Judge allows Yoga in Public schools, rejects Church-State Fight

Originally posted by 11andrew34


As far as I know, a truly secularized, sanitized yoga doesn't really exist in common practice because the vast majority of westerners were not particularly threatened by the remaining religious terminology, obscure practices, the religious words from a language they don't speak, etc.

But lots of it is still there. For example what's the most basic sequence in 'secular' yoga? Sun salutations. The sun worship is still in there right from the start. The only difference is that especially when it comes to religion, modern people tend not to worry about how something LOOKS to others, they worry about how they feel inside. So if they don't see themselves as worshiping the sun, they don't give a second thought to any concern about offending god by all that saluting and bowing in the direction of the sun.

But people who take religion seriously do worry about it. Here's an article on an Islamic perspective on yoga. They conclude that it should not be practiced by Muslims. I think it's an interesting article whether or not you agree with the Islamic point of view. They do a nice job of showing the religious practices that are part of even 'secular' yoga (and how they conflict with the Islamic perspective of course).

edit on 2-7-2013 by 11andrew34 because: typo

I have done Yoga exercise at a gym. Never once did we talk about the sun, or look at the sun (we were indoors, and I didn't even know which direction the sun was - I have a terrible sense of direction).

If you are outside on a sunny day, and you drop a quarter on the ground, and you bow down to pick it up -- are you unknowingly worshipping the sun god? I think you are just picking up a quarter. But maybe these Muslims think differently, and would not allow you to pick up the quarter?

I have a suspicion that if there are parents at this school who are particularly religious, and have a real problem with this - they could send a note excusing their child from participating. If that embarrasses the child - blame the parents, not the school. All the other students will benefit from the stretching and calming exercises.

I used to practice Ashtanga Yoga, and despite using David Swenson's books as a guide, ignored every ounce of religious or any otherwise alternative crap in them. I can't say for sure if there actually was, I no longer own the books, but if memory serves, I'm sure he's at least New Age hippie dippy spiritual. I don't need a belief system to build muscle strength & flexibility, no one does. I used his books as my guide for 2 important reasons - - I felt the photography in them BEST captured how you're supposed to attain a position, and I was physically most comfortable with the positions he teaches. See what I did there? I chucked the idea of religious/philosophical undertones out the window, and paid attention to what actually mattered to me, that is to say I put my effort in to being physically healthier. Nothing more. Golly gee wiz, if I can do it, Phys Ed teachers sure can. And if it's so hard to separate out the useless filler fluff from the genuinely useful for people, then I suppose we should do away with any form of meditation or relaxation breathing, since one can also argue that's religiously based, too. It's no longer a religious practice when you remove the FLUFF. After that, it's just a fracking exercise. No religion actually owns the concept of toning & strengthening the muscles no matter how hard anyone tries to argue for it.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
But looking at the details of this ruling, there are two things wrong with it: First of all, the claim that Yoga is not religious is complete hogwash. Its something that the secular part of society is making up and being dishonest about to justify the use of something as beneficial as Yoga. Yoga is deeply religious. It is a Hindu practice and its aims are religious as well.

How is it religious? Care to explain? IMO, its Science just the way Kamasutra is upto certain extent. Do you think Kamasutra is also part of the Hindu religion? Although many societies seems to adopt a lot from it Its like saying Tony Robinson or L.Ron Hubbard are christians so their work must be part of Christianity?

The word yoga itself means "union": of the individual consciousness or soul with the Universal Consciousness or Spirit. Though many people think of yoga only as physical exercises — the asanas or postures that have gained widespread popularity in recent decades — these are actually only the most superficial aspect of this profound science of unfolding the infinite potentials of the human mind and soul.

First link has lots of info.

SOURCE1
SOURCE2
SOURCE3

Tonnes of interpretations and info out there

Yoga has roots in religion, but, at best, these days, you can only call it spiritual. It is no more religious than meditation.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I practiced yoga as a matter of fact I just came back from my morning class, I don't know about you but nothing religious about yoga at least to me, because that is not what I am looking for as I relax, actually I am into lowering my blood pressure so that is what I most of the time concentrate on.

Yoga can be highly beneficial for children as increases flexibility, ease the mind and bring a sense of well being.

We all know how stressed our young generation is becoming, most of the time religion just instigate intolerance and actually more hate than peace..

Maybe they should just call it 'mindful stretching' for those with religious sensibilities?

