Why can't God just show himself to us?

Originally posted by KaelemJames
reply to post by danielsil18

 

According to the OT. And so he came in flesh which gives us the NT.

He came in flesh, as a man, and we nailed Him to a cross. He healed, preached, raised the dead and forgave us even what we did to Him so we may have eternal life, and we still question.

You asking why does He not show Himself. In flesh He was here. In Spirit we would not be able to see Him as i explained why.

To prove my belief and faith in Him to you is impossible as you don't see things the way i do.

Talking about using our brains and then ask yourself if it is not all up for oneself how use it. Are you using it to try and make sense on that which you don't understand, of earth, or will you try to use it so that you may see life in a spiritual way.

Have you ever gone into deep meditation to get closer on a spiritual level? Or will you just stay away from that and look at life in flesh alone? How does one grow if you choose not to really see and hear, but wait for Him to show you a sign, or Himself. You are asking a question and the answer lies within yourself. If you do not open up to Him you will not see, nor hear.

I cannot prove to anyone what i believe. I wish i could. Each to himself to listen and hear, else it would not be a personal relationship with Him and yourself.

edit on 09/02/2012 by KaelemJames because: (no reason given)

You still have to believe and have faith in God

You even said "you can't prove to anyone what you believe". All you have is a belief, but God expect us to follow his commands or we will be punished for eternity.

Thus my question is why, if he loves us so much, prove to us he is real so we can start repenting and following his commands?

Originally posted by danielsil18

Originally posted by danielsil18

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Do you believe im going to Hell if I don't believe in him?

It's not my place to say where you will and will not go, that is for God to decide.

Romans 10:6
the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

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I think you are more religious than you think since you are quoting the Bible.

Do you believe that those who don't follow God's commands will go to Hell?








Like I said, it's not my place to say where people will and will not go. God will make that choice.

Originally posted by danielsil18
I want to ask everyone why wouldn't God just show himself to us and make us all know he exists.

Christians can't say they know God, they can only say they believe in him and they have faith. But why can't God come and show himself to us, tell us that he is real and that he wants everyone to follow his rules. After that we would all know he is real and start following him. Why would he just leave us a book written by men?

One of the arguments Christians make is that God wanted us to have free will. He wanted us to have the choice to follow or rebel. But the story of Lucifer says that he and other angels rebelled...but they knew God existed. So why would it be any different with us?

So my question arises, why can't God just make us know, not believe or have faith, but know he is real?

God is the one - the only one but he pretends that he is not, he pretends there is something other and chases after that.
God is all there is - he is all that ever appears to exit - but he is playing hide and seek.
It's a great game.

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker




Trust me, many people would still not believe it was him. The Jews are a perfect example of that, they saw his presence for 40 years and still didn't believe.

So despite many historians of that day who wrote and testified to his existence and what He did at that time we have no proof that Jesus was a real story? If you believe that, then you may as well not believe anything that has ever been written throughout history.

edit on 1-7-2013 by RealTruthSeeker because: (no reason given)

It's logical that If God proved to us he was real then noone could disbelieve, we would all know he is real. As for the Jews, you are using the story of Jesus as proof of something when we don't know if his story was true.

As for the sotry of Jesus, I never said that a person named Jesus didn't exist. I meant the stories that he could "cure" and everything else could have been falsified, made up or misjudged. It could have been real too be my point is that we don't know.

Originally posted by danielsil18

Life isn't a game when you get tortured for eternity just for not believing in God.

You talk about life being dull if God shows himself to us.

So you rather choose a fun life and Hell for eternity than a dull life and Heaven for eternity?

Seeing as your asking....I don't get to choose anything. I simply said "if" there is a God then having rock solid proof would negate the life experience. At least in my point of view. Do I wish I had the cheat codes for life? Yes of course I do...I often wish I could get through life on easy street...but at the same time I know that if I have some higher knowledge of God, then it would diminish living this life..to a large extent...Yet according to the Bible this life on earth should be looked at with disdain in favor of the eternal life in heaven...so that's kind of what I think would happen if you knew for sure..life on earth would be meaningless and redundant if you knew for sure there was a heaven....and at the same time with no heaven life has no meaning either...either way this life is one that always ends..so how much value is there in a product that doesn't last forever?

