French president threatens to block EU trade negotiations with the US amid bugging scandal

As this huge scandal continues to ripple across the Atlantic, this huge trade deal due to be discussed is now under threat due to the NSA. Admittedly, I haven't kept myself fully up to speed with this so would appreciate the opinions of the more "au fait" members. How will this affect the long term relationship between Europe and the US? It's no wonder the US want Snowden's head on a plate!

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French President Francois Hollande has said allegations that the US bugged European embassies could threaten a huge planned trade deal. Negotiations over the EU-US pact, the biggest bilateral deal ever negotiated, are due to start on 8 July. Mr Hollande said there could be no negotiations without guarantees spying would stop "immediately". US Secretary of State John Kerry said earlier that activities to protect national security were "not unusual". German Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman, Steffen Seibert, said "bugging friends is unacceptable... we are no longer in the Cold War". He added that Germany wanted the deal to go ahead but "mutual trust is necessary in order to come to an agreement".

I suspect he will find that a previous president has signed some little known piece of paper agreeing to this passage of information of our private lives over to the USA. What has not been reported is though, if there is a mutual passage about the USA citizens back into the EU or are we, as usual obliged to the USA.

I do not refer to the USA population just to its political bastions. All our publics are being screwed one way or the other.

reply to post by fiftyfifty


I am actually finding this whole thing rather funny (the reaction of politicians). They all appear to be acting with complete shock and surprise, which is rather amusing when you consider they are supposed to understand the world of "real politik".

Why would any politician be surprised that spying goes on at every level and aimed at allies as well as enemies? I honestly believe that those surprised by this are clearly not fit for office as they simply do not have a clue.

It's quite disturbing really that while many suspect their own governments of intruding on their personal information, not many of us suspected that Uncle Sam was watching us from across the Atlantic. Major political change is coming. It started in the middle East but I'm sure with the economic state of the EU and the US that it is only a matter of time before Our governments are 'reformed'. Scandal after scandal can only be tolerated for so long.

reply to post by Flavian


I actually don't think many of the world's 'leaders' are capable of organising pass the parcel at a kids party.

It looks to me as though the 'surprise' reaction simply works in favour of much of the EU who don't want to enter into a new deal with the US 'master puppeteer' nation. This acts as an excellent reason not to. The US is losing face and allies. As someone else stated, I speak of the US gov not the people.

reply to post by Flavian


That they know that is spying going on is not surprise, but what they maybe surprised is how much leverage the spying agencies have on politicians when it comes to the private sector doing the spying for personal interest, like law making, passing and control of the governments.

That is where the danger is, we can pretty much see that our government is more clueless that it seems, when it comes to whom are the ones holding damaging information on them.

The shadow government is not a myth is very much real.

reply to post by fiftyfifty


Do you find it a little queer that most respondents here say emphatically that Ed Snowden revealed nothing new; nothing of substance; nothing that the public wasn't already aware of etc., etc., etc? They also point heavily to the fact that he didn't graduate from high school - alas he didn't even attend, therefore he wasn't mentally equipped to handle such lofty matters. I laugh heartily at all that nonsense talk: I say - thank his lucky stars for his non-attendance @HS (and any subsequent 'higher education'), because that is what apparently enabled him to be a real live thinking - intelligent - independent person. And all of his recent revelations - along with those to come are NEW. People in the USA and throughout the world didn't know any of this important information and the manner of its highly secretive implementation prior to Ed Snowden's astounding revelations!

There is much more to come once he is in a 'safe harbor.'

Did Snowden even get his G.E.D. as did many while in the military? If so then that would have compensated for his previous lack of education, and would surely account for his brilliant excursions into the inner workings of the NSA - of the entire government even

nice

reply to post by Guadeloupe


I am very sure that he is very highly intelligent, but what is more clear to any of us tax payer and citizens in this nation is that anybody working with a spying agency can get data so easily from the agency and use it for their own personal agenda.

That's the big picture, how much of that data pertaining to the corruption going on in our own government, from the judicial system to both houses in congress, anybody with such information can rule a nation behind close doors

I am amazed anyone would be shocked. ECHELON has been used for industrial espionage for decades. We live in world of mass commercialism and consumerism so, again, how can anyone be surprised by the notion that politicians are at the beck and call of big business?

We spy on our friends, on our enemies, on each other - both individually, commercially, militarily, etc, etc. I have been loving the rhetoric coming out of Germany recently - it is complete and utter hypocrisy of the highest order bearing in mind they do exactly the same thing.

Lobby groups have far too much power but that is a position that we the people (all over the world) have allowed to develop by letting groups such as this fight our corners over various issues over the past 30 years (or more).

The notion that any of this is a surprise is so laughable it is untrue.

Spy Agencies spy? No, you don't say.

The validity of these actions is a separate argument to be had but all of these claims (daily) about shock, surprise and anger from various politicians from various countries are, frankly, highly amusing. If my local MP didn't know this sort of thing went on i would be lobbying to have him removed from Parliament because he clearly wouldn't be fit to serve that office.

