Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

reply to post by windword


Jesus did not expand upon reincarnation, but he definitely suggested it. When the disciples asked whether a blind man had been born that way because of the sins of his parents or himself, they are asking whether the blind man himself sinned before his own birth. Jesus didn't take that opportunity to say "What? How could he do that? How could he sin before he was even born?" -- the implication being that the disciples were referring to another life before the blind man's current life. Jesus simply answered that it was not the man who sinned, or his parents. He could have cleared up the whole reincarnation controversy but didn't -- why wouldn't he have? Because reincarnation was an accepted theological idea.

Also, when Jesus first saw John the Baptist he called him Elijah, the prophet who, of course, lived many, many years before John: "And if you are willing to understand what I mean, he is Elijah, the one the prophets said would come. And if ever you were willing to listen, listen now!" -- Matthew 11:14-15, The Living New Testament

Reincarnation was an accepted theological idea/theory of the day, and thus it is in our days as well -- and appropriately so.

Originally posted by colbe


What about "false memory?" A dear friend, her brother accused his father of things not true. And not
until years later did the brother understand it was all "false memory." The family went through hell.

The "past lives" business sounds the same. Just wondering since I never experienced memory of a past life.

My older sister remembered my father doing things to her, and confronted him about when she was in her 40's. My father was a heavy drinker at the time and my mother was always in denial. My sister's revelation took my family through hell and she recanted. But we knew it was true, he did it to me too, along with my uncle and my babysitter's husband.

Sometimes people recant the truth, because the truth can just be too painful for some people to bear.

As too past life memories, I've had many. They are as real as any other memories that I have, sometimes even more so. My memories are always revealed according to something that is pertinent in my present situation, and always extremely enlightening and helpful.

reply to post by Brigidshine


Exactly! His (Jesus) refusal to correct the apostles regarding the blind man's fate is more telling than not! There are lot of things that point to reincarnation in the New Testament. John the Baptist being among them. Baptism itself is a physical representation of being born again through water, and John was born Elijah, born again.

PS: Welcome to ATS Newbie!

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by colbe


What about "false memory?" A dear friend, her brother accused his father of things not true. And not
until years later did the brother understand it was all "false memory." The family went through hell.

The "past lives" business sounds the same. Just wondering since I never experienced memory of a past life.

My older sister remembered my father doing things to her, and confronted him about when she was in her 40's. My father was a heavy drinker at the time and my mother was always in denial. My sister's revelation took my family through hell and she recanted. But we knew it was true, he did it to me too, along with my uncle and my babysitter's husband.

Sometimes people recant the truth, because the truth can just be too painful for some people to bear.

As too past life memories, I've had many. They are as real as any other memories that I have, sometimes even more so. My memories are always revealed according to something that is pertinent in my present situation, and always extremely enlightening and helpful.

I am so sorry if it is true about your sister's memory. What if hers was "false memory?" Pray for the soul of
your father. My Dad drank a lot too. Job pressures, he was a social drinker not abusive. Still painful though...

Share one your past life memories. Are they repeating dreams for each particular life? Sounds wild, I wonder
which life is judged for eternity? And how about free will choices, they mean nothing, you have to keep returning
until when, who decides you got it right?


God bless you ww,

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Brigidshine

 

PS: Welcome to ATS Newbie!

edit on 9-7-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Thank you kindly.

reply to post by colbe

I am so sorry if it is true about your sister's memory. What if hers was "false memory?" Pray for the soul of your father. My Dad drank a lot too. Job pressures, he was a social drinker not abusive. Still painful though... Share one your past life memories. Are they repeating dreams for each particular life? Sounds wild, I wonder which life is judged for eternity? And how about free will choices, they mean nothing, you have to keep returning until when, who decides you got it right?

See what you did there? You invalidated mine and my sisters recollections by suggesting that these memories might be false. Why? Because they're not good memories and of something of a lurid nature? If you're so quick to reject someone's painful memories of their childhood, why would I expect you to accept testimonies of past life memories?

I won't share my precious memories with you for that reason, but I will tell you that my most all of my memories were recalled while I was wide awake.

Originally posted by windword
My older sister remembered my father doing things to her, and confronted him about when she was in her 40's. My father was a heavy drinker at the time and my mother was always in denial. My sister's revelation took my family through hell and she recanted. But we knew it was true, he did it to me too, along with my uncle and my babysitter's husband.

