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DEBATE FINAL. BlackJackal V Rain King: Alien Visits

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posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 11:49 AM
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The topic for this debate is "Aliens probably have visited Earth."

BlackJackal will be arguing for this proposition and will open the debate.
Rain King will argue against this proposition.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

No post will be longer than 800 words and in the case of the closing statement no longer than 500 words. In the event of a debater posting more than the stated word limit then the excess words will be deleted by me from the bottom. Credits or references at the bottom do not count towards the word total.

Editing is Strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements only one image may be included in each post. No more than 5 references can be included at the bottom of each post. Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references.

Responses should be made within 24 hours, if people are late with their replies, they run the risk of forfeiting their reply and possibly the debate.

Judging will be done by an anonymous panel of 11 judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. Results will be posted by me as soon as a majority (6) is reached.

This debate is now open, good luck to both of you.




posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 09:03 PM
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I would like to begin by thanking Kano, Rain King, the judges, and all of the contestants for a very enjoyable tournament.

Whether or not aliens have visited earth has become an exceedingly impassioned debate. Therefore, in order to correctly deliberate this topic one must present a plausible base. The first and foremost question that needs to be answered is whether or not Alien life even exists. According to Wikipedia.org the number of stars in the universe is 7×10^22. Now if 1 in 10 of these stars had planetary systems, 1 in 10,000 of these planets is capable of harboring life and 1 in 1,000,000 of these planets had intelligent life evolve then the number of intelligent civilizations in the universe would be 7,000,000,000,000. So it seems the chances we are alone are rather slim.

In addition, there are countless photo’s, millions of UFO sightings, first-hand accounts of alien abductions, and amazing technological feats of primitive man that add up to enough circumstantial evidence to bring the concept of aliens on earth out of sci-fi and well into the realm of possibilities.

Every day you can find a news article reporting on a UFO sighting or other strange occurrence. On May 13, 2004 the Mexican air-force released a video showing 11 unidentified flying objects captured by jet pilots.[1] The dubious claim the experts have made on the matter is that the objects are not alien ships but that they are only unidentified. On August 19, 2004 an unidentified object hovered over Minneapolis, Minnesota for several hours at an altitude of 30,000 feet and again no plausible explanation has been put forth.[2] These two stories are but a taste of the smorgasbord of UFO sightings that occurs on a nearly daily basis.

Another piece of evidence for the existence of visiting ET’s is crop circles. While many crop circles have been explained away as hoaxes, thousands remain as mysterious creations of unexplainable origins. These circles have appeared in nearly every country on the face of the planet and often times are associated with concurrent UFO sightings and abductions. At the sites of several of the crop circles; crops no longer grow and radiation levels are above those occurring naturally in nature. Once more, even our best attempts to explain the phenomena away by our science come up short.

Mankind when presented with something he does not understand does his best to cope with the strange occurrence. Today we live in a world of science in which most mysterious happenings can be explained away and attributed to some known phenomena, yet for some reason science can not explain these UFO’s, alien artifacts, and abductions away. Primitive man here on earth did not have science to assist him in identifying strange or mysterious happenings so he explained it the best way he knew how, through what we refer to as folk tales, miracles, or myths. How many stories are out there of people being abducted by monsters, or visited by strange talking creatures? What of the tales of Incubus and Succubus, demons who have sex with sleeping people. The ancient Egyptians speak of “barges of the sun carried on the star studded back of Nut, the Heavenly Vault.” The ancient Greeks and Romans filed the sky with mystical gods, goddesses, mythological beasts, flora and fauna. Many ancient writings such as the Bible, the Koran, and the Mahabharata contain scores of enchanted tales that lead credence to visitors from outer space.

Even if you discount the ancient writings mentioned above and the thousands of clay tablets from Mesopotamia, amongst others, as too incredible to believe there is still the physical evidence. Who built the ancient megalithic structures and how? Why was the building of pyramids practiced broadly across the globe at the same time and then suddenly dropped? Who constructed and moved the Easter Island statues? Who created the drawings on the surface of the earth centuries ago that can only be viewed from the air?

The evidence in favor of the theory that aliens have visited the earth in the past and also continue to visit the earth is overwhelming. There are over a million websites dedicated to the study of UFO’s, extraterrestrials, and other phenomena associated with aliens. Currently there are over 1600 books in print exploring the proofs of alien life and their visits to earth. Most of the eye-witness sightings come from reputable sources such as astronauts, US presidents, judges, and police officers. In short, there are too many eye-witness accounts, videos, writings, and physical evidence to discount aliens as simply a figment of an overactive imagination.

Over to You Rain King, and Good Luck!



