Judge allows Yoga in Public schools, rejects Church-State Fight

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint
reply to post by Superhans

 

Atheist groups (as you call them, I'm not aware of them) won't care about yoga for the reasons I listed above. It doesn't have to have any religious connections at all, and it's actually beneficial. It usually isn't practiced in a way that has anything to do with religion and the activity itself doesn't shove any religious views down your throat.

Well you haven't created a list of criteria on a thing being religious or not. What you have done is water down the definition of yoga to a point to make it less susceptible to the harsh criteria that you yourself enjoy when talking about other religions.

The fact is these seemingly religious neutral Yoga fundamentals do stem from a main stream and old religion.....Om is the word.

I was quite clear when I said it does not have to relate to a religion in any way, how you define a religion is irrelevant, it does not teach or refer to any religious beliefs.

Originally posted by SpearMint


Let's not resort to petty insults, you are not communicating your point effectively. I'm still not completely sure what it is. Are you saying that praying can just be a practice without indoctrination? In which case, it most certainly can't. Like I said before, it relies entirely on the premise that there is a God.

edit on 2-7-2013 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

We have art teachers in public schools that teach students to make "dream catchers" after the native american spiritualism/shamanism. My kids have brought some home. These things entirely operate on the premise of communication with high powers/disembodied sprits. It is in fact religious indoctrination. These things cannot be made in art class without some measure of accompanying indoctrination as to a premise. And Yoga has a premise that goes way beyond relaxation. In fact the relaxation part is simply the preparation for the spiritual part.

Are you seriously going to set here in a group as intelligent as many are on ATS and try to pass Yoga off as a form of relaxation? As if no one is smart enough or know enough to evaluate this beyond a "Yoga for dummies" level?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Yoga is deeply religious. It is a Hindu practice and its aims are religious as well.

That's like saying potlucks are religious events just because churches participate in them.

Do the kids practice traditional Yoga in a religious context? Do they know and understand the religious aspect of it? Could they even name the religions or Yogis that are associated with traditional Yoga?

Or is it modern Yoga strictly for physical and mental exercise?

Hatha Yoga

As opposed to the traditional practice, physical focus on Yoga became popular in the west beginning in the second half of the 20th century, and is often referred to simply as "Yoga" in the context of health and physical exercise.
...
The hatha yoga predominantly practiced in the West consists of mostly asanas understood as physical exercises. It is also recognized as a stress-reducing practice.

First of all, the claim that Yoga is not religious is complete hogwash. Its something that the secular part of society is making up and being dishonest about to justify the use of something as beneficial as Yoga.
...
If Yoga is allowed, praying in school should also be allowed.

First of all, the claim that prayer is not allowed in school is complete hogwash. It's something that the religious part of society is making up and being dishonest about to justify forcing organized and sanctioned prayer in schools.

Prayer is allowed in school or ANYWHERE. There is no way to prevent or disallow people from praying.

Many atheists practice yoga. To suggest that a religious link is necessary is simply false.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint


Let's not resort to petty insults, you are not communicating your point effectively. I'm still not completely sure what it is. Are you saying that praying can just be a practice without indoctrination? In which case, it most certainly can't. Like I said before, it relies entirely on the premise that there is a God.

edit on 2-7-2013 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

We have art teachers in public schools that teach students to make "dream catchers" after the native american spiritualism/shamanism. My kids have brought some home. These things entirely operate on the premise of communication with high powers/disembodied sprits. It is in fact religious indoctrination. These things cannot be made in art class without some measure of accompanying indoctrination as to a premise. And Yoga has a premise that goes way beyond relaxation. In fact the relaxation part is simply the preparation for the spiritual part.

Are you seriously going to set here in a group as intelligent as many are on ATS and try to pass Yoga off as a form of relaxation? As if no one is smart enough or know enough to evaluate this beyond a "Yoga for dummies" level?

You can tech kids about religion and culture with out it being indoctrination.

Originally posted by cconn487
Well according to the bible the body is a temple. So if you aren't are a "recognized" christian, your pretty much worshiping a false idol/god by performing yoga? Really?

That is the only reason I can think of for a church organization to not like yoga.

This is not a case where Christianity is trying to justify itself and its value to society as it may be exercised in public school. Its about the legal matter of the state keeping some religions out and allowing others in based on its own arbitrariness or political/religious view point......thus establishing a religion or religions. If one religion can be run out then they all can. But what we have are hocus pocus definitions of other religions, state favored religions defined for just such an occasion.

Its very clear....keep christianity out but allow shamanism and first level Yoga in.

Yoga is a spiritual science of self-realization which is synchronizing your own self with the universal self and realizing that you are ONE with the whole.

In Sanskrit, yoga simply means "Union" or "conjunction" which is the aim and essence to the non-dual status leading to the bliss ultimate.

Yoga methods include the complete ground of our survival, from the physical, emotional and mental to the spiritual. Its methods contain moral disciplines, physical postures, breath control, as well as meditation.

The whole system of Yoga is built on three main structures: exercise, breathing, and meditation.

