Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Okay, let's try reading what it says:

Oh come on Adjensen... Don't you think I've read it literally hundreds of times?

Flesh gives birth to flesh, and spirit gives birth to spirit.... but We are all born of flesh and spirit

The difference between the two... is that those that are oriented towards the flesh accept the ways of the flesh... and those who recognise the spirit accept the ways of the spirit...

I don't disagree with you, but nothing you wrote has anything to do with reincarnation.

I underlined the important bit -- there are two types of birth, and being born again means being born spiritually. There's nothing in there that says anyone is, or needs to be, born in the flesh multiple times.

So I suppose the quote from job is incorrect as well?

What, the bit about "naked came I"? He's saying that you've got nothing when you're born, and you've got nothing when you die. What does that have to do with reincarnation?

Um... spoiler alert. Nicodemus became a disciple of Jesus and, with Joseph of Arimathea, buried Christ after the crucifixion. If that's not changing your ways, I don't know what is -- and I'm guessing he wasn't physically reborn in the interim.

Well that's your guess... My guess is that he was reincarnated...

Let's be generous and assume that his conversation with Christ was at the beginning of Christ's ministry. Are you saying that, in the course of three years, Nicodemus died, was reincarnated, grew up and was able to bury Christ after the resurrection?

M'kay.

reply to post by Akragon


I think the idea of reincarnating into a less than desirable situation, sounds like hell to me!?

I would hope someone who destroyed as many lives as, say, Hitler, would be forced to reincarnate, again and again, into a war torn, disease and famine ridden area and be made to suffer exactly what he inflicted onto others. One lifetime for every person who was affected.

reply to post by adjensen

I don't disagree with you, but nothing you wrote has anything to do with reincarnation.

How can one be born of the spirit if said person already has that spirit?

What, the bit about "naked came I"? He's saying that you've got nothing when you're born, and you've got nothing when you die. What does that have to do with reincarnation?

No hes not... Lets see it again...

And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I Return thither:

Let's be generous and assume that his conversation with Christ was at the beginning of Christ's ministry.

I don't see any reason to assume such things...

Are you saying that, in the course of three years, Nicodemus died, was reincarnated, grew up and was able to bury Christ after the resurrection?

No... Im saying he lived his life.... Died... And God said.... back ya go... have fun!

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Akragon

 

I think the idea of reincarnating in to a less than desirable situation, sounds like hell to me!?

I would hope someone who destroyed as many lives as, say, Hitler, would be forced to reincarnate, again and again, into a war torn, disease and famine ridden area and be made to suffer exactly what he inflicted onto others. One lifetime for every person who was affected.

This is one of the issues I see when discussing this subject...

Many think of it as a positive thing.... Its not... It basically means you failed... or at least haven't learned what was needed within the time you were given...

I would hate to be reborn again... I want to do it right this time around.... because I hate what this world is becoming... and has been for eons...

reply to post by adjensen

Job 14:7
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.

Psalms 103:26
They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed

Born again people get "new" clothes, ie bodies. The Bible refers to the body as a garment for the soul one many occasions.

Mark 2:21
No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.
22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind (spirit) goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind (spirit) returneth again according to his circuits.

7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

The wind, also translates in Hebrew to the word "spirit" or soul.
That scripture, cited above, is the scripture to which Jesus was referring when he said this:

John 3
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus most definitely taught about reincarnation. Him saying you must be born again literally means born again, through reincarnation. The church is the one who has indoctrinated billions into believing the twisted version of his words, that it means something that happens in this life and not the next.

The rich man and Lazarus is a great example of a teaching on reincarnation. It is about karma and how what you give in this life is exactly what you will get in the next.

Christians will deny it until the day they die though, because they have been conditioned to believe the wrong interpretation.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I taught you well grasshoppa...

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Jesus most definitely taught about reincarnation. Him saying you must be born again literally means born again, through reincarnation. The church is the one who has indoctrinated billions into believing the twisted version of his words, that it means something that happens in this life and not the next.

The rich man and Lazarus is a great example of a teaching on reincarnation. It is about karma and how what you give in this life is exactly what you will get in the next.

Christians will deny it until the day they die though, because they have been conditioned to believe the wrong interpretation.

If Lazarus is proof of reincarnation then those who believe in reincarnation are in big trouble. Lazarus only came back to life because God rose him from the dead. Moreover, he came back as Lazarus, not someone else. So if that is your proof, then it proves that the only way one can be reincarnated is if God raises them from the dead. I don't see to much of that happening anywhere right now.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


That would be a resurrection though... Not reincarnation...

Same idea really... Though one is the natural cycle... and the other is unnatural...