References
[1] www.ctv.ca...
[2] wcco.com...



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 01:49 PM
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Thanks to all involved, especially Kano, this is quite a task to organize.

Alien visitations have held great interest for many years, and discussion tends to become heated, mainly because there is no solid evidence to prove the existence of aliens, let alone their visitations to earth. My opponent’s arguments, like so many in favor of alien existence, are riddled with illogical leaps of faith, fact stretching, and the like, due to the lack of factual evidence.

First off, the mere citation of a large number and the induction of chance do not provide a credible base for an argument of extra-terrestrial life. Facts, not speculation, are required for a solid foundation of discussion.

In regard to the UFO’s seen by the Mexican air force, the Mexican government is not exactly the best informed or the most astute program on the earth. The admittedly unidentified objects could very likely have been foreign planes, secret spy craft tested by the US. Many aircraft have external lighting. The fact that the Mexican Air-force could not identify the object is more a testament to their incompetence.

The news networks are more than happy to report sightings of UFOs. They catch a lot of attention, which bolster ratings. The reporting of these occurrences in a news article, or some discussion forum on the net does not make them fact.

Crop circles, crop circles. If an extra terrestrial race, capable of interstellar star travel, existed, why would they resort to carving circular shapes into a very temporary medium such as the organic crops of earth? Don’t you suppose, with their vast amounts of technological understanding, that they could find a better way to communicate a message? Maybe provide a way for us to reply?

There have been thousands of people who have admitted to creating crop circles. To some it becomes a hobby, similar to the creation of a difficult corn maze. An interesting interview with a crop circle “artists can be read. [1] They are from several different countries, and state that, apparently, crop art is becoming quite popular.

We have a very minute understanding of the ancient races of earth. Their religions and customs are completely foreign to us. We cannot read into their religious and historical writings or descriptions and deduce alien visitations. For all we know, the said writings could have been literature from ancient Egypt. Once again, we are stretching facts to make incalculable jumps in logic. Also take into account that the ancients could have mistaken those of a different race for gods, like the Incas and Myans with Cortez.

Mankind built the megalithic structures. Records rarely last thousands of years, as many Egyptian records have. The megalithic structures reside in a much more humid, bacteria-prone environment, where paper or organic material would quickly decay. This could be why we have no records of the construction of the many structures in Wales, Ireland, France, Italy, or Scotland. [2]

I would like to hear more about the giant drawings on the earth only visible form space, with a credible source.

Another leap into oblivion. You cannot base an argument on the fact that there are millions of websites, or many books, or this and that published about ET’s. There are countless books on countless other subjects that people hold fascinations for that have no solid truth, such as the hollow earth theory, or reincarnation. All are theories, with no proof to take into account.

Until there is some solid proof, such as a crystal clear picture or video, (why are all the photos of UFOs out of focus, blurry, or speared?) there can be no solid argument for alien visitations. Speculation and non-descript references to alien sightings, abductions, and visitations do not establish a credible argument for ETs.


[1] //paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/138%5Fcirclemakers.shtml

[2] www.stonepages.com...



posted on Nov, 10 2004 @ 08:42 PM
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We Debate Theories, Not Facts

To begin I would like to illustrate the numbers I used are based on facts to the best of humankind’s knowledge and the induction of chance and mathematical computations is quite the norm when providing proof for a theory. The very existence of mankind is based on scientific chance and assumptions, themselves based on the best knowledge of mankind, outlined in the theory of evolution. There are literally thousands of theories, including relativity, quantum physics, and probability, which humans base our everyday lives on that themselves rely upon chance and assumptions; that’s why they’re called theories.

What we are debating are two converse theories, not facts. If solid facts existed to support either theory then there would be no need for a debate. In addition, if you insist on removing chance from the equation then the creation of life on this planet could not have possibly emerged from the astronomical chance proposed by scientific theory and you must subscribe to the idea that life emerged here by some magical means, be that God or some other creation. You can’t have it both ways, either you allow chance and assumptions or you admit that mystical and magical creations can exist.

The News

The Mexican Air-force allowed the world to investigate the tapes, yet no one could explain the unidentified objects. News organizations across the globe do not report UFO sightings to bolster ratings they do so because it is news. Also are you alleging a conspiracy by news organizations to bolster ratings by reporting false UFO sightings seen by, many times, hundreds of people?

Crop-Circles

Crop-circles are not there for humans to read, because as you said a technologically advanced civilization would use a more mathematical way to communicate. The likely use for crop-circles is for temporary landmarks for navigation or mapping.