Sometimes people recant the truth, because the truth can just be too painful for some people to bear.

As too past life memories, I've had many. They are as real as any other memories that I have, sometimes even more so. My memories are always revealed according to something that is pertinent in my present situation, and always extremely enlightening and helpful.

So how do you bring these experiences in line with your reincarnation effort to learn.

Are you of the opinion that you chose this life before you entered? If so then you and your sister essentially asked for this to happen. Or is it more along the lines that it will all work towards the greater good?

This would be an area where reincarnation is an excuse for anything and you can blame the victim because they chose to have all this happen to them before they incarnated.

I find it hard for people to realize how much they dissociate the horrible things that happen and at the same time claim that they chose this life while in 'spirit.'

Originally posted by Akragon
Christians can't accept reincarnation because the idea destroys the foundation of their belief system....

IF reincarnation exists... Theres no need for Hell... Which is the backbone of their religion... Fear of Hell...

Which means no more control... no more fear based conversions.... its all over if reincarnation is accepted

Born again means exactly what it says.... rebirth...

And it is by no means a goal... though perhaps a little better then a lake of fire...

At least its logical... while the idea of hell has no basis in logic

edit on 27-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Do you remember being born before this life? If not, you think this is your first stint on Earth? How many people out there remember life prior to their life now? Exactly.....There is no such thing as reincarnation.....

This means your spirit is reborn after you die.....Your spirit reborn, not physical body.....Once this is done you will approach Jesus Christ if you accepted him as your lord and saviour within your Earthly body.....If not, good luck not believing in Hell......You shall see soon enough

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli

Originally posted by windword
My older sister remembered my father doing things to her, and confronted him about when she was in her 40's. My father was a heavy drinker at the time and my mother was always in denial. My sister's revelation took my family through hell and she recanted. But we knew it was true, he did it to me too, along with my uncle and my babysitter's husband.

Sometimes people recant the truth, because the truth can just be too painful for some people to bear.

As too past life memories, I've had many. They are as real as any other memories that I have, sometimes even more so. My memories are always revealed according to something that is pertinent in my present situation, and always extremely enlightening and helpful.

So how do you bring these experiences in line with your reincarnation effort to learn.

Are you of the opinion that you chose this life before you entered? If so then you and your sister essentially asked for this to happen. Or is it more along the lines that it will all work towards the greater good?

This would be an area where reincarnation is an excuse for anything and you can blame the victim because they chose to have all this happen to them before they incarnated.

I find it hard for people to realize how much they dissociate the horrible things that happen and at the same time claim that they chose this life while in 'spirit.'

My answer to Colbe was off topic and in answer to this comment:

Originally posted by colbe What about "false memory?" A dear friend, her brother accused his father of things not true. And not until years later did the brother understand it was all "false memory." The family went through hell. The "past lives" business sounds the same. Just wondering since I never experienced memory of a past life.

My comment was in regard to how people will sometimes recant in order to avoid the pain that the truth can bring.

As far as your other question, I'm not a proponent of karma, as such. Nothing justifies the crimes of one against another. Whether we choose the hardship that life brings us proactively in a pre-incarnation spiritual realm or if God decides the hardships that life brings us, the outcome is the same. What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger.

reply to post by Chrisfishenstein

Do you remember being born before this life? If not, you think this is your first stint on Earth? How many people out there remember life prior to their life now? Exactly.....

Lots of people, including myself, remember past lives.

There is no such thing as reincarnation.....

This is only your opinion.

This means your spirit is reborn after you die.....Your spirit reborn, not physical body.....

I don't believe that the spirit is born. Who are the spirits parents if the spirit is born? So you believe that a brand new spirit is created during the process of sexual reproduction? If so, how is the spirit separate from the physical body? Why does the spirit live past the body?

Once this is done you will approach Jesus Christ if you accepted him as your lord and saviour within your Earthly body.....If not, good luck not believing in Hell......You shall see soon enough

So your spirit is eternal whether or not you accept Jesus, but is only reborn by him? If you don't accept Jesus, your eternal (unborn again) spirit goes to hell? Good luck with that. That doesn't sound much like a loving father to me. Makes no sense at all! You can keep your God if that's what you think.

Originally posted by Chrisfishenstein

Originally posted by Akragon
Christians can't accept reincarnation because the idea destroys the foundation of their belief system....