Once the body dies... the spirit does not return to it because its no longer habitable for said spirit...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

That would be a resurrection though... Not reincarnation...

Same idea really... Though one is the natural cycle... and the other is unnatural...

Once the body dies... the spirit does not return to it because its no longer habitable for said spirit...

I'm perfectly aware that what happened to Lazarus was a resurrection. But the one you claimed to teach well clearly doesn't know that. So why did you give him credit for it?

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

That would be a resurrection though... Not reincarnation...

Same idea really... Though one is the natural cycle... and the other is unnatural...

Once the body dies... the spirit does not return to it because its no longer habitable for said spirit...

I'm perfectly aware that what happened to Lazarus was a resurrection. But the one you claimed to teach well clearly doesn't know that. So why did you give him credit for it?

I was kidding...

Im no teacher... im just some crazy cat

It was just amusing he kinda echoed what I already said...

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

That would be a resurrection though... Not reincarnation...

Same idea really... Though one is the natural cycle... and the other is unnatural...

Once the body dies... the spirit does not return to it because its no longer habitable for said spirit...

I'm perfectly aware that what happened to Lazarus was a resurrection. But the one you claimed to teach well clearly doesn't know that. So why did you give him credit for it?

I was kidding...

Im no teacher... im just some crazy cat

It was just amusing he kinda echoed what I already said...

I dig it. But let's not give credit to those who are using the wrong examples as proof, when you know that's not what it means.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


Fair enough... but I was actually referring to this...

Jesus most definitely taught about reincarnation. Him saying you must be born again literally means born again, through reincarnation. The church is the one who has indoctrinated billions into believing the twisted version of his words, that it means something that happens in this life and not the next.

I said that on the first page... so leave it to me to be a smart arse when the opportunity arises

I just can't help myself sometimes...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

Fair enough... but I was actually referring to this...

Jesus most definitely taught about reincarnation. Him saying you must be born again literally means born again, through reincarnation. The church is the one who has indoctrinated billions into believing the twisted version of his words, that it means something that happens in this life and not the next.

I said that on the first page... so leave it to me to be a smart arse when the opportunity arises

I just can't help myself sometimes...

edit on 27-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Ok. We all joke from time to time. I would disagree with that post you made because it is clear that Jesus was not referring to it in that fashion. But if you take it literally then you are right.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

I would disagree with that post you made because it is clear that Jesus was not referring to it in that fashion.

its clear according to Christianity... But since I am not Christian I don't have to agree with what that religion says about their book...

Its also "clear" to Christianity that Jesus said he was God... Yet in truth, he didn't say that once...

Ye see where im going here?

DO you not know that "no man hath ascended to heaven except those that came from heaven"?

Born again... and again?

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


The introduction of the story of Lazareth's resurrection brings up an interesting question. Where is Lazareth today? Where are the saints that were supposedly promised eternal life through resurrection?

Lazareth, as well as Jesus, and other's who were said to be resurrected, were resurrected into THIS world. I've been told that many Christians believe that the saints, who were supposedly not to taste death, are asleep in their graves, waiting for the great trumpet of the return of Jesus to awaken / resurrect them in this world.

What a waste of eternal life!

If Christians acknowledge the pre-existence of the soul, and the promise of eternal life, why wouldn't they think that some 'born again" souls might return, because there is still work to be done, and saints aren't slackers!

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I would disagree with that post you made because it is clear that Jesus was not referring to it in that fashion.

its clear according to Christianity... But since I am not Christian I don't have to agree with what that religion says about their book...

Its also "clear" to Christianity that Jesus said he was God... Yet in truth, he didn't say that once...

Ye see where im going here?

DO you not know that "no man hath ascended to heaven except those that came from heaven"?

Born again... and again?

edit on 27-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Christianity can say what it want's as a religion but that doesn't make it true. I go by what Christ said, not what Christian religion says. There is a difference.

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I would disagree with that post you made because it is clear that Jesus was not referring to it in that fashion.

its clear according to Christianity... But since I am not Christian I don't have to agree with what that religion says about their book...

Its also "clear" to Christianity that Jesus said he was God... Yet in truth, he didn't say that once...

Ye see where im going here?

DO you not know that "no man hath ascended to heaven except those that came from heaven"?

Born again... and again?

edit on 27-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Christianity can say what it want's as a religion but that doesn't make it true. I go by what Christ said, not what Christian religion says. There is a difference.

That's good...

But Christ said at least one person must be born again... that was Nicodemus... And there was a reason for it...

read John 3 and tell me he wasn't talking about reincarnation...