Nearly 80% of crop-circles can be attributed to mankind, yet the other 20% cannot and these are chock-full of enigmas. Many crop-circles appear in areas inaccessible to hoaxers, such as military installations. The crops within genuine crop-circles undergo physical changes such as weaving of stalks, elongated nodes, cellular changes, increased crop yields, increased size, altered seeds, and blown nodes. Several times the ground under the circles will remain dry even after heavy rains. Also crop circles which appear in canola fields accomplish something man has yet to do, bend the plant without breaking it. Canola has the consistency of Celery so any attempt to bend it will snap the stalk. However in crop-circles the plant can be found bent at a 90 degree angle.

Even more interesting is the radioactive and electromagnetic effects of crop circles. Scientists report many times electronic equipment malfunctioning in crop circles and aircraft flying overhead report the same equipment failures especially compasses which spin out of control. Electromagnetic readings at the site of crop circles are often 10 times higher than levels occurring naturally in nature. Scientists report strange sounds emitting from the site at the 5Mhz range for several days following the formation. In 1991 nuclear physicists discovered radioactive isotopes at levels 4 times higher within crop-circles than on the outlining areas. In addition many times people report falling ill after entering a crop-circle site with effects such as headaches, nausea, vomiting, and vertigo.[1]

Lastly, Crop-Circles have been reported since 1647 so they cannot simply be written off as a passing fad.

Ancients

Indeed the ancients are shrouded in the fog of time yet, there is much we do know. We know that pyramids were constructed in multiple locations across the globe between 3500 and 2500 BC and suddenly dropped. What science has been unable to determine conclusively is how the ancients constructed these structures with the technology of the time. Also the statues on Easter Island have been proven too heavy to have been moved by man.

The why and how ancient megalithic structures created of stones some weighing over 2-million pounds have yet to be adequately explained. How do the megaliths scattered around the globe have the same complex polygonal stone construction with enormous weight stacked and sometimes fused together. The technology of the time did not permit these feats.

The ancients left behind giant drawings and inscriptions which possessed superior accuracy. The Peruvian Nazca-lines and roads are an array of lines and drawings which are so enormous can only be discerned from the air. The Bolivian-ceques are another example of radial lines emanating from ceremonial sites. Lastly are the amazing British Ley-lines which are the straight lines that connect ancient sites.[3]

upload.wikimedia.org..." target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>
Satellite imagery of Nazca lines

Lastly, the shear number of people who have described the same things when they were abducted by aliens from every corner of the globe has never received a credible explanation. Is everyone lying the same lie?


[1] paranormal.about.com...
[2] en.wikipedia.org...
[2] en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 12:14 AM
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The question of the ancients is excellent, but I fail to see the correlation between extraterrestrial visits and the construction of pyramids, unless you are making an obscure reference to “Stargate”.

As I stated earlier, a supposed alien race, capable of star travel, would not need to resort to such primitive methods as marking the earth for navigation. Our technology has eliminated the need for geographic marking. We have advanced navigation systems. If such an alien race existed, they would almost certainly have a more efficient method of navigation. I never said that crop art was a trend, or a passing fad. I stated that it has become quite popular. If you have any references to the early crop circles, I would like to see them, just for the sake of carrying on a credible argument.

I also never stated that we do not debate theories. To suggest that we debate without facts is ridiculous. This discussion should be based on facts supporting a theory. It is not my place to counter the idea that aliens exist. It is my duty, however, to prove that they have not visited our planet. My suggestion was that you should not base an argument, as you stated, on something as unstable as a probability. However, it is your choice.

Something we also must take into account is science. Scientists have estimated that intelligent life does NOT exist anywhere within 40,000 light years of our planet.


Scientists have been actively searching for extraterrestrial intelligence in our galaxy for the last forty years. The search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) has extended out to 40,000 light years from earth (in comparison, the galaxy is 100,000 light years across). To date, no signal from any extraterrestrial stellar system has ever been detected.
[1]

According to the laws of physics and Einstein’s theory of relativity, the mass of an object increases with its speed. Also, as an objects speed increases, its length decreases. This means that at the speed of light, any object other than light photons would be compressed nearly to non-existence. Travel at the speed of light simply is impossible. This means that any intelligent life would have to travel centuries, or even millennia to reach our humble planet.

You suggest they make this trip merely to scrawl a few lines and make some crop circles? It seems to me that if an alien race made such a journey, they would make their presence known. Unless you buy into the science fiction stories of parasitic aliens coming to suck earth dry of all its nutrients and resources. Earth: the last refuge for a dying alien race.

The Mexican air force released blurry photos of specks of light, and you expect someone to pinpoint exactly what the objects are?

The satellite imagery is beautiful, but I fail to see how it supports your argument. Lots of lines, granted, but I see none of the aforementioned drawings, or the ‘superiorly accurate’ inscriptions. Maybe a little explanation to clarify its relevance?