Yoga includes the most popularly known asana, which refers to 'the practice of physical postures or poses with systematic breathing techniques' that leads to harmony of mind and body resulting in total health.

In fact, yoga is any spiritual practice that leads to self-realization by many different individual ways and means that include one or any combination of the following:

- Strong ethics which while practicing shall not cause harm to any creature
- Righteousness
- Altruism ie, benevolence, charity, kindness, magnanimity, philanthropy, etc
- Speaking only truth and contemplating and understanding what is Truth
- Keeping up the promises
- Ahimsa, ie not harming any creature by words or deeds
- Practising harmony in thoughts and deeds
- Always helping the needy
- Living without any selfish motif
- Always thinking and working towards the welfare of other humans irrespective of their race, caste, creed, colour or region
- Having kindness and expressing it towards the animals
- Not indulging in betrayal, cheating, theft, lying, killing, harming, cursing, anger, belittling, and all such negative traits.
- Regular practice of asana in true sense of creating one's own health, for the family, for the society and for the whole world
- Considering the whole world as one single family and developing love and compassion towards all humans, and every creature
- Working towards the establishment of world peace
- Earning a living by righteous ways and means

The practice of Yoga CAN be religious. Yoga positions in and of themselves are not religious. They are simply physical positions you put your body in. You can put your palms together in front of your face (in a prayer position), and be thinking about that cute babe you nailed Saturday night. Just because you put your palms together in front of your face, doesn't mean you're praying.

What makes the difference is what's going on between your ears, not what's going on with your arms, legs and torso. I see nothing wrong with teaching yoga positions in school, as long as you keep any religious teaching out of it. A lot of the stretching exercises that school athletes do pre-game could be considered yoga poses.

Originally posted by Redarguo


You can tech kids about religion and culture with out it being indoctrination.

But many and maybe yourself don't hold that stamen true for christianity being taught in public schools.

Yoga is great limbering exercise. Meditation is not necessary for yoga exercises; but, is also a great mind control exercise. Both yoga and meditation may be a part or parts of some religions; but, they can be completely separate. I know, I learned both of them in the 60's and the classes didn't have even an ounce of any religion tossed in.

Saying you cannot have yoga (or even meditation) without adding religious elements is like saying one cannot eat crackers (unleavened bread) without being a Christian.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Redarguo


You can tech kids about religion and culture with out it being indoctrination.

But many and maybe yourself don't hold that stamen true for Christianity being taught in public schools.

I have no problem with it or any philosophy being taught in an impartial way. IE I have no problem for example with philosophy of fascism being taught to students along side other political theory, if however, fascism was being taught in a pro way then yes I would have a problem with that. Same goes for culture and religion. Academia should always be impartial, not based to the teachers personal beliefs.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by SpearMint


Let's not resort to petty insults, you are not communicating your point effectively. I'm still not completely sure what it is. Are you saying that praying can just be a practice without indoctrination? In which case, it most certainly can't. Like I said before, it relies entirely on the premise that there is a God.

edit on 2-7-2013 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

We have art teachers in public schools that teach students to make "dream catchers" after the native american spiritualism/shamanism. My kids have brought some home. These things entirely operate on the premise of communication with high powers/disembodied sprits. It is in fact religious indoctrination. These things cannot be made in art class without some measure of accompanying indoctrination as to a premise. And Yoga has a premise that goes way beyond relaxation. In fact the relaxation part is simply the preparation for the spiritual part.

Are you seriously going to set here in a group as intelligent as many are on ATS and try to pass Yoga off as a form of relaxation? As if no one is smart enough or know enough to evaluate this beyond a "Yoga for dummies" level?

That's fine, but yoga isn't a dream catcher. You can do yoga without any religious teachings or references, people do this all the time and have done for ages. I have actually, not really my thing though.

Yoga has little to do with religion, it has more to do with creating self confidence and good health. I can't see the church going against Yoga, the people are not realizing that Yoga is one of the tools god uses to help us and it can work side by side with religion. Look at the people that do Yoga, they are mellow and this mellowness would be good to extend to the church and to everyone's daily life. It has been proven to work to instill tranquillity and healing, two things that are necessary in the church. It is not in competition with belief in god at all, it is just a tool.

Yoga is bad for Capitalism though, except maybe for a few people selling Yoga mats and those neat see through Yoga pants

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Yoga is deeply religious. It is a Hindu practice and its aims are religious as well.

I don't believe this for one second. I know several people who practice Yoga, and there is no religious teaching involved. Claiming Yoga is religious is like claiming Meditation is too, because practitioners of medication were traditionally Buddhist.

These practices are so far removed from religion they can no longer be claimed to be promoting any religion. They are mental and physical exercises with a historical base in religious belief, but practiced around the world by millions of people without the inclusion of religion at all.

Christmas is a Pagan holiday, but how many people do you see practicing religious Pagan ceremonies over the holiday?

Culture and society moves on, things evolve, and these are examples of that. This is no way comparable to a state enforcing Christian religious beliefs in schools and it should definitely not be compared to such by people who are upset that their own religions indoctrination has been rejected by most educational systems.

