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Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

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posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 11:03 AM
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sorry i didnt read all the pages to see what has been said.

To get to the root of the matter and understand everything you have to go back before jesus was born. The Jews had festival yearly known as the day of atonement (Yom Kippur) in which all of the sins from everyone was placed onto a goat that was sent into the wilderness as a sacrifice. Its in leviticus if you want to look it up. It is that ceremony that jesus was taking the place of so that no sacrifices would need to be made any longer.

i could go into more detail about it but i feel that it would be better if you are interested to study it own your own.




posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by TheIceQueen
This is something that I've wanted to inquire to people about for a little while now.. Keep in mind, I am not anti-Christian or whatever, and I am just trying to understand the logic behind this..

Jesus's crucifixion is seen as a symbol of god's love and forgiveness and so on.. 'Jesus died on the cross in order for our sins to be forgiven', etc (you get the point). What I don't understand is how and the hell that is supposed to correlate with one another in some sort of way that christians discuss and view as being perfectly logical or something? Has it ever struck anyone that it makes no logical sense what so ever?

How is god sending his 'only son' to earth, to be betrayed and then brutally massacred in order for him to forgive the sins of his own creation (human beings- us) logical what so ever? I just don't understand.. Christians use/discuss/preach about this constantly as if it makes any logical sense.. Why and the HELL would god choose to/need to/DESIRE to send his only son to earth to be killed in order to forgive us?

I mean jesus, (ironically expression is on topic here) that's pretty brutal and as some would say 'hardcore'.. Why would he have the desire, let alone need to do such a thing AT ALL let alone in order to forgive beings that he created, allegedly, to be exactly as they are (as christians also say)? It makes little sense to me, what do you think? Christians/etc can you please make sense of this for me?



I hope you came prepared to receive numerous lengthy biblical reasons to your query, and no actual logical explanation. Because there is none. You're right. It doesn't make sense. None of it. The fact that Christianity is a religion that revolves around suffering, submission, allegiance and guilt should be a clue that it's illogical to begin with. Spirituality is supposed to be about unconditional love. You can pretty much close the book after that.


The blind can not see and the deaf can not hear.

How do you teach a blind man to see or a deaf man to hear? These are the questions you ask.

Logic is all you have and it will never satisfy you or the others.



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by TheIceQueen
 

Please bear with my lack of writing skills
I have not read all of the other replies, but in a simple truthful response I will share what I know. First you have to understand what Einstein realized, "The more I delve into the mysteries of the universe, then more convinced I am that some power or influence has placed it there for our discovery."
I use this just to show that some science recognizes a greater being.

Before the world was you lived as a spirit child of a loving Father in heaven. He is the God of all of us, yet our Father as well. In that state you grew in his presence until you reached a level where in order to advance you needed to take on a mortal form. Because living in the presence of God you were limited in the sense that His kingdom is holy and perfect. On earth our memory of our pre-mortal life would be limited, thus we could act for ourselves, and be who we are inside. We would answer these question in our mortality, are we those who would seek to do right with one another or are we selfish and self serving. Thus this life is a testing ground a probational period to see if we can learn and abide by Gods laws.
God, knowing that we would be mortal and prone to mistakes, provided for us a way to become clean again, that if we were a thief or a liar or any number of things, we could rid ourselves of this title and attribute.

Simply put for a very deep subject....... Knowing we would be unable to pay for our sins ourselves, God sent His son. A man who walked in perfection all the days of his life; Owing the universe nothing for sin. He was tortured and sacrificed for things He did not do, and yet being the Son of God he could have stopped it at anytime, but He knew the importance of the sacrifice; So He gave His life for me and you.
Thus he was owed much by the laws of justice. He took what was owed Him and payed the price for all who would come unto Him. From the beginning of this earth till it's last days. Why, so that we might be clean of our sins, and be able to walk back into our Fathers kingdom, because no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God.
God can only be God if His kingdom has order, thus he is a God of order. He is a God of Love, Justice, and Mercy, but in His order one cannot rob the other

You see, you are not from earth, we are visitors here, we are from our Fathers Kingdom. Everything else around us are props on the stage of mortal existence.