IF reincarnation exists... Theres no need for Hell... Which is the backbone of their religion... Fear of Hell...

Which means no more control... no more fear based conversions.... its all over if reincarnation is accepted

Born again means exactly what it says.... rebirth...

And it is by no means a goal... though perhaps a little better then a lake of fire...

At least its logical... while the idea of hell has no basis in logic

edit on 27-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Do you remember being born before this life? If not, you think this is your first stint on Earth? How many people out there remember life prior to their life now? Exactly.....There is no such thing as reincarnation.....

This means your spirit is reborn after you die.....Your spirit reborn, not physical body.....Once this is done you will approach Jesus Christ if you accepted him as your lord and saviour within your Earthly body.....If not, good luck not believing in Hell......You shall see soon enough

Maybe you should look around the forum a little bit my friend...

Theres plenty of people on this forum alone that remember their past lives.... Let alone the rest of the world...

Our species is nothing more then a blink in the history of time... So if you believe your little blink is the only time you've done this... Feel free to believe whatever you like.

Hell can not coexist with a loving creator... You should get your head out of the OT and try reading about your saviour....

IF that is who you claim he is

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by colbe

 

I am so sorry if it is true about your sister's memory. What if hers was "false memory?" Pray for the soul of your father. My Dad drank a lot too. Job pressures, he was a social drinker not abusive. Still painful though... Share one your past life memories. Are they repeating dreams for each particular life? Sounds wild, I wonder which life is judged for eternity? And how about free will choices, they mean nothing, you have to keep returning until when, who decides you got it right?

See what you did there? You invalidated mine and my sisters recollections by suggesting that these memories might be false. Why? Because they're not good memories and of something of a lurid nature? If you're so quick to reject someone's painful memories of their childhood, why would I expect you to accept testimonies of past life memories?

I won't share my precious memories with you for that reason, but I will tell you that my most all of my memories were recalled while I was wide awake.

No I didn't. Experts, you aren't and neither am I, have shown "false memory" to be that, a lie. And FM has destroyed a lot of families.

You replied, I didn't force you windword. You don't want to share your "memories", why did you start the thread?


God bless you,

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli

Originally posted by windword
My older sister remembered my father doing things to her, and confronted him about when she was in her 40's. My father was a heavy drinker at the time and my mother was always in denial. My sister's revelation took my family through hell and she recanted. But we knew it was true, he did it to me too, along with my uncle and my babysitter's husband.

Sometimes people recant the truth, because the truth can just be too painful for some people to bear.

As too past life memories, I've had many. They are as real as any other memories that I have, sometimes even more so. My memories are always revealed according to something that is pertinent in my present situation, and always extremely enlightening and helpful.

So how do you bring these experiences in line with your reincarnation effort to learn.

Are you of the opinion that you chose this life before you entered? If so then you and your sister essentially asked for this to happen. Or is it more along the lines that it will all work towards the greater good?

This would be an area where reincarnation is an excuse for anything and you can blame the victim because they chose to have all this happen to them before they incarnated.

I find it hard for people to realize how much they dissociate the horrible things that happen and at the same time claim that they chose this life while in 'spirit.'

My answer to Colbe was off topic and in answer to this comment:

Originally posted by colbe What about "false memory?" A dear friend, her brother accused his father of things not true. And not until years later did the brother understand it was all "false memory." The family went through hell. The "past lives" business sounds the same. Just wondering since I never experienced memory of a past life.

My comment was in regard to how people will sometimes recant in order to avoid the pain that the truth can bring.

As far as your other question, I'm not a proponent of karma, as such. Nothing justifies the crimes of one against another. Whether we choose the hardship that life brings us proactively in a pre-incarnation spiritual realm or if God decides the hardships that life brings us, the outcome is the same. What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger.

edit on 9-7-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Reincarnation, "pre-incarnation"...huuunnnh? Tee-hee.

Stop preaching the lie, what a bunch of nonsense. The outcome is not the same. Which life goes to Heaven? Which life is judged at our Particular Judgment and the same for the Final Judgment?

Which life goes to Hell?

reply to post by colbe

Reincarnation, "pre-incarnation"...huuunnnh? Tee-hee.

Did you read the OP? Your own church father, Origen taught pre-existence and reincarnation. The Bible teaches pre-existence and reincarnation. Many philosophers, the likes of Pythagoras taught reincarnation. Just because you can't wrap your head around the esoteric meaning and purpose doesn't make it any less valid or true.

