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Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

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posted on Jul, 5 2013 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60


It makes no mention of God's part in the so-called old covenant. Seeing the people failing to abide by it probably did not take the power of a god, but doing something about it did, where only God could get inside people's heads and hearts to change them to the better.
So, like most NT writings, the Christian God stands at arm's length from the OT Law, but is of course always present to throw in a bit of good stuff into the prophecies.

Obviously in Hebrews, the Mosaic law came through angels, and Moses was the mediator. Moses is passed by quickly in Hebrews. Contrast that with Abraham who is mentioned 10 times in Hebrews.

By the strangest quirk of accident last night, when I should have been watching fireworks, I instead discovered that USC (University of Southern California) is host to Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement. Under the discussion concerning HOLY WAR IDEA IN THE HEBREW BIBLE we read:

The Hebrew Bible is a collection of literature spanning many centuries and reflecting a period considerably longer. The meanings of the ideas and institutions contained within it are therefore complex, sometimes even contradictory, and clearly reflect historical and conceptual development. This is certainly the case and with the role of God in war. There is still no scholarly consensus regarding the process and details of the evolution of the ideas of holy war in ancient Israel, and part of the disagreement rests on the dating of early texts. All scholars, however, maintain that the biblical war narratives do not depict the actual history of the events they portray, but rather a literary interpretation. There is also general scholarly consensus that God's role in Israelite warfare evolved from one in which God assists alongside Israel in the actual fighting to one in which God is credited entirely and without human assistance with the protection of Israel.
. . .
Another study (Conrad 1985) observes the different roles of God in war as two paradigms that are exemplified in two types of warriors. In the "Joshua paradigm," God engages actively in fighting battles which eventuate in winning the Land of Israel for the people (Deut.3:2/Num.21:34, Josh. 8:1-2, 10:8, 2Sam. 13:28, 2 Kings 25:24, etc.), while the "Abraham paradigm" represents Israel for whom God wages peace among the nations and promises great posterity (Gen.15:1, 21:17-18, 46:3-4, Ex. 14:13-14, Isaiah 7:4-9, 41:8-16, Jer. 30:10, Neh.4:8, Hag. 2:4-9, etc.). The Joshua warrior paradigm reflects memories of a heroic past when God delivered His people and granted victory in the struggle over the Land, while the Abraham paradigm in the exilic and post-exilic periods reflects Israel's imagining about the future restoration of offspring and a return to the Land.

So the Abraham paradigm, which seems to me, to include polytheism and the treaty making under the names of multiple gods came after the exile, which strangely enough also brings the "One and Only God, who has no partners, and does all things alone" (see Isaiah 44-46).

This makes me wonder: Do two groups of Abrahamic heritage claim the One and Only concept while condemning Abraham himself? Where the hell does that leave Christianity? The mind reels at this point.




posted on Jul, 5 2013 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 





the exile, which strangely enough also brings the "One and Only God, who has no partners, and does all things alone" (see Isaiah 44-46)


there is no 'i' in 'team'. Why would I give my soul, dedicate my life to someone like that? Crazy!



posted on Jul, 5 2013 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity


Why would I give my soul, dedicate my life to someone like that? Crazy!

Crazy & fatalistic. See the discussion here and starting about halfway up the page Letter of prophet Muhammad to Christians. Must See,
I've seen a really big trend toward fatalism in all belief systems, "It's written", they say, "we can't change that." That's the most immoral attitude there can ever be.

My son was following a Western version of Eastern religion. The leader, passed on to his appointed successor, a ludicrously expensive device to be worn on the arm, with huge gems and precious stones set in gold. The purpose of the device was to counter the forces of astrology, so that he could exercise free will. If you are wealthy enough, then you too can purchase such a device, operators are standing by to receive your order.


Seriously. We need some talk of ethics in action that makes a difference!
edit on 5-7-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)





Rockbiter:
They look like big, good, strong hands. Don't they?

(Atreyu looks down saddened.)

I always thought that's what they were. My little friends.
The little man with his racing snail, the Nighthob, even
the stupid bat. I couldn't hold on to them. The nothing
pulled them right out of my hands. I failed.

Atreyu looks down, feeling terrible.
Atreyu:
No you didn't fail. I'm the one who was chosen to stop the nothing.
But I lost the Auryn, I can't find my luck dragon, so I won't be able
to get past the boundaries of Fantasia.

