediment created to stop the invading army, that Saddam and some of his entourage were spirited out of Baghdad airport on a Russian jet after the airport had fallen leaving a poor lookalike dupe to be placed in a hole at a later stage, that the bombing of the UN mission and the Red Cross were performed by US and maybe Israeli intelligence agents or patsies, that the main kidnappings and beheadings have been staged events, that those in control couldn't give two hoots for human life and desire something like a 2x decimation (that's to 20% of current) population reduction and are only too happy to see another useless eater child or adult cop death

I think the Israeli Defense Forces are more careful about collateral damage.

Yeah they are much more precise at targeting innocents.

I congratulate Bush for doing the right thing while risking American lives to reduce civilian casualties.

Yeah to once again get the blood on the hands of American and British troops to fight the Israeli battle once again.

The empirical study of the whole war, Iraqi,9/11 the imminent invasion of Iran etc concludes---Take Israel out of the equation and none would have happened. The only way to peace is to be strong against Israel and stop fighting their dirty campaign for them.

[edit on 11-11-2004 by The Teller]