It's a double edged sword like everything else...the more you know the more knowledge you have, but the more knowledge you have the bigger the burden.

I didn't say I believed in God..or that I don't believe in one...I'm agnostic..there might be one and there might not be one...to say definitively you believe either way is rubbish...because there is no proof...everything is circumstantial. And atheists are just as full of it as hardcore religious nuts...they are just as fanatical in many respects and again their arguments against God are also based on circumstantial evidence but you cant prove or disprove something like God...

As for hell...I don't believe in it...but just because I don't believe in it doesn't mean it might not exist....again I don't know...but I don't care either.

I always believed if there is a God looking down on me, then he gets me, and ill be alright...if it turns out there is one and he don't like me, then there is little i can do about that...so no point worrying about hell...if your destined to go there than so be it.

reply to post by danielsil18

Do you expect to see something in particular? As in a bearded old dude sitting on a golden throne?

Maybe you have seen God and haven't realized it yet.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by danielsil18
I want to ask everyone why wouldn't God just show himself to us and make us all know he exists.

Christians can't say they know God, they can only say they believe in him and they have faith. But why can't God come and show himself to us, tell us that he is real and that he wants everyone to follow his rules. After that we would all know he is real and start following him. Why would he just leave us a book written by men?

One of the arguments Christians make is that God wanted us to have free will. He wanted us to have the choice to follow or rebel. But the story of Lucifer says that he and other angels rebelled...but they knew God existed. So why would it be any different with us?

So my question arises, why can't God just make us know, not believe or have faith, but know he is real?

God is the one - the only one but he pretends that he is not, he pretends there is something other and chases after that.
God is all there is - he is all that ever appears to exit - but he is playing hide and seek.
It's a great game.

So God treats life as a game. Let's not mind the people who went to Hell that could have been saved just by being proven by God that he is real.

Originally posted by CloudyNotorious
If you have read the bible In the start of Genesis Certain questions was raised as to wether God had the right to rule, Satan challenged gods right to rule, and if man can live without gods help. God has allowed man to live without help for all these years to prove to Satan and all the angels that were watching the events at that time, Hence God is allowing time for man to prove himself and to prove to Satan he is a wrong. God took away the ability to live forever, and our geins have been degenerating ever since the garden of eden. This is to see if man can live without gods help. Obviously looking at the state of the world at the moment we cant live without his help, so god will step in soon and put right all the wrong. Hope this helps.

So are you saying then that Satan was right?

I sure wish I could convenience people that we need to be self-sufficient and grow up and that having a savior is not really going to help humanity.

Well, it all depends on how you define 'God'. You are talking about God in the classic Christian sense, which I don't agree with personally, but if I was to take a shot at answering your question in that manner I would say that he reveals himself only after the 'game' is finished, to truly test ones heart. That is because I'm assuming if the classical judge-type God actually gave us free-will and wanted to test it fairly he would have to NOT reveal himself to see who is actually 'good' and not just assimilate a race of humans who are good purely because they are aware of the existence of God and thus scared to do otherwise.

If you believe in a more subtle, non-understandable, yet divinely intelligent type of God who has no human qualities and spawned this universe through a process we simply cannot understand, then you are free to observe him EVERYWHERE you look. From the beautiful and vast 'ocean' of space, to the perfect skies, to the amazing set of living creatures, down to the exotic and fundamental plants that allow this chain of intelligence in life to occur. Heck, just the fact that LIFE ITSELF can exist, from the simple concept of inherently pointless atoms and the 4 fundamental forces of nature, that allow all of this to happen. The fact you can feel, physically and emotionally, and form lifelong connections between each other as humans or between humans and animals, even going to the extent of throwing away our own lives to save those we hold dear - these are all manifestations of a higher beauty and complexity that we cannot comprehend yet are stuck right in the middle of.