Rockbiter:
Listen, the nothing will be here any minute.
I will just sit here and let it take me away too.
They look like big, good, strong hands. Don't they?

Rockbiter starts crying as Atreyu shakes his head yes and fights his own tears.
Neverending Story

Might as well press on in the wisdom of youtube:
Compare a couple of songs:

My little weak goddess is no match for the big brute go it alone gods, but:


edit on 5-7-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-7-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2013 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by TheIceQueen
 

The logic is from Jesus' OWN perspective in terms of taking a stand for the sake of righteousness, without compromise. It was also designed to place a "double bind" on sin and evil, by sacrificing just that on the flip side (turned out at right angles to itself?), so it's the ultimate demonstration of a love transcendent, and transparent or communicated and made known, in it's action which is Grace in the form of real love, a love capable of transcending sin and evil by accepting full responsibility for it, while at the same time rendering, in the Great Work of the Cross, the ultimate standard of Justice, and Mercy (forgiveness, from the top down).

Because of this Great Work or Magnum Opus on Jesus' part, when inquiring into the generational disorder of sin, we don't come up with an unjust absurdity going back into the mists of time, and are therefore restored to a good-willed, good-natured sense of humor and charm where the height of Justice has been met only with a corresponding Mercy, which asks, even to perform "Magic" (perform great works) not sacrifice, but mercy. "I ask for mercy, not sacrifice."

To understand or to try to understand Jesus' rationale, and God's as a first/last cause in whom Jesus' fate was cast, is to come into receipt of something that, because it's genius surpasses our own, comes to us not by expectation don't you see. It defies and confounds us in our ego and our pride with something being all-or-nothing and without compromise, that we cannot evade, and why would we want to (go back to being "orphaned" in our own sin)? And by functioning serendipitously as the faculty for discovering hidden treasure not sought after (not by expectation) when the thing communicated is received, it appears, quite suddenly as a pleasant suprise "oh so I AM loved by God unconditionally!".

The OP cannot "compute" it, as a story set apart, but when one examines the Gospels with an aim towards understanding the person of Jesus and his mission or sent-calling, then at some point the nut cracks open and the glory of the transcendent Love of God shines through the apparent ugliness and darkness of it (the cross), which is nullified in it's Grace or love made known in action, indeed like a light shining in darkness, the perfect light even the light of God or Christ-consciousness, informed by the perfect love and then communicated so that it might be made known and would never be forgotten, which it hasn't, and I thank God and even church, for that, that we're still talking about it, meaning that the possibility that Jesus will be fully understood, some day, still exists even now..

But wait there's more! That Jesus was able to take it all on AND enjoy the resurrected life (survived) only increases the magnitude of the genius at work whereby we who try to sympathize with him and his intentionality, sympathize not only with the sorrow and suffering inherent in human evil and ignorance which placed him on the cross (as expected), but also with the joy of his liberation from the tomb and entrance into the resurrected life (see my avatar for more). In other words, where the last shall be first and the first, last, Jesus held in reserve, for us, everything of value or the very best of the best, for last.

It's the image of a great Triumph of the highest order over human sin, evil and ignorance, including our own, whereby we can appropriate the inheritance prepared from before the foundation of the world in SPITE of ourselves whereby there is absolutely nothing that we did or CAN do to either earn or deserve it ie: it's absolutely free of charge, even though, in the final analysis, there is always a price to be paid.

Can't you see how wonderful and potentially amuzing and hilarious this is?! Can you see and appreciate it's utter genius in how to deal with the very worst part of us as human beings, able to contend with us in the darkest depths of our being and secret lives and offer something that's actually formative and functional and therefore curative as the very Grace of God (love in action made manifest)?

His own hear his "voice" (character). If you are curious, open your mind and your heart and sit down and re-read the four Gospels as if for the first time paying special attention to Jesus' teachings and mission, and then tell me that you cannot detect his smile, his humor, mirth and charm in what he was doing, no matter how sorrowful some of it might have been for him as "the man of sorrows" and in that regard, think of his early years as a "bastard child" and how sorrowful that might have been for him, and how it was he suddenly returned to the scene a thirty-something year old man, circling Jerusalem from the outside, in, but seemingly armed to the teeth in regards to his enlightenment, debating skills, even the working of signs and wonders ie: trained Magus?