I would also like to see some source for the “shear number of people who have described the same things when they were abducted by aliens”. Lets here some of the stories, and see how well they match up.

There are a lot of theories here, a lot of speculation, but not many facts. All I see are some references to the ‘thousands of accounts, crop circles’ and the like.

Also, I would like to counter the credibility of Wikipedia. The information on that website is open-source. Anybody with any delusional theory can make edits to the information on any given topic.

The sheer distance between us and any neighboring life would make aliens detecting us impossible. We on earth have been transmitting radio signals into the galaxy for less than 100 years. It will be 2 million years before those signals reach our closest neighboring galaxy. The light (and other electromagnetic signals) that they would see represent the way the earth looked 2 million years ago. Beings in other galaxies would have no way of knowing that advanced life forms existed in our galaxy. [2]
[1] www.godandscience.org...

[2] www.fortunecity.com...



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 11:12 PM
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Unfinished Business

When we discuss aliens we are discussing something we know little about. We don’t have any clue how an alien civilization will carry itself. Just because humans don’t use geographic markings does not mean an advanced alien civilization would not. How do we know aliens aren’t using radioisotopes dropped in crop-circles as a sort of homing beacon? How do we know they are not introducing us and our food supply with various chemicals to see how we react? We simply don’t understand how an alien race will carry itself, yet what we do know is logic would dictate an alien race would study us before attempting contact thus to minimize shock and unwanted conflict. It is perfectly plausible that if humans found an alien civilization on Mars we would attempt to study it before we introduce ourselves to it.

The correlation between the ancients and aliens is quite simple. The physical evidence we have left behind from them leaves many questions about feats the ancients accomplished. How is it that humans from nearly all corners of the earth created the same megalithic structures with the same building techniques without being able to communicate; Alien visitation answers that question nicely. What of pyramid built throughout the world at the same time and then abruptly dropped? What of the Nazca lines, British Ley lines , or the Bolivian ceques which if you cared to read the links I provided you would see the lines are perfectly straight (a feat that has stumped scientists) and many drawings depicting humans, giants and animals are also included. In addition, the link I provided on Crop-circles noted the 1647 circle.

As for Traveling the distances of space and being limited to the speed of light allow me to illustrate several ways even humans have devised to circumvent the issue. By using relativity to a spacecraft’s advantage you can actually travel faster than light relative to the ships clocks allowing the traversing of the galaxy in only 12 years. The EPR paradox still holds much hope; the quantum field theory yields exciting possibilities, as do wormholes and tachyons. Needless to say even with our limited knowledge we know of possible ways to accomplish FTL travel, so who’s to say an advanced alien civilization hasn’t figured it out.[1]

Once more, the Mexican UFO footage, which nobody has been able to identify, was taken using advanced infrared-imaging . Radar from the aircraft indicated the objects were extremely far away and moving at tremendously high velocities. In summary, this case has even the most critical skeptics stumped.

As for Wikipedia.org, it is a free online encyclopedia which attempts to be unbiased and factual. If you feel the source is not credible then look in a hard copy encyclopedia for the information I referenced and you will find the same information. But I suppose we should give your sources (godandscience.org and fortunecity.com) more credibility?

More proof

The single most fascinating event concerning aliens visiting earth is Roswell 1947. An official release from the Army’s press Corps stated an alien spacecraft had been captured. Dozens of eyewitnesses stated they had seen the crash and alien bodies at the site. Strangely, shortly afterward the military retracted the statement and has been tripping over itself ever since. The military now claims the bodies recovered from Roswell in 1947 were actually:



1. ) a 1956 KC-97 aircraft accident in which 11 Air Force members lost their lives; and,
2. ) a 1959 manned balloon mishap in which two Air Force pilots were injured[2]


Any third grader would recognize this claim as impossible, how could bodies from 56 and 59 show up in 1947? The government to this day cannot adequately explain this event.



On November 21, 1999 NOAA satellites picked up a massive UFO 100 miles above Washington state. The possibility of the UFO being a computer generated blip was discussed and dismissed. Amazingly the UFO had structure with windows and radiated heat in the infrared spectrum.[3]

On June 30, 1908 in a remote area of Siberia, Tunguska, a massive explosion took place, flattening millions of trees and creating a blast heard halfway round the globe. Since then the best explanation science has offered has been a meteorite exploding in air but that all changed on August 12, 2004 when scientists declared they had located wreckage of an alien spacecraft in the area.[4]

A professor from the University of Temple outlines quite well why the stories of alien abductions are too similar to all be false. He states that there is no known psychological model that can satisfactorily explain the similarities between abductee’s confessions. He states that Hypnosis can implant false memories yet for everyone to be implanted with the same false memories is impossible.[5]



References
[1] math.ucr.edu...
[2] www.af.mil...
[3] www.abovetopsecret.com...
[4] www.ananova.com...
[5] pennlive.com.../base/news/1098004958313580.xml



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 01:54 AM
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an alien race would study us before attempting contact thus to minimize shock and unwanted conflict. It is perfectly plausible that if humans found an alien civilization on Mars we would attempt to study it before we introduce ourselves to it.