Anything can be religious. It's in the "intent"

Riding my bicycle on a beautiful late afternoon, with the beautiful sunsets here in NM, quail crossing my path, is a religious/spiritual experience.

Riding when it's cold and raining and I get a flat tire or fall due to lose gravel.......the only thing religious about that experience, are my curses when I take the Lords name in vain.

Yoga is a religion, like jogging is a religion.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Thundersmurf

 

Originally posted by Thundersmurf
What next? - Pilates is devil worship?

It IS??? Oh, crap! Now I'm going to have to stop worshiping the devil AND practicing religion! How am I supposed to get my exercise? Is swimming religious?

LOL

Baptism?!

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly


Agreed, the poster claiming yoga is deeply religious doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. I practice yoga, and the presentation in the US is strictly non-religious, unless you are seeking out the enlightenment versions which I am certain will not be taught in public schools.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

At first sight this looked like good news to me. I practice Yoga and I believe that it can be very, very, very beneficial to school-children for both mental and physical strength.

But looking at the details of this ruling, there are two things wrong with it: First of all, the claim that Yoga is not religious is complete hogwash. Its something that the secular part of society is making up and being dishonest about to justify the use of something as beneficial as Yoga. Yoga is deeply religious. It is a Hindu practice and its aims are religious as well.

Secondly, it being religious, allowing Yoga violates the separation of church and state. If Yoga is allowed, praying in school should also be allowed.

My guess is that whoever is in charge of Academia cant get themselves to admit that something religious might be beneficial for the kids so they have to pretend that it is not religious. Otherwise Christians and Muslims could request that prayers not be banned from school.

www.foxnews.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

edit on 2-7-2013 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

how ludicrous! this is like saying... communion is religious, so drinking liquids... therefore religious!!..holy cow!!

are they actually practicing yoga full on with religious intent? hardly.

or are they doing the stretches and positions of yoga.


oh no!! a couple of those stretches were incorporated into USMC calisthenics courses decades ago!! wtf dude

i.r.l., i usually leave the room when something as intellectually deficient as that nonsense is spewed.. certainly not a mensa level rationale

No yoga-breathing means no La Paz (spelling?) method for women giving birth naturally AND a I woke up in a recent surgery and they had me do the yoga-breathing until the next dose of anaesthesia was administered.

When I learned yoga and meditation; we were indoors for all of the classes ... there was no sun worshipping or anything else.

No yoga in school on religious grounds means they need to cancel ALL SPORTS! Track and Field

The first recorded examples of organized track and field events at a sports festival are the Ancient Olympic Games.

...

Track and field events were also present at the Panhellenic Games in Greece around this period, and they spread to Rome in Italy around 200 BC.

And the Panhellenic Games honoured Zeus, Apollo, and Poseidon.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I agree with you.

Other than that,why yoga? There are better things than yoga (how can yoga help someone strength-wise anyway?) that they could do to keep kids in shape.

Also,the school is supposed to be public. Doesn't that mean the parents should have a say about this or am I missing something?

reply to post by Trexter Ziam


In ancient Greece they were doing those things and were dedicating them to the gods. The games weren't religious by themselves but yoga is.

Its funny, you can pick out those who just want to argue and stop reading and just respond once they see something they don't like. Some posters here have just had little fits over one paragraph of my first post to go on to mirror the rest of my post in their response. Its just funny

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Superhans

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by Superhans

Originally posted by SpearMint
reply to post by Superhans

 

Atheist groups (as you call them, I'm not aware of them) won't care about yoga for the reasons I listed above. It doesn't have to have any religious connections at all, and it's actually beneficial. It usually isn't practiced in a way that has anything to do with religion and the activity itself doesn't shove any religious views down your throat.

lol no,
That is the same as making kids "not pray" and by "not pray" i mean sit in the prayer position and talk about things they want and don't have. See! no forcing a religion "down your throat" just the practices- totally different thing...

I don't know what you're talking about. The whole concept of praying requires the premise that there is a (Christian) God and is therefore directly tied to a religion, yoga has absolutely no religious ties, it's a physical exercise.

See, you have a reading issue. I said make kids "not pray" which is not religious at all, its just the religious practice without all the indoctrination.