How he handled the cards that he was dealt is also just a thing of magnificent beauty and extraordinary accomplishment, quite literally, to a t.

You must come to see and recognize the utter genius involved where things like universal truth, justice and wisdom are prime factors and motivators or as a catalyst to creative action, and all this in human form as it was intended from the very origin of all creation, as if God was ahead of the curve the whole time, from the very beginning (that's FUNNY!). Done, perfectly and without flaw or failure. Thank you Jesus!

It's utterly magnificent! A marvel of marvels for those given to appreciate it's farthest reaching implication and significance.

The least we can do is to try to understand and comprehend without making any assumptions from a certain and rather narrow POV which is anti-religious or anti-theological in orientation.

Best regards,

NAM


edit on 5-7-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2013 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Erasing all of sin by allowing the worst of sins to be committed on his own son? Pure genius.



posted on Jul, 5 2013 @ 08:16 PM
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yumpin yimminy!!....can anyone just say what they have to say without all the esoteric poetic waxing about nothing.Yahoshua was crucified then resurrected(not reincarnated) it was a very,very,very good thing.



posted on Jul, 5 2013 @ 08:48 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

To uphold the twin pillars of Justice and Mercy (see Tree of Life), without compromise, YES, genius, but it would mean, also, "merely" (to quote C.S. Lewis) that Jesus as son of God, was/is really God (Spirit remains the same), but through the human being, as a messianic expectation and hope (prophecy) fulfilled, yes it's genius, provided Jesus got to both have his cake and eat it too (get his own, but shared since the prime motive was always and forever "we" or "us").

Think double-reverse sting, double-bind, hoodwink, with Jesus the one released (from the tomb) by the Grace of God and perhaps with the help of a few friends in high places (Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, even Pontias Pilate of all people from whose authority the body went into their custody, early, so as not to defile the passover (it was Preparation Day) without his legs being broken - shhh don't tell anyone).

This is why Leonardo da Vinci pushed John the Baptist, Jesus' own initiator, as the first true Martyr for the cause, as a plan he and Jesus came to recognize as one hatched from antiquity, so he's saying basically that it's not fair that John got the raw end of the stick, so to speak (I know, bad one), while Jesus flew away having survived the ordeal (by a mere thread) as intended "I have the authority to lay it down and the authority to take it back up again. This command I have received from my father". (a full moon at a certain lunar eclipse, symbolizing a full life, not a half-life lived, perhaps?). But that is not to say that Jesus wasn't obedient, unto the very point of death, nor that he didn't serve as some sort of one-time only "Bodhisatva" in assuming the sins and sorrows, suffering and ignorance of the world, while holding firm (not running away) all the way down the line, even head to head with an evil empire, without compromise (upholding a standard of truth and righteousness)..

Holy Infants Embracing,
by Leonardo da Vinci



Jesus is the slightly younger (and fairer) one kissing John who isn't reciprocating while placing his infant hand like a claw at Jesus' throat. Jesus is the one with the birds flying overhead, and the darkness behind John's head already cutting in. What a mischievous and wicked sense of humor on da Divinci I tell you.

The implication here is that the conspiracy transcends the children, and here da Vinci is trying to place God into an irreconcilable dilemma, and it's not without it's dark humor that's for sure.. Same thing when you take a good look at "The Last Supper".



Zoom+Scroll Leonardo da Vinci's Blasphemous Joke "The Last Supper" in High Res.

Da Vinci's Genius is in recognizing the genius of something else, but it's as if he's trying to put Christianity and Jesus on trial whereby the left hand really did know what the right hand was doing all along, whereas poor John had to lose his head in Herod's dungeon, also per plan.

It's a whole ONION of utter genius and deep depths of mystery, and love, it's got it all the whole kit and caboodle, as an all-inclusive, all-or-nothing proposition without compromise that's so reasonable it's unreasonably reasonable, and so compelling that it's capable of evoking a loving response from those who receive, understand, and then and only then, believe what they come to know to be true and authentic which is Jesus' "voice".

Re-read Jesus again (the red parts in the Gospels) and then come back and tell me that the man was not a Genius, him and John both of them (as co-conspirators and even prophets).