Stop preaching the lie, what a bunch of nonsense.

NO! You're not the boss of me. besides, look who talking!!!

I hate to agree with Akragon,

But I have memories from 3 past lives.

Edit: Also you have no idea what you are talking about with 'Jesus Christ'. You are the one who is in for a surprise when you die.

All those who believe they can just put their hand up and go 'I BELIEVE IN JESUS, I'm flawed I can't help it', and think that is good enough are in for a very rude shock. There is no 'heaven' for these people. It's written in the Bible if you care to translate it correctly.

Those that have done nothing to 'know' God in life, or be of the same heart as 'God', shall get back on the merry-go-round that you call 'Purgatory', for another incarnation in a thousand years or so, to see if they get it right this time.

Nobody who claims to know God through 'Jesus' really knows God. You want to know God. Stop messing about with the deity that holds you back from them and go straight to the source themselves. God.

They are inside each and every one of us.

How can you ever claim to know God, if you don't even understand the life you live now. How can you understand God?

How can you claim to understand hell, when you don't understand life?

How can you claim to understand heaven, when you don't understand life?

Don't understand the 'We are' or existence. Or even the 'I am' of your consciousness.

You think a primary school would let a child graduate to High School if they just sat there and went 'Oh well, I'm dumb. But Jesus will take me to high school with him'.

IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY! Until you work out life, you will never know 'heaven'.

You need to know WHAT IT IS first, before you can get there. You need to know WHERE YOU ARE GOING!

Hence reincarnation. Lets see if your soul gets it right NEXT time. Not many Chrisitians are ever going to get it right until they investigate the Gnostic teachings, which the Vatican intentionally suppresses because it teaches that you DO NO NEED THEM or TO GIVE THEM MONEY in order to find God. Inside you. This is the truth. I can tell you this 100%

Originally posted by Chrisfishenstein

Originally posted by Akragon
Christians can't accept reincarnation because the idea destroys the foundation of their belief system....

IF reincarnation exists... Theres no need for Hell... Which is the backbone of their religion... Fear of Hell...

Which means no more control... no more fear based conversions.... its all over if reincarnation is accepted

Born again means exactly what it says.... rebirth...

And it is by no means a goal... though perhaps a little better then a lake of fire...

At least its logical... while the idea of hell has no basis in logic

edit on 27-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Do you remember being born before this life? If not, you think this is your first stint on Earth? How many people out there remember life prior to their life now? Exactly.....There is no such thing as reincarnation.....

This means your spirit is reborn after you die.....Your spirit reborn, not physical body.....Once this is done you will approach Jesus Christ if you accepted him as your lord and saviour within your Earthly body.....If not, good luck not believing in Hell......You shall see soon enough

Hi windword,

It is difficult to change people's belief. I can share, you won't believe me now but Jesus wants you to become Roman Catholic. The Remnant is Roman Catholic. I shall keep you in my prayers.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Our Lord did NOT reincarnate, He arose from the dead in the same body only glorified. Remember the five marks. There are others in the Gospel. The Fathers, the saints of the Old Testament and a few in the New awaited Jesus' opening Heaven to them in a particular place. In that place was Abraham, he didn't reincarnate. More example, all that time, Moses nor Elijah reincarnated. They appeared with Our Lord at the Transfiguration. Peter, James and John saw them.

Luke: 16: 22-25
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham' s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. [23] And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: [24] And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. [25] And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

[22] Abraham's bosom: The place of rest, where the souls of the saints resided, till Christ had opened heaven by his death.


www.drbo.org...

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by colbe

 

Reincarnation, "pre-incarnation"...huuunnnh? Tee-hee.

Did you read the OP? Your own church father, Origen taught pre-existence and reincarnation. The Bible teaches pre-existence and reincarnation. Many philosophers, the likes of Pythagoras taught reincarnation. Just because you can't wrap your head around the esoteric meaning and purpose doesn't make it any less valid or true.

Stop preaching the lie, what a bunch of nonsense.

NO! You're not the boss of me. besides, look who talking!!!

edit on 9-7-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

I think Adjensen set the record straight already, don't repeat the same claim, it is not true.

New Agers reject the faith and try and pick out someone of the faith who agrees with them. Inconsistent, never works. An excerpt, read further, you will see a quote from Irenaeus (189 A.D), his writing, Against Heresies.