Let's not resort to petty insults, you are not communicating your point effectively. I'm still not completely sure what it is. Are you saying that praying can just be a practice without indoctrination? In which case, it most certainly can't. Like I said before, it relies entirely on the premise that there is a God.

edit on 2-7-2013 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

Again, you have a reading issue as there is no way to say it any more clear. Im saying have kids "not pray" I know some words send some people of the militant persuasion into post before reading frenzy but i will say it one more time.
Yoga without the religious parts is the same as making kids "not pray". By "not pray" i mean sit in the prayer position and have them say things they want and wish to achieve, not mention of god or anything. Just the practice without religion. If the word prayer in my post is still to distracting to you, im sorry.

reply to post by Oceanborn


Explain in few simple sentence how is Yoga religious? do you just automatically assume it is religious because it has a origin in Hinduism(and possibly others).

Do you think Tai Chi is religious? How about Muay Thai? Capo-era? cause they are practiced majority by 1 ethnicity/religion/origin.

Yoga got its religious attributes because Yogi's and other meditators, use Yoga as a way to reach calmness and spiritual enlightenment. Due to the fact Yogi's were Hindu's, people assume Hatha Yoga(a martial arts really) as religious.

If the Yogi's were Christians, a Christian Yogi(hello Jesus), would you say Yoga is christianity?

Originally posted by Thundersmurf

Originally posted by Superhans
To say yoga is not religious is just stupid, it would be like saying prayer is not religious if you called it happy time and did it silent.

I couldn't disagree with you more. I've practiced yoga many times throughout my life and not one single time was there any mention of a god, spirits, faith in the almighty, divine blessings, praying, etc - basically, nothing to do at all with any form of religion or religious worship.

It's simply a good form of exercise. I don't see why so many people are saying it's a religious act and making such a big deal out of it.

What next? - Pilates is devil worship?

That is just a stupid thing to say, yoga has a very clear religious background. Its not like they are calling math religion just for the hell of it.

reply to post by luciddream


Because it is also a spiritual practice.

I'm not familiar about Tai Chi. From what I know Muay Thai and Capo-era don't have anything of spiritual nature in them.

If the Yogi's were Christians, a Christian Yogi(hello Jesus), would you say Yoga is christianity?

You're complicating things and there's no reason for it.

Other than that,even if you don't agree with me about yoga,don't you agree that parents do have a say in a public school?

reply to post by Superhans


Yoga is not necessarily defined as religious but is defined as a philosophy. Sometimes people have a hard time distinguishing the difference between a philosophical practice and a religion because both of them have some common features. Both a philosophy and a religion will have some form of guideline for a way to live your life. As an atheist, Jesus as a man, much of what he purportedly said in the bible would fall under the definition of philosophy. What doesn't fall under philosophy and instead, falls under the definition of religion would be the belief in the miraculous. Now, while you could argue (and sort of did) that an obese woman believing that she can shed pounds via yoga is believing in what could be constituted as a miracle, lol, it still doesn't because the woman believes that it is going to help her do so through a form of physical exercise.

Another key distinction between a philosophy and religion would be ritualism. Prayer could almost be seen as a form of meditation but where it differs from meditation is that prayer is targeted towards a deity while meditation is targeted at essentially stilling the mind and deriving inner peace through that stillness. A philosophy can be embraced without embracing the theistic qualities that may be involved. So, as an atheist, I can embrace some of Jesus' philosophies into my way of life without necessarily forming a religious belief out of it. Therefore, a teacher could advise a child in school, when faced with a problem, to "turn the other cheek" without direct reference to any specific theistic belief and that would be fine. It is when ritualism and theism are inserted into the curriculum that it becomes a separation issue.

In the case of Yoga, it is a theistic philosophy, according to Merriam-Webster, but it is also defined by the same as an exercise routine as the theistic qualities have also been largely stripped out of it entirely. Some of the earliest great philosophers were actually theistic philosophers including Socrates with his teleos, Plato, and Aristotle with his virtues and relationship between the divine and nature. A theistic philosophy is similar to a religion in that there is a belief in the divine but a theistic philosophy still lacks the ritualism. It is simply one step up from agnosticism. Placed on a spectrum, it'd look like this:

atheism->agnosticism-->theistic philosophy-->deism-->theism

lol, kind of the proverbial middle road of Buddhism there.

reply to post by Oceanborn


Spirituality is not Religious. One can be Spiritual without Religion. An Atheist can be Spiritual.

___

Yes Parents should have a say, just like any other gym sports, but what reason are they going to give? "i think it is religious" well you will probably be looked at weirdly.