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 




Or is it not more in conformity with reason, that every soul, for certain mysterious reasons (I speak now according to the opinion of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Empedocles, whom Celsus frequently names), is introduced into a body, and introduced according to its deserts and former actions?



It can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body... then it is beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrariwise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things their bodies are once more annihilated. They are ever vanishing and ever reappearing. —Origen


Yes, Origen wrote on behalf of the belief of pre-existence and yes, he did ruminate about the incarnation of the soul of Jesus. But he went further than that and went on to discuss and contemplate the occasions of every soul's existence in various bolidly incarnations, as the are ever vanishing and ever reappearing.

For some reason, you just can't comprehend or follow the wandering mind of Origen in this document.








edit on 1-7-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 11:12 AM
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also i feel i need to add something. To understand the happenings of the past you need to put yourself in the mindset of those that lived it. In that time the sacrifice of Jesus made sense to the people because they knew the traditions and lived them. when we try to make sense of it today as pertaining to our own culture and traditions much of the symbolism is lost in translation so to speak.



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by Fraudfinder

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by TheIceQueen
This is something that I've wanted to inquire to people about for a little while now.. Keep in mind, I am not anti-Christian or whatever, and I am just trying to understand the logic behind this..

Jesus's crucifixion is seen as a symbol of god's love and forgiveness and so on.. 'Jesus died on the cross in order for our sins to be forgiven', etc (you get the point). What I don't understand is how and the hell that is supposed to correlate with one another in some sort of way that christians discuss and view as being perfectly logical or something? Has it ever struck anyone that it makes no logical sense what so ever?

How is god sending his 'only son' to earth, to be betrayed and then brutally massacred in order for him to forgive the sins of his own creation (human beings- us) logical what so ever? I just don't understand.. Christians use/discuss/preach about this constantly as if it makes any logical sense.. Why and the HELL would god choose to/need to/DESIRE to send his only son to earth to be killed in order to forgive us?

I mean jesus, (ironically expression is on topic here) that's pretty brutal and as some would say 'hardcore'.. Why would he have the desire, let alone need to do such a thing AT ALL let alone in order to forgive beings that he created, allegedly, to be exactly as they are (as christians also say)? It makes little sense to me, what do you think? Christians/etc can you please make sense of this for me?



I hope you came prepared to receive numerous lengthy biblical reasons to your query, and no actual logical explanation. Because there is none. You're right. It doesn't make sense. None of it. The fact that Christianity is a religion that revolves around suffering, submission, allegiance and guilt should be a clue that it's illogical to begin with. Spirituality is supposed to be about unconditional love. You can pretty much close the book after that.


The blind can not see and the deaf can not hear.

How do you teach a blind man to see or a deaf man to hear? These are the questions you ask.

Logic is all you have and it will never satisfy you or the others.


I haven't asked anything, actually. haha.

Speak for yourself man, religion makes you blind and deaf. And in that sense, youre right. I cannot teach a person blinded by faith, or deafened by lies how to see the truth or hear reason.

I don't know if you've noticed, but logic as all ANYONE has. Anything else is just chaos, and what could it possibly contribute to order? If your religion is such an illogical one, then why don't you do the opposite of what it preaches? Since, you know, logic is all we mere peasants have, you must be so far above logic that you obviously know that the illogical thing to do would be to act chaotically and randomly? Yet you do not. You follow your doctrine as logically laid before you, just like everyone else. So don't tell me logic is all I have. It's all you have too brother.



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 11:29 AM
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reply to post by TheIceQueen
 



That my friend is the billion dollar question, even for us Catholics!
Because we don’t see the world like God does, it’s going to be difficult to comprehend or understand his purpose! Jesus thru his actions has taught us how to carry our cross, accept are sufferings in life as payment for the sins of the world to offset the damage caused by evil!

God wanted to reset the balance of life by giving us a second chance after the fall of Adam and Eve, not only talking the talk but by walking the walk! Thru his Son he accomplish this saying: “see I ask the same from my Son as I ask of you, and if you follow my Son by being good, carrying your cross, love God with all your heart and Love your neighbor you will live forever in my Kingdom. In my Kingdom there are many dwelling, if there wasn’t I would have told you!