Either way, if you do not see this 'divinity' in the reality we currently share, and see the beauty in the small as well as the large, then I do quite feel sorry for you . I don't think one necessarily needs a religion or belief system to observe this - you don't even need to believe in any type of 'God', I think most gnostic atheists will agree this universe is an absolutely beautiful and awe-inspiring creation (of whatever sort).

Beyond the walls of intelligence life is divine!

"Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble." - Albert Einstein

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by danielsil18

 

Do you expect to see something in particular? As in a bearded old dude sitting on a golden throne?

Maybe you have seen God and haven't realized it yet.

Why doesn't he prove to us he is real?

If he loved me he would prove to me he is real. Surely he would be smart enough to know that "hints" don't work me.

Originally posted by danielsil18

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by danielsil18

 

Do you expect to see something in particular? As in a bearded old dude sitting on a golden throne?

Maybe you have seen God and haven't realized it yet.

Why doesn't he prove to us he is real?

If he loved me he would prove to me he is real. Surely he would be smart enough to know that "hints" don't work me.

Ok, just out of curiosity....if God is real...and showed himself to you...what would change for you...?
Seriously. Im very interested to know how you would be changed?

Originally posted by DazDaKing
Well, it all depends on how you define 'God'. You are talking about God in the classic Christian sense, which I don't agree with personally, but if I was to take a shot at answering your question in that manner I would say that he reveals himself only after the 'game' is finished, to truly test ones heart. That is because I'm assuming if the classical judge-type God actually gave us free-will and wanted to test it fairly he would have to NOT reveal himself to see who is actually 'good' and not just assimilate a race of humans who are good purely because they are aware of the existence of God and thus scared to do otherwise.

If you believe in a more subtle, non-understandable, yet divinely intelligent type of God who has no human qualities and spawned this universe through a process we simply cannot understand, then you are free to observe him EVERYWHERE you look. From the beautiful and vast 'ocean' of space, to the perfect skies, to the amazing set of living creatures, down to the exotic and fundamental plants that allow this chain of intelligence in life to occur. Heck, just the fact that LIFE ITSELF can exist, from the simple concept of inherently pointless atoms and the 4 fundamental forces of nature, that allow all of this to happen. The fact you can feel, physically and emotionally, and form lifelong connections between each other as humans or between humans and animals, even going to the extent of throwing away our own lives to save those we hold dear - these are all manifestations of a higher beauty and complexity that we cannot comprehend yet are stuck right in the middle of.

Either way, if you do not see this 'divinity' in the reality we currently share, and see the beauty in the small as well as the large, then I do quite feel sorry for you

. I don't think one necessarily needs a religion or belief system to observe this - you don't even need to believe in any type of 'God', I think even most gnostic atheists will even admit this universe is an absolutely beautiful and awe-inspiring creation (of whatever sort).

Beyond the walls of intelligence life is divine!

I never said anything about this world not being beautiful and awesome.

My questions was towards the logic that If we don't follow the commands of God then we would suffer for eternity in Hell, yet God doesn't even prove to us he is real. So how can God punish us for eternity for not following him when we don't even know he is real.

Obviously you believe in a "Higher being", so this question doesn't relate much to your beliefs.

Originally posted by TheBlackHat

Originally posted by danielsil18

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by danielsil18

 

Do you expect to see something in particular? As in a bearded old dude sitting on a golden throne?

Maybe you have seen God and haven't realized it yet.

Why doesn't he prove to us he is real?

If he loved me he would prove to me he is real. Surely he would be smart enough to know that "hints" don't work me.

Ok, just out of curiosity....if God is real...and showed himself to you...what would change for you...?
Seriously. Im very interested to know how you would be changed?

First of all, I would become a Christian and follow God's commands 100%.