America is the worst ally ever

gets you into trouble constantly with leaking intel
gets you into proxy wars that cost billions
causes GFC's
bugs your offices

and in return gives you jersey shore. Bad bad ally. Sanctions.

reply to post by fiftyfifty


Any and all deals should be under fresh scrutiny, because it has now become clear that the US has been using economic espionage against its own allies.

If I were making a business deal with someone, and I discovered that they had been listening in on all my phone calls, emails and internet activity, the deal would be dead in the water, and all other relationships with them would be severed, or at the very least restricted to the absolute bare minimum while I find another partner to work with - one that I can trust.

This is a matter of economic security. If any government in Europe is not publicly attacking the US over this and taking measures to prevent it from continuing, their people should be demanding answers as to why. They are the ones being sold down the river to keep America dominant in business and global economics, at the expense of the rest of us.

There is a war now going on, and people need to be vigilant and make sure their governments are acting for the benefit of their people, and not allowing the US to rob them blind in an effort to remain stable while all others collapse.

The US government has been caught rigging the game, it's time the people became the referee and held their own governments and the USA to account for this. You cannot just sit back and claim that this doesn't affect you when the collapse of your economy could benefit America.

This is an economic war, America could be responsible for deliberately sabotaging European economies for their own gain, this is extremely serious for all citizens.

Originally posted by Samuelis
How about sanctions on the US?

Why? How about US sanctions on individual EU countries? (or as a collective). Or Chinese sanctions on Japan? Or any other example you care to give?

It was only last week that several MEP's were getting in a tizzy over the fact that one of the G20 conferences was bugged! Did they honestly think China and Russia (as just a couple of examples) weren't also bugging the meetings?

I am perhaps a bit off topic... as it seems to have gone into speculations about Snowden; his past, etc. I just don't know much about all that.


What I wanted to comment on was the relations between the US and Europe- France in particular, because of this scandal?

I think Hollande is just making points for the french people with his statements. Not only do I think the whole thing didn't come as a surprise to the worlds top leaders, I think they recognize why it is done and ultimately can only agree with it.

It was not that long ago that a french citizen of arab descent did two acts of terrorism, including shooting at random kids in front of a jewish elementary school, and in the end, the government was critisized because they had been aware of some questionable behavior on his part (trips to Afghanistan and certain contacts) but they didn't get him after his first act (killing three people).

They were criticized for not having followed him closely enough to know it was him and stop him before he did his worst act! So while they are upping their surveillence (by popular demand) I truly doubt they will also go on a rampage against such methods.

It also shows how irrational large groups of people can be and how impossible it is to let them point the direction to go in

I think, that just as in the past, when France has come into clashes with the US on their lack of respect for privacy issues (it has happened a few times in the last few years) the two will eventually come to a quiet agreement and all will continue on track.

The people just love seeing some big complaints and statements (it's the national past time- râlerie) .... but then they feel appeased and relieved and they don't much care what happens afterward.

yes

Sorry but I did translation from French to English

>>>

AFP
June 30, 2013
Europeans have demanded explanations on Sunday the U.S. spying program, which was intended European EU institutions and millions of citizens, Brussels same warning of potential impact on the negotiation of a free trade transatlantic.

"Between partners, we do not spy", launched Sunday to Luxembourg European Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding. "We can not negotiate a transatlantic market if there is any doubt that our partners target listen to the offices of the European negotiators," she said, claiming that the United States "dispel these doubts quickly ".

Directly involved in the negotiations, the EU Trade Commissioner, Karel De Gucht, ruled on Belgian television that the case would be "very serious" if the allegations were confirmed. However, he refused to engage in a verbal escalation, pending clarification requested by the EU in Washington. "Clarity, truth and transparency is what we can and should expect from our American friends and allies explanations are necessary and urgent." He said of his on his Twitter account the French Commissioner Michel Barnier side.

The three commissioners responded to the revelations of the German weekly Der Spiegel , who said Sunday that Prism, the spy of the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) program had targeted the institutions of the European Union. Spiegel based his accusations on confidential documents which he may have knowledge with former U.S. NSA consultant, Edward Snowden, the heart of a global mess worthy of the best spy novels.

"Cold War"

France has also asked for an explanation "as soon as possible." "These facts, if confirmed, would be totally unacceptable," said the head of its diplomacy, Laurent Fabius. The French Minister of Justice, Christiane Taubira was further, believing that if Washington had indeed led espionage operations described by Spiegel, it would be "an unspeakable act of hostility."

For his German counterpart Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger, "it is beyond belief that our American friends consider Europeans as enemies." "This is reminiscent of the actions between enemies during the Cold War," she said, biting, claiming she also explained "immediately and in detail."

"Targets to attack"

According to Spiegel , the program consisted not only of microphones installed in the building of the EU in Washington, but also infiltration of computer network that allowed him to read the e-mails and internal documents. The representation of the EU at the UN was monitored in the same way, according to these documents, in which the Europeans are explicitly designated as "targets to attack."