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 11:35 AM
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Whoa! Religion, of ANY kind, not making sense? That's crazt talk sir!

Religions depend on followers not demanding logic. Believing in some all mighty being that's keeping score on all of us required a suspension of logic. Self-hypnosis is helpful too. Just an opinon, which by the way, is just as valid as ANY 'established' religion. One difference though, I'm no killing people for not believing what I believe.



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by TheIceQueen
 


I don't know if anybody has already put this - I am at work on teabreak, but just wanted to answer...

It's basically a blood sacrifice. If you look at the Torah, there is a list of sins and which animals need to be killed as payment. Something like a dove for a small sin to an ox for a large sin.

As Jesus was human and the Son of God, his blood was "top level" and so he was the sarifice to pay for all the sins of humanity. This is why he took on the sins of the world before he died.

Just so you know - I am not religious at all. When I read the bible it was from a story point of view rather than looking for truth, and this is the conclusion I came to after reading itm, so hope it makes sense!



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by MarkJS


The bible says that:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.1 Corin. 1:18 NKJV


Is perishing something to be avoided? Is that the purpose: to avoid perishing?

If a grain of wheat is planted as a seed, and the grain says, "No, I will not die, I will take my immortal soul and keep it."

Then, the grain is no longer a seed. As it rots in the ground, it is reduced to being only fertilizer food for the seeds that didn't refuse to perish.

Maybe Christianity fails to think about this.
edit on 1-7-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by windword

It can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body... then it is beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrariwise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things their bodies are once more annihilated. They are ever vanishing and ever reappearing. —Origen


Yes, Origen wrote on behalf of the belief of pre-existence and yes, he did ruminate about the incarnation of the soul of Jesus. But he went further than that and went on to discuss and contemplate the occasions of every soul's existence in various bolidly incarnations, as the are ever vanishing and ever reappearing.

I will ask you again, for the third or maybe fourth time, for a link to that text appearing in the writings of Origen on Early Christian Writings.

Barring that, I do not believe that is an authentic quote of Origen, as the phrase "They are ever vanishing and ever reappearing" is not found in a site search of Early Christian Writings.



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


That quote can be found in the book
"A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church"
edited by Philip Schaff, Henry Wac on page 244.

And can be found here: LINK

The book is available in a free ebook download.

We really should have this discussion over here: www.abovetopsecret.com...


edit on 1-7-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 12:32 PM
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First of all great post and question about the logic of it all. Here's a second question. I have read some of the replies on this. Some quote the bible others give there true opinions.
The bottom line here is this....
God knows everything and everything has already been written. Therefore, there is no such thing as free will, because everything has already been per-determined
God is all knowing... and again already been written. Soooooooo If GOD knew we were going to be sinners, WHY THE HELL DID YOU WASTE YOURE TIME CREATING US IN THE FIRST PLACE.... wheres the logic in that. LOL
I know someone is going to post, because the reward for doing good on this planet in life is going to heaven. Blah blah blah.
To me the whole religion thing makes no sense to me at all.
Well guess Ill find out the truth when I die. Again great post



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by windword


I am leaning toward the belief that the Jesus character of the Bible is a composite figure of numerous messianic figures and his death symbolizes the death of the Jewish temple and all the men, women and children that were killed in the "Jewish Wars."

At least you have also concluded that the Old Testament god was made up.

Some other people may use your statement "his death symbolizes the death of the Jewish temple and all the men, women and children" as the means to turn around and say that since Jesus was a Jew, he confirmed the validity of the Old Testament god and therefore all Gentiles must repent and restore the temple and be ruled by the Jews.

Of course though, if Jesus did in fact pronounce that Jewish expectation based on Old Testament prophecy of invincibility of Jerusalem was deeply flawed and that people should flee Jerusalem rather than make pilgrimage to Jerusalem, it's a completely different story.

I don't think Jesus can be used to back up a human chosen status based on physical genetic inheritance.



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
 


That quote can be found in the book
"A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church"
edited by Philip Schaff, Henry Wac on page 244.