+ + +

Reincarnation

Members of what is commonly called the "New Age" movement often claim that early Christians believed in reincarnation. Shirley MacLaine, an avid New Age disciple, recalls being taught: "The theory of reincarnation is recorded in the Bible. But the proper interpretations were struck from it during an ecumenical council meeting of the Catholic Church in Constantinople sometime around A.D. 553, called the Council of Nicaea [sic]" (Out on a Limb, 234–35).

Historical facts provide no basis for this claim. In fact, there was no Council of Nicaea in A.D. 553. Further, the two ecumenical councils of Nicaea (A.D. 325 and A.D. 787) took place in the city of Nicaea (hence their names)—and neither dealt with reincarnation. What did take place in A.D. 553 was the Second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople. But records from this Council show that it, too, did not address the subject of reincarnation. None of the early councils did.

The closest the Second Council of Constantinople came to addressing reincarnation was, in one sentence, to condemn Origen, an early Church writer who believed souls exist in heaven before coming to earth to be born. New Agers confuse this belief in the preexistence of the soul with reincarnation and claim that Origen was a reincarnationist. Actually, he was one of the most prolific early writers against reincarnation! Because he is so continually misrepresented by New Agers, we have included a number of his quotes below, along with passages from other sources, all of which date from before A.D. 553, when the doctrine of reincarnation was supposedly "taken out of the Bible."

The origin of Shirley MacLaine’s mistaken notion that Origen taught reincarnation is probably Reincarnation in Christianity, by Geddes MacGregor—a book published by the Theosophical Publishing House in 1978. The author speculates that Origen’s texts written in support of the belief in reincarnation somehow disappeared or were suppressed. Admitting he has no evidence, MacGregor nonetheless asserts: "I am convinced he taught reincarnation in some form" (58). You may judge from the passages below whether this seems likely.


www.catholic.com...



Irenaeus

"We may undermine [the Hellenists’] doctrine as to transmigration from body to body by this fact—they remember nothing whatever of the events which took place in their previous states of existence. For if they were sent forth with this object, that they should have experience of every kind of action, they must of necessity retain a remembrance of those things which have been previously accomplished, that they might fill up those in which they were still deficient, and not by always hovering, without intermission, through the same pursuits, spend their labor wretchedly in vain. . . . With reference to these objections, Plato . . . attempted no kind of proof, but simply replied dogmatically that when souls enter into this life they are caused to drink of oblivion by that demon who watches their entrance, before they effect an entrance into the bodies. It escaped him that he fell into another, greater perplexity. For if the cup of oblivion, after it has been drunk, can obliterate the memory of all the deeds that have been done, how, O Plato, do you obtain the knowledge of this fact . . . ?" (Against Heresies 2:33:1–2 [A.D. 189]). ...

reply to post by colbe


Nope. Adjensen lost that debate. Origen taught reincarnation!

If it can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body and that it is worse off in the body than out of it; then beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrariwise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things, their bodies are once more annihilated. They are thus ever vanishing and ever reappearing. Origen
www.newadvent.org...

reply to post by colbe

nor Elijah reincarnated.

Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist. Jesus said so.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by colbe

 

Nope. Adjensen lost that debate. Origen taught reincarnation!

If it can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body and that it is worse off in the body than out of it; then beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrariwise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things, their bodies are once more annihilated. They are thus ever vanishing and ever reappearing. Origen
www.newadvent.org...

edit on 10-7-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)

Your argument only works if you take Origen's teachings as the absolute truth. He began his life in Alexandria receiving a classical Hellenistic (see Mystery Schools) education and was encouraged to study Christian scriptures.

He lived around 184/5 ce which means he was hundreds of years removed from the days in which the faith was founded. The same arguments of the RCC corrupting teachings can be used against Origen as he did not have a uniform set of scriptures (aka Bible) from which to base his theories.

What your argument amounts to is the nothing less then me claiming that because Blavatsky taught Lucifer was the good god of liberation as well as reincarnation that she was in possession of the absolute truth of your faith.

It is a flawed argument at its very core.

I also find it funny that you base your entire Biblical theory on one individual whom you think was reincarnated and apply it to everyone including all the souls which were said to be in the grave.

You completely avoid attempts to view the Bible in its entirety because your theory is not supported when viewed in this manner.

This failure leads you to a belief that the Bible is corrupted and manipulated because . . . it does not support your theory . . .