So which argument are you going to use? That aliens have visited the earth, and that they have made their presence known by assisting in the construction of the megaliths, nazca lines, etc. Or that aliens are studying us, covering their tracks so as to remain undetected. They contradict.

In regards to the article about interstellar travel and the capabilities of relativistic travels: These theories are VERY shaky, self admitted in the article, and most of them are based, not upon facts, but speculation. The reality is, upon reaching speeds near light, mass is converted to energy, or photons. This means that interstellar travel takes a VERY long time, because you CANNOT reach the speed of light and still have mass.

Also, the question of interstellar communication has not been addressed. As I said, scientists have good evidence that intelligent life is nowhere within 100,000 light years of earth. The light reaching that far or further displays our world as it was 100,000 years ago. A supposed alien race would not even be aware of our presence on the planet, let alone in time enough to make an interstellar cruise here. It simply is not possible.

Your entire argument is based upon the lack of information. You attribute the lack of information on megalithic structures to extra-terrestrial involvement, when, by the same token, I could introduce the theory that the unexplainable happenings are a result of the actions of an INTER-TERRESTRIAL race, INSIDE the planet. It has as much credibility as your argument. Neither case has any proof of the ORIGIN of supposed 'visitations'or 'abductions' We can't explain something, so let us pin it upon extra-terrestrials, shall we?

As long as we are basing arguments on odds, what are the odds that, considering all the claimed visitations, abductions, alien sightings, etc, not one shred of concrete evidence has ever appeared? Just blurry photographs, obscure news articles, and other such materials.



On June 30, 1908 in a remote area of Siberia, Tunguska, a massive explosion took place, flattening millions of trees and creating a blast heard halfway round the globe.


A number of factors can explain this occurance. Interesting that the "spacecraft" wreckage was not found until nearly a century later.



posted on Nov, 16 2004 @ 08:33 PM
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Clarification

Aliens that visited early man more than likely found man before it had evolved into what we are today. Man was likely still in the Neanderthal stage of development so intervention was about the same as human intervention upon a Martian ape species. The aliens probably experimented genetically with the primitive creatures and possibly could have created modern man, explaining the gaps in the fossil record. The aliens remained for a period of time while man developed but left after man developed to a certain stage. This would explain nicely the stories of angels, demons, gods and goddesses, whom mankind has now abandoned as too fanciful to believe. Now aliens are studying us watching our development; because it is one thing to visit non-intelligent life and another to visit an intelligent life that has well set cultures.

As far as the FTL theories being “Shaky”, consider this. In 230 BC Aristarchus speculated the universe was heliocentric, yet it was not until Copernicus in 1543 that he was proven correct. When Darwin proposed evolution in 1859 he speculated there was a mechanism allowing the descent and modification of genetic information, yet it was not until the early 1900’s a mechanism, the gene, was found by Mendel and named by Johannsen. Lastly, Einstein’s theory of relativity, which you base your argument, was highly speculative when it debuted in 1905. The theory met with extreme criticism, and to this day many areas are still speculative.

Allow me to discredit your 100,000 light year claim. The Drake Equation is used by scientists to determine how many intelligent civilizations can evolve in a certain area, assuming all life-forms are like humans. The variables used by godandscience.com are infinitesimal and nothing more than a guess just as any quantity used in the equation is a presumption. Only estimates are plugged into the equation not solid facts, and the equation does not touch on life-forms unlike humans. For example Carl Sagan stated the equation shows at least 1 million of the stars in the Milky Way have planets with advanced civilizations.[1]

For your blurry photograph argument I have provided two examples of UFO’s being detected with advanced equipment and one of scientific discovery of Alien wreckage.