And can be found here:

Thank you.

What you are missing is that what you have quoted is a letter of St. Jerome's, who was condemning Rufinus of Aquileia, who had translated the works of Origen and had intentionally changed them in the process, so the accuracy of that quote is questionable.

Now, contrast that with this:


In this place it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I should fall into the dogma of transmigration, which is foreign to the church of God, and not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the Scriptures; (Origen's Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew 13:1)

There, he explicitly rejects reincarnation, and goes on in the rest of the book to explain why it is not a Christian belief, making a logical argument against it. Now those are Origen's words, and it's not a "well, he might be talking about reincarnation" situation -- he directly rejects it, by name, says that it is not a church doctrine and never has been, is not reflected in scripture and argues against it from reason.

Once again, I have hope that this ends the discussion of whether or not Origen taught reincarnation, now that you have his own words saying that he did not.



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by Blindmancc
 


For those wanting the answers. Blindmancc has'em. However, you must remember the version he has presented is the shortened version of the condensed story. It is the most logical version. And I am an atheist.



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 12:58 PM
link   

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by Fraudfinder

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by TheIceQueen
This is something that I've wanted to inquire to people about for a little while now.. Keep in mind, I am not anti-Christian or whatever, and I am just trying to understand the logic behind this..

Jesus's crucifixion is seen as a symbol of god's love and forgiveness and so on.. 'Jesus died on the cross in order for our sins to be forgiven', etc (you get the point). What I don't understand is how and the hell that is supposed to correlate with one another in some sort of way that christians discuss and view as being perfectly logical or something? Has it ever struck anyone that it makes no logical sense what so ever?

How is god sending his 'only son' to earth, to be betrayed and then brutally massacred in order for him to forgive the sins of his own creation (human beings- us) logical what so ever? I just don't understand.. Christians use/discuss/preach about this constantly as if it makes any logical sense.. Why and the HELL would god choose to/need to/DESIRE to send his only son to earth to be killed in order to forgive us?

I mean jesus, (ironically expression is on topic here) that's pretty brutal and as some would say 'hardcore'.. Why would he have the desire, let alone need to do such a thing AT ALL let alone in order to forgive beings that he created, allegedly, to be exactly as they are (as christians also say)? It makes little sense to me, what do you think? Christians/etc can you please make sense of this for me?



I hope you came prepared to receive numerous lengthy biblical reasons to your query, and no actual logical explanation. Because there is none. You're right. It doesn't make sense. None of it. The fact that Christianity is a religion that revolves around suffering, submission, allegiance and guilt should be a clue that it's illogical to begin with. Spirituality is supposed to be about unconditional love. You can pretty much close the book after that.


The blind can not see and the deaf can not hear.

How do you teach a blind man to see or a deaf man to hear? These are the questions you ask.

Logic is all you have and it will never satisfy you or the others.


I haven't asked anything, actually. haha.

Speak for yourself man, religion makes you blind and deaf. And in that sense, youre right. I cannot teach a person blinded by faith, or deafened by lies how to see the truth or hear reason.

I don't know if you've noticed, but logic as all ANYONE has. Anything else is just chaos, and what could it possibly contribute to order? If your religion is such an illogical one, then why don't you do the opposite of what it preaches? Since, you know, logic is all we mere peasants have, you must be so far above logic that you obviously know that the illogical thing to do would be to act chaotically and randomly? Yet you do not. You follow your doctrine as logically laid before you, just like everyone else. So don't tell me logic is all I have. It's all you have too brother.


You are wrong.

You are blind and deaf.



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 01:18 PM
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reply to post by jaduguru


Sin is basically "Missing a bulls eye" on the Spiritual game of arrows. IF You dont hit the bulls eye .. then you SIN. Its not a "bad" thing .. its what was Promised. You are a Bad Marksman !

Surely, you jest! I was top archer in college!


Lets say your on a gun range .. and the Range Master sets a target so small .. so distant that you could not Possibly Hit the target on a perfect clear day ( oh yea .. the wind is blowing at like 40 knots and changes directions every 5 seconds ).

I set up my own targets of specified size and specified distance with specified time limits. 50 and 25 yard sharpshooter here!