You know what changes the most? My afterlife. Instead of suffering in Hell for eternity, I would go to Heaven.

Does it seem like a reasonable change to go to Heaven instead of Hell?

Originally posted by danielsil18

My questions was towards the logic that If we don't follow the commands of God then we would suffer for eternity in Hell, yet God doesn't even prove to us he is real. So how can God punish us for eternity for not following him when we don't even know he is real.

Obviously you believe in a "Higher being", so this question doesn't relate much to your beliefs.

Although I did ramble on a bit about the beauty of the universe, I did also answer your question

Like I said, if the God you believe in genuinely wanted to test the hearts of men and women, with the free will he has given them, he would have to keep himself concealed in my opinion. Why? Because if he did manifest himself clearly then he wouldn't be able to distinguish between who was 'good' because they truly wanted to be good and help their fellow man, and who was good purely for the sake of 'securing' a place in Heaven. Do you understand my point?

Being good out of fear of Hell is NOT a truly 'good' person.

However, this line of argument has many flaws to be honest. Like you said, what about the people who had bad lives in general and thus had bad personalities formed. How would they know to change their way of life, without a strong internal moral compass?

My friend told me once that he believes that if you, in your heart, are aware of whats 'good' and 'bad' then God is free to judge you. But, if your moral compass has been misaligned by the nature of life itself, and you are truly not aware that what you are doing is bad (i.e child soldiers) then God is NOT FREE to judge you.

Originally posted by danielsil18

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by danielsil18
I want to ask everyone why wouldn't God just show himself to us and make us all know he exists.

Christians can't say they know God, they can only say they believe in him and they have faith. But why can't God come and show himself to us, tell us that he is real and that he wants everyone to follow his rules. After that we would all know he is real and start following him. Why would he just leave us a book written by men?

One of the arguments Christians make is that God wanted us to have free will. He wanted us to have the choice to follow or rebel. But the story of Lucifer says that he and other angels rebelled...but they knew God existed. So why would it be any different with us?

So my question arises, why can't God just make us know, not believe or have faith, but know he is real?

God is the one - the only one but he pretends that he is not, he pretends there is something other and chases after that.
God is all there is - he is all that ever appears to exit - but he is playing hide and seek.
It's a great game.

So God treats life as a game. Let's not mind the people who went to Hell that could have been saved just by being proven by God that he is real.

If God proved he was real how would it save anyone from going to hell? I don't understand, sorry.

Originally posted by danielsil18


It's logical that If God proved to us he was real then noone could disbelieve, we would all know he is real. As for the Jews, you are using the story of Jesus as proof of something when we don't know if his story was true.

As for the sotry of Jesus, I never said that a person named Jesus didn't exist. I meant the stories that he could "cure" and everything else could have been falsified, made up or misjudged. It could have been real too be my point is that we don't know.

Again, it would be proof to our generation, just like it was back then. But for people who don't see the event with their own eyes they will still demand proof.

Also, there is not a scholar in history who will say Jesus didn't preform miracles, these facts are well documented. If you don't believe them then you won't believe anything.

I won't post all them lest I be here all day. The one from Josephus who lived at the same time as Jesus is the most popular and can't be refuted by any scholar.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3

Originally posted by DazDaKing

Originally posted by danielsil18

My questions was towards the logic that If we don't follow the commands of God then we would suffer for eternity in Hell, yet God doesn't even prove to us he is real. So how can God punish us for eternity for not following him when we don't even know he is real.

Obviously you believe in a "Higher being", so this question doesn't relate much to your beliefs.

Although I did ramble on a bit about the beauty of the universe, I did also answer your question

Like I said, if the God you believe in genuinely wanted to test the hearts of men and women, with the free will he has given them, he would have to keep himself concealed in my opinion. Why? Because then you wouldn't be able to distinguish between who was 'good' because they truly wanted to be good and help their fellow man, and who was good purely for the sake of 'securing' a place in Heaven. Do you understand my point?