Moving Forward

On December 27, 1980 in Bentwaters, England US Air-force patrols witnessed strange lights over their base. The following night they entered the forest armed with flashlights, radios, and Geiger counters. Around the time they encountered a 30 foot tall ship their equipment began to malfunction. The next day upon returning to the sight they found broken limbs, three circular depressions in the ground and radiation levels 25 times above normal. British radar also reported an object traveling at 9,000 MPH on the second night.[2]

On November 9, 1979 in Dechmont Law, England Ron Halliday reported seeing a large spacecraft. As he approached the craft two metallic balls dropped from the craft came to him and attached to his legs. The next thing Ron remembered was awaking 20 minutes later with a throbbing head, sore throat, and bitter taste in his mouth. He reported the incident to the authorities who discovered indentations in the ground where the craft was said to have been, marks along the path of the circular objects and ladder shaped marks in the ground.[3]

ON June 5, 1969 in St. Louis two commercial aircraft, one military aircraft and ground observers all witnessed a UFO. The pilots of flight 112 noticed 4 UFO’s heading straight for them an make evasive maneuvers at the last moment. Another flight trailing the first by eight miles observed the near collision and a National Guard Jet fighter reported the UFO’s almost hit him as well. The incident was also noticed by ground observers and radar picked up two unknown objects at the time of the incident.[4]

Lastly, I would like to provide you with some definitive proof alien life has visited earth. On July 20, 1999 two scientists provided the fossilized remains of extraterrestrial bacteria recovered from the Murchison and Efremovka meteorites. The scientists showed that there was not a single type of bacteria or only one of a kind; they showed there were communities fossilized within the rock. Interestingly the age of the bacteria is 4.5 billion years dating it before life arose on earth (3.8 Billion years ago) making the bacteria unquestionable hard evidence of alien visitation albeit micro deceased vistors.[5]

www.panspermia.org..." target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>
Efremovka meteorite: three-dimensional sheaths, uniting several trichomes, easily compared with the remains of the modern microorganisms of the Microcoleus morphotype


References
[1] www.abovetopsecret.com...
[2] www.pbs.org...
[3] edinburghnews.scotsman.com...
[4] www.pbs.org...
[5] www.panspermia.org...



posted on Nov, 17 2004 @ 11:02 PM
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Interesting theory, I will give you that much, but it has absolutely no evidence to reinforce it. Also, if you put a lot of stake in your bacterial argument posted above, you will realize that in contradicts your “aliens created modern man” theory. Posted below is a selection from your source


" extraterrestrial objects supports the idea of panspermia, i.e. the idea that life on the Earth was brought from the space. This idea is promoted by such authorities as V.I.Vernadsky, who wrote “...life did not originate on the Earth, it was brought to the Earth from space in a finished form;” and G.A. Zavarzin, who believes that data on the time of the appearance of the most ancient prokaryotes on the Earth conclusively prove the extraterrestrial orign of life."

It states, apart from the egregious spelling errors, that the microorganisms led them to believe that life was brought to earth. From Space. According to your theory:


Aliens that visited early man more than likely found man before it had evolved into what we are today. Man was likely still in the Neanderthal stage of development so intervention was about the same as human intervention upon a Martian ape species. The aliens probably experimented genetically with the primitive creatures and possibly could have created modern man, explaining the gaps in the fossil record

Now, how can you use as a source, something that contradicts your theories?

Allow ME, to discredit YOUR “ unquestionable hard evidence of alien visitation”.
It is incredible how easy it is to make something look official on the Internet. It really is. Slap a few names on it, some pictures, and people will believe anything. If this was truly a breakthrough, don't you think everyone would have heard of it by now?

Regardless,
The bacteria was taken from meteorites. Look up that word. Meteorite: A stony or metallic mass of matter that has fallen to the earth's surface from outer space. Answer me, how bacteria derived from a mass FALLEN FROM SPACE to earth can prove that aliens have visited the planet? You are, once again, making large leaps of logic, taking things out of context.

The theories you infer above, such as Einstein’s relativistic theory, Aristarchus's heliocentric theory, they were based upon fact. They theorized based on things they already knew. The FTL “theories” are based upon more speculative theories, such as wormhole space travel, etc. They cannot be proven. Einstein’s theory of relativity has been proven, a number of times. That is why it is taught in High Schools and Universities around the globe. Experiments have been performed, proving his theories to be accurate. [2]

Again, I ask you, what makes your extraterrestrial claims more credible than my inter-terrestrial claims? The lack of information makes it too difficult to pin it on anything. The only conclusion anyone can derive from these 'mysteries' is that they “defy rational explanation.” They were right there, because the only explanation you provide is irrational, with gaps in reason and evidence.

If you expect me to attempt to discredit every single account of an 'alien visitation', or 'abduction' or some such story, you will be disappointed. It is true, there are thousands of stories that have mysteries as the endings, but the lack of knowledge does not contribute any solid evidence to this argument. Cite all the crazy happenings you want, but don't expect them to be accepted as credible additions to your theory of extraterrestrial life.