Honoring John however vital and wonderful that is, doesn't diminish one iota the larger plan, and John knew what he was getting into when he went after Herod for marrying his own brother's wife while he was still alive and shouting it out from the rooftops. He (and Jesus) would have been well aware the fate that ultimately awaited prisoners in Herod's dungeon that he could never release.

Genius, through and through, all the way.

And CONSPIRACY? oh my, it doesn't get any more conspiratorial, that's for sure! It was a conspiracy of reason and logic itself (logos) conceived yes from before the foundation of the world, for the sake of love, truth, and justice, and moreso, reconciliation and spiritual and psychological reintegration, even evolution. It calls on us also to have the courage to be happy and to live more fully, "even to the full and to overflowing!"


edit on 5-7-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2013 @ 08:54 PM
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And humor!



posted on Jul, 11 2013 @ 06:18 PM
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THE WORD OF GOD is foolishness to those that choose to reject GOD!=WILL GOD BE YOUR FATHER,YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR OR WILL HE BE YOUR FINAL JUDGE??==This is one of the danger-signals which God has placed across the sinner's pathway to Hell. At every turn of the Broad Road there are notice boards giving warning of the Destruction which lies ahead. The Sunday School teacher, the prayers of godly parents, the sermons of faithful preachers, the little Gospel tract, the warnings of conscience, the innate fear of death, the declarations of Holy 'Writ, are so many obstacles which God places in the way of the sinner-so many barriers to the Lake of Fire.
One chief reason why God wrote the Bible was to warn the sinner of the awful consequences of sin, and to bid him flee from the wrath to come. Our text is one of these warnings. There are many such scattered throughout the Bible. "Be sure your sin will find you out" (Num. 32:23). "It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb.9:27). "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:5). "How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?" (Heb. 2:3).
The Fact of God's Wrath

Men try to forget that there is such a thing as Divine wrath. The realization of it makes them uneasy, so they endeavor to banish all thought of it. At times they are terrified at the bare mention of God's wrath, hence their anxiety to dismiss the subject from their minds. Others try to believe there is no such thing. They argue that God is loving and merciful, and therefore God's Anger is merely a bogey with which to frighten naughty children. But how do we know that God is Loving and Merciful? The heathen do not believe that He is. Nor does Nature clearly and uniformly reveal the fact. The answer is, we know God to be such, because His Word so affirms. Yes, and the same Bible which tells of God's Mercy speaks of His Wrath, and as a matter of fact, refers more frequently (much more so) to His anger than it does to His love.
The fact of God's Wrath is clearly revealed in the Scriptures. "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; but he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men" (Rom. 1:18). "Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience" (Eph. 5:6). ==WILL GOD BE YOUR FATHER,YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR OR WILL HE BE YOUR FINAL JUDGE?? YOU GET TO CHOOSE!!!



posted on Jul, 11 2013 @ 06:52 PM
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reply to post by GISMYS
 


More unoriginal thoughts. It's as though you are terrified of thinking for yourself. Is there a single independent bone in your body? What's the problem, eh? Why are you so terrified of having any power, any control?

It's so mind-boggling, the lengths people go to to avoid taking the bull by the horns. That bull is sitting there, waiting for you to take charge of your life, but some would rather take its horns, give the bull complete control of what happens to them, because they believe it's the noble and selfless thing to do.

There is no honor in sacrificing the self for the self. And make no mistake, that's exactly what it is. You sacrifice yourself now so you have everything you want later. That's abhorrent. You live your life on your own terms, or you die on your own terms. There's no point to living any other way. You sell your only chance of liberty for an eternity of ignorant bliss? Disgusting.
edit on 11-7-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 11 2013 @ 08:59 PM
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reply to post by GISMYS
 

Men try to forget that there is such a thing as Divine wrath.
In the New Testament, it is saying that God is opposed to evil acts and you can see what those things are easily enough if people were to have just looked at the Mosaic Law.
As far as life and death goes, it is natural for people to die, which is an observable fact.
If someone was wanting to have any sort of decent life beyond that ordinary absence from the land of the living, then the appropriate course of action is to appeal to God to help you out in that, preferably by being resurrected at some future point in time.
If you had been living wickedly, then God may be disinclined to do that, and find it a more reasonable thing, for the sake of people in general, to leave you right where you ended up once you died.