Being good out of fear of Hell is NOT a truly 'good' person.

However, this line of argument has many flaws to be honest. Like you said, what about the people who had bad lives in general and thus had bad personalities formed. How would they know to change their way of life, without a strong internal moral compass?

My friend told me once that he believes that if you, in your heart, are aware of whats 'good' and 'bad' then God is free to judge you. But, if your moral compass has been misaligned by the nature of life itself, and you are truly not aware that what you are doing is bad (i.e child soldiers) then God is NOT FREE to judge you.

edit on 1-7-2013 by DazDaKing because: (no reason given)

I agree with you. We have the same kind of thinking.

But you should know that the Christian belief is that I'm going to Hell even though I'm a good person.

You can be the best person in the world, but if you don't believe in God, you are going to suffer for eternity, sounds logical doesn't it?

I agree that people who try to be good because they fear Hell is not a good person. Which is sometimes ironic that some Christians say that Atheists are immoral when a good deed from an Atheist surely comes from his own moral judgement while a Christians good deed might come from the fear of going to Hell.

Originally posted by danielsil18

Originally posted by TheBlackHat

Originally posted by danielsil18

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by danielsil18

 

Do you expect to see something in particular? As in a bearded old dude sitting on a golden throne?

Maybe you have seen God and haven't realized it yet.

Why doesn't he prove to us he is real?

If he loved me he would prove to me he is real. Surely he would be smart enough to know that "hints" don't work me.

Ok, just out of curiosity....if God is real...and showed himself to you...what would change for you...?
Seriously. Im very interested to know how you would be changed?

First of all, I would become a Christian and follow God's commands 100%.

You know what changes the most? My afterlife. Instead of suffering in Hell for eternity, I would go to Heaven.

Does it seem like a reasonable change to go to Heaven instead of Hell?

You might be surprised if you saw God.
You might not become a Christian after all.
You have a set idea of what God is, yet you have yet to 'see' God.
This is why I said that you may have already seen God, but you didn't realize it. You seem to be looking for what others have told you that God is.

Originally posted by danielsil18

First of all, I would become a Christian and follow God's commands 100%.

You know what changes the most? My afterlife. Instead of suffering in Hell for eternity, I would go to Heaven.

Does it seem like a reasonable change to go to Heaven instead of Hell?

That's interesting...so your telling me, that you don't follow the 10 commandments etc, etc, due to not having solid evidence of God?

That sounds like a load of BS to me.

Christianity, is a rule book on how to live life successfully, for dumb people.. In otherwords you would have to be dumb to only live a Christian life in order to passify a God.

The reason to live a christian life, it to keep the people around you on side, to remain as part of a "functioning" community. When a community functions and shares and looks out for its members, the whole community benefits from improved civilization and infrastructure and security and prosperity.

Its not a coincidence that most of the leaps in our civilization in the western world took place during the last 2000 years, when our people shared a common faith, and that faith being one of compassion and sharing. And yes we all know wars have been conducted in the name of God also, but largely Christianity has benefited society for the most part...regardless of a God or not.

You sound like you want an excuse to live a christian life, and that excuse is God...but thats a ridiculous way to look at being a christian...because if you dont try to live a Christian life, and a moral life you will only end up locked up in prison or living as a bum...either that or you might become president hahaha. The bottom line is Christianity is just a way to live ans stay out of trouble and generally have some peace of mind...it has nothing to do with passifiying God to stay out of hell...because if you don't try to be a Christian and moral person you end up with a living hell in your own mind.

Your looking at being a Christian all wrong.

.

I'll use me an an example:

I don't believe in God, which means I'm going to Hell for not following him.

If God proves to me then I'll repent, convert, etc and become a Christian and follow God.

Then when I die I won't go to Hell for not following God, but I'll go to Heaven for following all his words.

So him proving himself to me will change my outcome from suffering in Hell to enjoying my time in Heaven.