[1] www.panspermia.org...
[2] www.launc.tased.edu.au...
[3] www.space.com...



posted on Nov, 18 2004 @ 08:56 PM
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Rebuttals

Quickly, If Panspermia is true then indeed aliens did visit earth because the organisms that founded life here on earth came from outer space, making it alien. Also, fossils of life older than any life on earth in a meteorite proves life from outer space visited earth.

If Einstein’s Relativity Theory was fact then why was it not proved correct until Eddington observed the 1919 eclipse?[1] If it was fact then why was another area of relativity not proved until last month?[2]

As for inter-terrestrials living inside a hollow earth; answer this. If the inside of the earth is hollow where does the magnetic field come from? What about volcanic activity? What about Plate tectonics? Where is the entrance?

Conclusion

As I have shown throughout this debate there are many proofs pointing to extraterrestrial visitation. Early man wrote about gods, demons, and angels and fanciful happenings that modern man discredits as myths and legends. Approaching the evidence with a rational mind today we see that these myths may just have been the best way early man could have explained aliens and spacecraft.

In addition the ancients are credited with the construction of many structures, such as the pyramids megaliths, and lines, which to this day we still don’t understand how they were made. An advanced civilization could have visited and created these structures while man was still developing.

We have strange crop-circles which have appeared in every country on the planet. Many of these crop circles have been proven by scientists to display strange cellular, physical, electromagnetic and radioactive properties. Many of the circles appear after UFO sightings and alien abductions, so the link to aliens is extremely plausible.

I have provided two examples of UFO’s being caught on high-tech equipment. One being captured by infrared camera’s and the other being captured by a satellite. I have also provided proof that scientists have recovered the remains of alien spacecraft.

I have illustrated the similarities in abduction stories from around the world do not fit into any psychological model making them all impossible to discredit. Literally millions of people say they have either seen alien ships or have been abducted by aliens. How can so many people claim to see the same things yet all be wrong?

Additionally, I have provided several incidents in which many people observed the same things. In Bentwaters military personnel observed a spacecraft and its aftereffects. In Dechmont Law local authorities back up an abduction case with physical evidence. In St. Louis three aircrafts, radar and hundreds of observers note the same UFO. Lastly, in Roswell after 57 years the military can’t quite explain their cover-up of an alien Saucer recovery.

I have even shown micro-aliens have visited earth either as their final resting place or new home. In the end the evidence stacks heavily in favor of Alien visitation no matter which way you slice it.

In a nutshell, Aliens have visted and are continuing to visit.


References
[1] www.simonsingh.net...
[2] www.abc.net.au...



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 03:51 PM
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CLOSING STATEMENT

I never said that Einstein’s theory was fact right from the get-go. I said that his theory was BASED on fact, and that your cited theories are not.

As for inter-terrestrials, as you stated, we know absolutely nothing about alien species. For all we know, inter-terrestrial aliens living underneath the crust (note I never stated that the earth was hollow, you just keep putting words in my mouth) could have any number of physical properties that allow them to live under the crust undetected. They could live in deep trenches in the ocean. The entrance could be in a number of places. Who are you to counter this argument after all the outlandish assumptions you have made about extra-terrestrials.

True, there have been many unexplained events through the course of earth’s history. However, it is an intensely illogical leap to assume that the plausible explanation is extra-terrestrial visits. Simple lacking of fact cannot be used as evidence to argue that case.

I have already disproved your meteoritic bacteria theory. Nothing more needs to be said there.

My opponent’s arguments have come down to one thing: Speculation. Highly subjective speculation at that. The ‘evidence’ he has cited proves nothing, but merely admits the lack of information. He has contradicted his own sources and theories. He has made irrational judgments as basis for his arguments.

Science, unlike law, operates under the principle of false until proven true. That is the scientific method. Every experiment is performed over and over to ensure the results are not a fluke. My opponent’s arguments haven’t even turned out any solid evidence, let alone concluded that aliens have even probably visited earth. He has repeated and rehearsed many stories, but all of them end in the same ambiguous way, lacking evidence and facts.

I have done my best to explain that our lack of knowledge does not point to any specific entity. It just solidifies the idea that we know very little about the past.

In conclusion, I believe I have made a strong case that the earth has not been visited by an alien race, rather, is shrouded in very inconclusive mystery.

Thanks agian to all involved. This has been an enlightening debate.



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 09:53 PM
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Brilliant, I love it when a Debate comes together.

I'll set the elaborate system of water-wheels, pulleys and weights we call the judging panel into action. Results in a few days.



posted on Nov, 27 2004 @ 07:46 AM
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Votes are in, and the winner of this debate is BlackJackal by a margin of 7-3. Congratulations to BlackJackal who retains the championship pennant and remains the reigning ATS Debate Champion. A big thankyou to Rain King for such a strong performance throughout the tournament.