I've never tried 600 yard or 1000 yard though, where wind is a significant factor. So I guess I'm a loser.

Just messing with you.
You did specify "spiritual game of arrows"

Excerpt from The Secrets of HWAWG

When I saw Artemis shoot
I threw down my bow,
"Let me but carry your arrows, and I will be content"

"Foolish man", said she,
"Do you believe that I taught Chiron the art?
No! He taught me,

Pick up your bow,
we have shooting to do."

edit on 1-7-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 01:20 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


Right..............

What evidence do you have Jerome deliberately mistranslated the writings of Origen? So, you reject the translation by Jerome, which was written hundreds of years before the church banned the teachings of reincarnation and proceeded to burn and rewrite Origen texts, as being mistranslated. Fine.

I reject your "newly discovered" "Origen's commentary on the "Gospel of Matthew", that just happened to be contrary to his previous writing and were discovered and translated just in time to refute Shirely McClain's book, "Out on a Limb".

Besides the fact that these writings contradict his earlier writing, during the life time of Origen, who was born in 185 AD, the gospels were still being compiled and not yet a coherent set of books that we have today. These books of the Gospels were compiled by Greek scholars (far away from the land of the advent of disciples) from oral traditions and anonymous sources, and were works in progress for decades after decades and into the next hundreds of years.

Origen may have had input on and discussed these oral tales from anonymous sources, but I reject these documents, that you present and claim to be virgin writings of Origen as fraudulent and/or interpolated.





edit on 1-7-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 1 2013 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by jaduguru
I think this thread has gotten Way off track.

The OP's question is an old and valid question for those of us that live in this world today.
" Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic? "I think You would have to understand Sin in and of itself.Sin is for most people an evil doing .. or a "bad choice" against the workings of God.However .. Sin is Not like that at all.Sin is basically "Missing a bulls eye" on the Spiritual game of arrows. IF You dont hit the bulls eye .. then you SIN. Its not a "bad" thing .. its what was Promised. You are a Bad Marksman !Well Duh !! Ok . you want this in simple terms .. I can understand that. I will do it for you if you care to read further ..Lets say your on a gun range .. and the Range Master sets a target so small .. so distant that you could not Possibly Hit the target on a perfect clear day ( oh yea .. the wind is blowing at like 40 knots and changes directions every 5 seconds ). You can try and try and try .. but you will NEVER hit the Mark. .. .. That is Sin. Not Hitting the Mark. ( Yes its a setup for you .. you will never ever win ) Kinda like the Kobayashi Maru in the Star Trek series .. its an unbeatable situation.So in the Long term the whole thing is a Setup. Your participation is up to you now.The old way is No longer required. You dont have to build temples and sacrifice your Best of the best wheat and livestock.
Your in .. Your in !!

So the ONE person that Could hit the Mark Showed us all that you can be/will be directly connected to the One .. again ... It does not matter at this point. It is what it IS NOW !

Be who you are .. Dont confuse Yourself on religion .. dont confuse yourself on How the Programer "hit the Enter Button" . .. The Program is running .. Dont try to understand the program .. understand that the Enter button was pushed.
JG.



Me thinks you need to watch what you are saying.Someone may understand it....


Still to this day it amazes me how folks like....wait.....LOVE to argue about nothing.for 15 pages .. ...nothing(well.. almost nothing).Words that have no meaning spoken of as if it was Truth because it was read in a book!

You are absolutely correct ALL is now.The most simplistic concepts fly over the head of blind men wearing the blinders of the doctrines of men.Thank God GOD has hidden this from the "wise"(sic unwise) of "this "world" in the valley of the shadow of death.As I said I am always amazed of the complete foolishness that can enter a mans mind and live there in belief.There's a helluva a lot of missing the mark by a universe or two zillion going on.However it's all in the infinite equation that's starts with 0+1=1..that is a hard as hell number to get past even though "the many" are stuck on 1+2=3.

0,1,1,2,3,4,5,7,8,11,13,18,21,29,34,47,55,76,89,123,144,199,322......out....


edit on 1-7-2013 by Rex282 because: (no reason given)




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