posted on Jul, 11 2013 @ 09:56 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I think an afterlife just gives people an excuse not to do their best in this one. That's why they want to believe in one so badly. The idea of a god just makes them feel better about entertaining that notion.
edit on 11-7-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 11 2013 @ 10:41 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

This is coming from someone who spent some time in Hell and was brought back to life, so I do believe in God, not in a theoretical sense but from practical experience.



posted on Jul, 12 2013 @ 01:35 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by TheIceQueen
 


I don't have to find it completely logical and sensible. The logical and sensible thing would have been for a Holy and righteous God to end human existence at the first sin. So I'm thankful He does things that don't make the logical sense on paper.

edit on 29-6-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)


You think it's logical and sensible to induce genocide at the first sign of wrong doing? Are you dense or just completely indoctrinated?
edit on 12-7-2013 by Tetrarch42 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2013 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by Tetrarch42
 



You think it's logical and sensible to induce genocide at the first sign of wrong doing? Are you dense or just completely indoctrinated?


This is one of those times when it becomes clear just how thin the line between absolute good and absolute evil really is. This is what they mean when they say to be careful how deeply you engross yourself in the purging...sometimes, you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

See how closely they are related? When justice becomes blinded by its own righteousness, it forgets the futility of erasing imperfection from the world. When ambition becomes blinded by greed, it forgets the futility of eliminating all meaning in the world through intolerance.

"Good" and "evil" - or, as others call them, light and dark - are both equally necessary. Even binary, the most basic language in the world, requires two digits in order to express itself. There is a minimum of two sides to everything. To impose a singular perspective on anything is to detract from its inherent meaning. You will live your life not knowing that there's a whole other side to the coin, and without that understanding, your comprehension remains crippled...which affects your approach to this reality.

And then, when you create a species only to discover that you made a mistake, you don't pause to even consider that perhaps their flaws could be optimized for a productive future. You don't even think for a second that perhaps there's an alternative solution to what in your mind is a grievous development that must be abolished at once. All you know is that something contradicts your nature, and is therefore unsavory and impure. It must be destroyed.

And in that instant, you are hand in hand with the very force you are trying to defeat. "God" isn't so different from us after all, is he?



edit on 12-7-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2013 @ 05:41 PM
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So you think it's morally acceptable to induce genocide at the first sign of wrong doing?



posted on Jul, 12 2013 @ 06:15 PM
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reply to post by Tetrarch42
 


I'm saying its an extremist response, and evidence that both ends of extremism are much closer than we suspect.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by TheIceQueen
 

The meaning of Jesus death was the resurrection.

He defeated death on behalf of all who believe in Him.



posted on Feb, 11 2014 @ 04:16 PM
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troubleshooter
reply to post by TheIceQueen
 

The meaning of Jesus death was the resurrection.

He defeated death on behalf of all who believe in Him.



I don't think defeating death is a good idea. The candle is only given meaning by the shadow it holds at bay. Without death, life is as meaningful as a quintillion dollars sitting in your swimming pool. When you can buy anything in the world in as much time as it takes to use the bathroom, when you've had your fun and burned money on architecture and properties and toys and adventures, when you've experienced everything you've ever wanted to be part of and done it again and again until you've grown tired of it, when you've been and seen and done everything you ever had the slightest compulsion to witness or experience, what's left to do but sit around and await your destruction? There is no triumph without challenge, no joy without sorrow, no pleasure without pain, and no life without death.

Those who wish to abolish death have never really appreciated life. There are those who have lived full and fantastic lives, who welcome death with open arms like an old friend they haven't seen in years. When there's nothing to hold on to, there's nothing to fear. So perhaps your aversion to death is your fear of something else.
edit on 11-2-2014 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 23 2014 @ 11:22 PM
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I think Jesus was killed. In ancient times people weren't dumber than we are.
Religion was a real practice. Not only metaphors. They also deeply understood science.
Those histories don't make any sense to us because we lost all records of these holy & sacred times.
Jesus represents a righteous human being tortured by the evil forces of what Christians know as ''Satan''.
Killing and Violence was feared and created confusion to holy people. They were innocently living at peace.
Then some strange and unknown force came up to Earth, generating mental illness and everything lost meaning.



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