An excellent way to finish off a great tournament, with a brilliant debate. You are both to be commended for taking part.

Judges Comments:

Ultimately, my task is to vote for the one who made the most convincing argument, and there was no question about this one. BlackJackal wins.
BJ made his argument using a clear and respectful point of view, eschewing flippant remarks and witty comebacks. BJ did his research for this debate and it showed. Whereas I had my doubts as to the possibility of earth having been visited, I now am unsure what I think.
In regard to Rain King’s argument, I was somewhat put off by his sometimes dismissive and slightly overconfident manner and lack of an original argument. JB1 he is not. In my opinion, he made some good points and responded well to some issues, but he also missed on several points; for instance: implying incompetence in the Mexican Air Force sighting, which was a presumptuous and reckless statement.
Congrats to BlackJackal.


This subject of this debate was vailiantly defended by both debators,and I Wish to thank both debators for the enlightening, informative, and entertaining stance each of you took.BlackJackal, your opening was very strong, and led me to imagine the possibilty of alien visitation.Rain King opened up the realist side of the debate with a point of view that many are inclined to lean toward, because of the lack of hard, positive, undeniable evidence of alien visitation.This debate was interesting! A Split Decision....visionary views and realistic sides of the argument.The title of this debate reflects probable circumstances "Aliens probably have visited Earth." I am inclined to agree.


Well, great debate despite the fact that both debators seemed caught up in what a debate was actually debating; theories or facts basing theories. That was off topic, and got a bit old. Otherwise, it was the usual ATS Final Debate - Top Notch Work. I'm going to have to cast my vote towards BlackJackal. As he said in his debate, and proved very well in my opinion, "In the end the evidence stacks heavily in favor of Alien visitation no matter which way you slice it."


Since the subject of this debate was" Aliens probably have visited Earth" and not "Aliens absolutely visited earth" then it was not required to have "proof" of such a visit.

In this debate BlackJackal offered much more circumstantial evidence supporting visitation than Rain King did refuting visitation by aliens.

Since theory backed by circumstantial evidence is enough to back a "probability" I have to declare BlackJackel the winner of this debate.

A hearty good job to everyone who has participated in this tournament - they just get better and better.


"Most excellent" debate by both debate finalists. A hearty congratulation to both. Both presented well-structured and well-written, as well as, well-backed arguments. Again, I commend both for their presentations and in their ways and styles of presenting and arguing their determined positions. Symantics aside, for this debate could easily have gone either way, I placed my vote for Rain King in that he presented and countered more persuasively. Again, this outcome could have easily gone the other way. Both debators demonstrated outstanding intellectual diversity and should be proud of their accomplishments within these debates. They represented some of the very best that ATS has to offer. Be proud, and may 'we' be fortunate enough to see both continue to participate in future debates and within ATS. Great job guys and gals!


This was probably the best debate in the tournament. I don't think I have to comment on the rhetorical skill of the participants again. I've done that in earlier debate and I think it'll suffice to say that they know how to structure an argument, how to search for information and how to interpret information to fit their position.

Sometimes they go a bit too far, though. BlackJackal says at one point at the military claims the bodies recovered from the Roswell crash site are either from "1. ) a 1956 KC-97 aircraft accident in which 11 Air Force members lost their lives; or, 2. ) a 1959 manned balloon mishap in which two Air Force pilots were injured." But the source says that no bodies were recovered and that the incidents above were just the sources for the rumours. If you misread the source or mispresented it, I don't know.

Rain King had to argue for the stronger side of the debate. He was right in saying: "My opponent’s arguments have come down to one thing: Speculation. Highly subjective speculation at that. The ‘evidence’ he has cited proves nothing, but merely admits the lack of information." Arguments from ignorance are useless when you try to prove a theory. I really liked Rain King's touch of introducing the intraterrestrial beings. It was impossible to choose whether the strange incidents could be explained better with these beings or extraterrestrial.

Because of all these reasons, Rain King gets my vote in this debate.


A very spirited debate on a very cloudy subject. Both participants argued their points well. Rain King, being in the role of rebutal, put forth well for his side but BlackJackal was more proactive for his side. The winner, BlackJackal.


A very good and solid match. RainKing came very close to defeating BlackJackal but he sagged in some areas. Very good match and one helluva tournament. You all performed exceptionally well.


Okay, this was another difficult decision, but I think I"m comfortable choosing a winner.

BlackJackal.

He had his strongest debate of the latest tournament, and I think he's worthy of his pennant yet again this time. Cheers to him.

Well done to all who entered this tournament. Congratulations again to BlackJackal!



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