Separation of Church and State is a beneficial thing, as is including a secular practice in schools designed to assist mental and physical strength.

Finally, if you think your method of Yoga is religious in nature, perhaps you picked the wrong place to practice it or are using a specific guide with that in mind? From my experience Yoga is about as religious as saying "Oh my God".

Yoga can be religious(it should say SPIRITUAL) but Modern Yoga is not.

Do you learn about Hinduism/Buddhism in yoga class?

Do you know the Hindu Tradition when doing Yoga?

Here is a fun fact, Some Hindus don't even know Yoga and don't practice them! BAM!! There is no Hindu scriptures that say you must use Yoga to reach god.

Yoga and Hindu/Buddhist religion has nothing to do with each other, but these religion use Yoga as a PATH to reach spirituality, same with meditation.

Only reason Yoga is associated with Hinduism is because it was practiced by the people who was Hindu, NOT because IT IS Hindu..

Originally posted by Superhans
To say yoga is not religious is just stupid, it would be like saying prayer is not religious if you called it happy time and did it silent.

I couldn't disagree with you more. I've practiced yoga many times throughout my life and not one single time was there any mention of a god, spirits, faith in the almighty, divine blessings, praying, etc - basically, nothing to do at all with any form of religion or religious worship.

It's simply a good form of exercise. I don't see why so many people are saying it's a religious act and making such a big deal out of it.

What next? - Pilates is devil worship?

reply to post by Thundersmurf

Originally posted by Thundersmurf
What next? - Pilates is devil worship?

It IS??? Oh, crap! Now I'm going to have to stop worshiping the devil AND practicing religion! How am I supposed to get my exercise? Is swimming religious?

Originally posted by Skyfloating

At first sight this looked like good news to me. I practice Yoga and I believe that it can be very, very, very beneficial to school-children for both mental and physical strength.

But looking at the details of this ruling, there are two things wrong with it: First of all, the claim that Yoga is not religious is complete hogwash. Its something that the secular part of society is making up and being dishonest about to justify the use of something as beneficial as Yoga. Yoga is deeply religious. It is a Hindu practice and its aims are religious as well.

Secondly, it being religious, allowing Yoga violates the separation of church and state. If Yoga is allowed, praying in school should also be allowed.

My guess is that whoever is in charge of Academia cant get themselves to admit that something religious might be beneficial for the kids so they have to pretend that it is not religious. Otherwise Christians and Muslims could request that prayers not be banned from school.

www.foxnews.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

edit on 2-7-2013 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

I honestly don't see a problem though, praying and meditation are virtually the same. What is the problem church have with this ruling when technically, prayer has just been allowed in schools. It doesn't matter what religion it came from.

If there is only one divine, then the prayer or meditation are ultimately praying or meditating to the same 'God' "Source" "the Tao".

people see things mostly in black and white and forget that the gray also exists.

Stripping a practice like yoga of its spiritual roots, editing out terminology, etc is actually something that the communist USSR and Chinese would do with traditional practices which had a religious origin and still used religious terminology.

The notorious Falun Gong started out as exactly that sort of thing, a sort of tai chi and ba gua without the Taoism, and at first the communists supported it for that reason. But then it rapidly took on its own strange mix of old Chinese and new age and just odd beliefs, and for the Chinese government, that was a big strike one against it.

As far as I know, a truly secularized, sanitized yoga doesn't really exist in common practice because the vast majority of westerners were not particularly threatened by the remaining religious terminology, obscure practices, the religious words from a language they don't speak, etc.

But lots of it is still there. For example what's the most basic sequence in 'secular' yoga? Sun salutations. The sun worship is still in there right from the start. The only difference is that especially when it comes to religion, modern people tend not to worry about how something LOOKS to others, they worry about how they feel inside. So if they don't see themselves as worshiping the sun, they don't give a second thought to any concern about offending god by all that saluting and bowing in the direction of the sun.

But people who take religion seriously do worry about it. Here's an article on an Islamic perspective on yoga. They conclude that it should not be practiced by Muslims. I think it's an interesting article whether or not you agree with the Islamic point of view. They do a nice job of showing the religious practices that are part of even 'secular' yoga (and how they conflict with the Islamic perspective of course).

Considering that it, like meditation, is used by athiests, agnostics and diverse interfaith beliefs, and is not in itself religious and does not equate prayer, very happy with this decision.

I suspected this had something to do with Islam and not Christianity, by the way.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Thundersmurf

 

Originally posted by Thundersmurf
What next? - Pilates is devil worship?

It IS??? Oh, crap! Now I'm going to have to stop worshiping the devil AND practicing religion! How am I supposed to get my exercise? Is swimming religious?

Let's see.....Swimming is done in water....Jesus could walk on water....YUP, it's religious!

I suppose we should all (even our kids in class) just sit quietly and do nothing at all. If we move just a tiny bit, someone may become offended and claim our small movement was an attempt to indoctrinate/convert their fragile little kids.

When will we ever get past stupid issues like this?