And the latest revelations of Spiegel, made Sunday afternoon, could ignite the German public is very sensitive to issues of privacy protection. Germany is indeed "the European country most closely watched" by the NSA, with 500 million telephone connections and recorded monthly Internet ensures the magazine, which explains that a "normal" day of spying for about 15 million phone calls recorded in Germany, against about two million daily in France. Germany, like France, are considered by the NSA to be less reliable than Canada, Britain, Australia and New Zealand, as Der Spiegel explains the basis of these documents.

Europeans are yet "among the closest allies" of the United States, said Sunday the Deputy National Security Adviser Ben Rhodes, the sole U.S. reaction at this stage. The spokesman for the U.S. State Department, Marie Harf, refused to comment.

President of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, has meanwhile raised a potential "huge scandal", while the Green MEP Daniel CONH-Bendit called for an immediate breakdown of negotiations on the Free Trade Transatlantic come to be launched, until an agreement has not been signed with the United States on the protection of personal data. Negotiations to this effect, launched in 2011, have not yet succeeded. After the first revelations about Prism, the European Commission had assured that Washington had agreed to inform Europeans. But the promise seems to have been held in Brussels have again called on June 19 answers "as quickly as possible."

Also according to Spiegel, the NSA had even expanded its operations to Brussels there is "more than five years." In 2003, the EU had effectively confirmed discovery of a wiretapping office system several countries - including France, Germany, Spain, the United Kingdom, Austria and Italy - at the Council of the European Union. It is difficult to know if it is the same case, the investigation of the Belgian justice that led to nothing.

Author explosive revelations, former NSA employee Edward Snowden, who has sought political asylum in Ecuador, is blocked for a week at the airport in Moscow, his passport was canceled by the United States, claiming extradition for espionage.


www.france-amerique.com...

Originally posted by Flavian
Spy Agencies spy? No, you don't say.

This again? Seriously?

There is a massive difference between spying on military movements by an enemy, and spying on democracies around the world. There is also a big difference in that the NSA is more powerful than the American government.

What part of this is not sinking in?

People expect the US and UK to be spying on China and Russia, in an effort to discover what technologies they might be working on, what their long term plans are and what they plan to do in the near future. This goes without saying and it's what people would expect from a security agency.

What people don't expect is that our agencies become more powerful than elected government. We don't expect them to be working completely in the dark, without oversight from the highest office and without democratic accountability. We don't expect those spying mechanism to be used to influence democracies worldwide, or to be gathering intelligence on billions of innocent people. We also don't expect these agencies to be using gathered intelligence to harm the economic stability of other nations in favor of their own.

Unelected, unaccountable, all-powerful and seemingly without loyalty to anyone but themselves - this is a form of totalitarianism, and too many people are either too apathetic or too uneducated to understand how their own government has been usurped by these shadow organizations.

reply to post by Bluesma


Good answer Bluesma, much more elegantly put than i can manage.

reply to post by Rocker2013


No, there is absolutely no difference between spying on allies and spying on enemies. If you think there is then perhaps you could explain why? (without being a hypocrite). That isn't me being funny or picking an argument, i am genuinely trying to understand where you are coming from on this.

Industrial and economic espionage has been a huge part of the intelligence community since at least the 1940's, none of this is new or even vaguely surprising. This is also common knowledge and has been for several decades (at least) since files first started becoming declassified.

Originally posted by fiftyfifty
As this huge scandal continues to ripple across the Atlantic, this huge trade deal due to be discussed is now under threat due to the NSA. Admittedly, I haven't kept myself fully up to speed with this so would appreciate the opinions of the more "au fait" members. How will this affect the long term relationship between Europe and the US? It's no wonder the US want Snowden's head on a plate!

Full Story

French President Francois Hollande has said allegations that the US bugged European embassies could threaten a huge planned trade deal. Negotiations over the EU-US pact, the biggest bilateral deal ever negotiated, are due to start on 8 July. Mr Hollande said there could be no negotiations without guarantees spying would stop "immediately". US Secretary of State John Kerry said earlier that activities to protect national security were "not unusual". German Chancellor Angela Merkel's spokesman, Steffen Seibert, said "bugging friends is unacceptable... we are no longer in the Cold War". He added that Germany wanted the deal to go ahead but "mutual trust is necessary in order to come to an agreement".

edit on 1-7-2013 by fiftyfifty because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-7-2013 by fiftyfifty because: (no reason given)

I ve said it before. Obama and his evil empire has practically declared a cold war on everybody.

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by Rocker2013

 

No, there is absolutely no difference between spying on allies and spying on enemies. If you think there is then perhaps you could explain why?

1. America is not in a state of war.
2. Europe is not considered an enemy of America, they are supposed to be allies.
3. The economic nature of this espionage directly threatens billions of people across the continent.

Spying on an foreign power (such as China or Russia) is valid when it comes to military dominance, and economic impact when at war. People expect their security services to be carrying out this work.

Using such tactics against allies, for economic dominance in peacetime, is an act of aggression.