He must be born again... and no man goes to heaven except those that came from heaven...

It kinda shocks me sometimes that people can't see it.... Reincarnation is right there slapping people in the face... yet most turn blind eye to the notion because its "heresy" according to the church...

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by RealTruthSeeker

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

I would disagree with that post you made because it is clear that Jesus was not referring to it in that fashion.

its clear according to Christianity... But since I am not Christian I don't have to agree with what that religion says about their book...

Its also "clear" to Christianity that Jesus said he was God... Yet in truth, he didn't say that once...

Ye see where im going here?

DO you not know that "no man hath ascended to heaven except those that came from heaven"?

Born again... and again?

edit on 27-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Christianity can say what it want's as a religion but that doesn't make it true. I go by what Christ said, not what Christian religion says. There is a difference.

That's good...

But Christ said at least one person must be born again... that was Nicodemus... And there was a reason for it...

read John 3 and tell me he wasn't talking about reincarnation...

He must be born again... and no man goes to heaven except those that came from heaven...

It kinda shocks me sometimes that people can't see it.... Reincarnation is right there slapping people in the face... yet most turn blind eye to the notion because its "heresy" according to the church...

As always, some just never read the whole story. Let's take a close look.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Now it's clear to me Jesus is telling him that he has be born of two different things in order to get into the kingdom.

Step 1
You must first be born through the water of your mother womb.

Step 2
You must be born of the Spirit through water, thus you must be baptized.

It is clear this is what Jesus is talking about because right after He said this He give's an example of how to be born of the Spirit by going out and being baptized.

So in a way I guess you could argue that baptism is reincarnation but another body is not required to be born again.

There is no reincarnation in Christianity. Now, I realize it is a dogma held in eastern faiths like Buddhism and Hinduism, and it is found in the New Age religions. In light of the current conversation regarding reincarnation and Christianity, the concept may have been a matter of philosophical debate among early church theologians to varying degrees. Although, it was never accepted as standard Christian theology. In other words, they went back and forth about a lot of things in those days. There are answers to this question that can be found in scripture, and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. For example, there is a passage in Hebrews 9:27 in relation to reincarnation:

Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Hebrews

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:

Furthermore, the Catechism of the Catholic Church comments on the subject as well, and shows how reincarnation is not applicable to standard Christian theology.

The meaning of Christian death

1013 Death is the end of man's earthly pilgrimage, of the time of grace and mercy which God offers him so as to work out his earthly life in keeping with the divine plan, and to decide his ultimate destiny. When "the single course of our earthly life" is completed,586 we shall not return to other earthly lives: "It is appointed for men to die once."587 There is no "reincarnation" after death.

I am doing my best to quote straight from the source, and to refrain from the abridged version or some flash-in-the-pan explanation that seems so common place around the internet. Hopefully, a well thought out opinion can derive from it? The glass half-full approach when it comes to matters such as this and other things leads to confusion and conjecture.

Painting stripes on a horse does not make it a zeebra. To provide further explanation, some of the early church fathers were vehemently critical about the concept of reincarnation in relation to Christianity. Most notably: St. Basil the Great, St. Ambrose of Milan, and St. John Chrysostom. The quotes are provided below.

Basil the Great

"[A]void the nonsense of those arrogant philosophers who do not blush to liken their soul to that of a dog, who say that they have themselves formerly been women, shrubs, or fish. Have they ever been fish? I do not know, but I do not fear to affirm that in their writings they show less sense than fish" (The Six Days’ Work 8:2 [A.D. 393]).

Ambrose of Milan

"It is a cause for wonder that though they [the heathen] . . . say that souls pass and migrate into other bodies. . . . But let those who have not been taught doubt [the resurrection]. For us who have read the law, the prophets, the apostles, and the gospel, it is not lawful to doubt" (Belief in the Resurrection 65–66 [A.D. 380]).

John Chrysostom

"As for doctrines on the soul, there is nothing excessively shameful that they [the disciples of Plato and Pythagoras] have left unsaid, asserting that the souls of men become flies and gnats and bushes and that God himself is a [similar] soul, with some other the like indecencies. . . . At one time he says that the soul is of the substance of God; at another, after having exalted it thus immoderately and impiously, he exceeds again in a different way, and treats it with insult, making it pass into swine and asses and other animals of yet less esteem than these" (Homilies on John 2:3, 6 [A.D. 391]).

The three quotes alone should provide ample consensus on the matter of reincarnation not being compatible with Christian theology. Although, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Still, the known facts seem to put reincarnation at odds with Christianity? Like I said earlier, painting stripes on horse does not make it a zeebra. Just my opinion on the topic.