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Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

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posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 03:16 PM
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reply to post by deadeyedick
 


Then are you speaking more in terms of the Trinity? I can understand and appreciate that. Both the father and son are masculine aspects. The Divine Mother is the feminine. Looking to Hindu teachings, the Hindus understand the Divine Mother as a creative energy


She is known as the goddess of strength, the female aspect of divinity, usually considered to have an equal role with the male aspect as energy or the driving force (Shakti), without which the male aspect, which represents consciousness or discrimination, is impotent.


www.devi.us...

In HIndu teaching also, the kundalini force or energy force is said to have three aspects, Ida, Pingala, and Sushumna or the positive polarity, negative polarity, and the center force is neither, but is neutral, and when the positive and negative forces cross the central force, they change polarities.

It is easy to see why we have problems when people do not understand these cosmic forces within the physical body, and the consequence of combining it with other souls. This is why the Church promotes the concept of the nuclear Holy family. It makes sense in the cosmic scheme of things, but people want sometimes to do something different.




posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Your first mistake is assuming too much. You assume a soul is real. Then go on your way to defend your assumption based on a fictitious assertion.

So to answer your question, is a soul created each time a woman's egg is fertilized? No. Probably not.
And if it is, why not a Chimp's egg or a Bonobo's? What makes Human the ape that gets the soul?



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by firegoggles
reply to post by windword
 







As far as Re-incarnation. Most likely genetic memory simply recalling things from ancestors but not an actually previous life that person has lived. That makes it valid information but that does not confirm that the conduit in which it is realized is also actually FROM that time period. It's all recorded through the blood.

I just read through most of this thread, and Sled735 had this posted on page 6:




Some scientists argue it is "cell memory" that was passed to us by our ancestors that gives us memories of past lives. NOT!!! In one case study I read about this person who remembered a past life as a woman that didn't have any children, and she remembered more lives prior to, and, after that one. If it was cell memory, she wouldn't have been able to remember the life of the woman with no children because there was nobody to pass the cell memory to concerning that lifetime.


I have read this too. I believe it was from the book, Many Lives, Many Masters, where a doctor is researching regressive hypnosis, and he stumbles on the past-life accounts by accident.

In one session a lady went back to a lifetime where she had no children to pass the cell memory. But she remembered names, dates, the area where she lived, etc.
It can't be cell memory passed on, at least not in this particular case.

As for there being more people on earth now than in the past, I have read that this is due to so many souls who have been waiting to come back to "right some wrongs" from a past life. (They put it off as long as possible.) They realize the "end times" are upon us; they have run out of time. So many had to come back at the same time, thus creating the influx of the human population we see today.

Great thread. S&F OP.

edit on 6/28/2013 by Mindless1980 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by dominicus
 





Yes, as did all of us. You just don't remember. My memory of pre-existing came after getting the Holy Spirit, Ego Death (Not I, but Christ in me), the Gifts of the Spirit.




Lies. Don't piss on my leg and then tell me it's raining.


Well then, good luck with your biased westernized dogmatic fundamentalism. You'll see for yourself who was right all along on the other side. Matter of time and it goes quick.

If im lying like you assume and speculate, may God himself strike me down this Friday



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by mac420
reply to post by windword
 


Your first mistake is assuming too much. You assume a soul is real. Then go on your way to defend your assumption based on a fictitious assertion.

So to answer your question, is a soul created each time a woman's egg is fertilized? No. Probably not.
And if it is, why not a Chimp's egg or a Bonobo's? What makes Human the ape that gets the soul?


This is why Christians typically do not accept Darwin theory at face value. Darwin theory does not take into account differing types of evolution on earth. Darwinians also see everything in terms of physical things they can see, thus they overlook the angelic kingdoms and the devas and nature spirits.
The animal kingdom in Christendom is seen as separate from the humans in that humans have individual souls, Darwinians see humans as part of the animal kingdom. New Age teachings consider that animals have a group soul rather than individual souls.
These days, groups like PETA try to elevate the group souls of animals to a higher level than the human forms and thus we see a cultic desire to promote animals and view humans as some kind of parasitic existence. This is to get the natural order of things out of synch. Buddhists typically have reverence for all life, but do not necessarily elevate animals higher than man.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by Mindless1980
 


Interesting idea about many souls wanting to incarnate now. What of souls who have been aborted many times and finally get in? I think there still is a physical component to all of this. In New Age teachings, the older souls of Atlantis did not ascend as they should have, and so they are still about....



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 03:59 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


You are arguing using false logic.

You cannot be reincarnated until you have died. Plain and simple. Whether you don't consider it dying because you are reincarnated is your issue to address.

Eternal life means no more dying period, no more reincarnations after being reborn in the spirit.

But obviously you prefer the pretty saying of experiencing life from all perspectives, well that includes being gang raped, experiencing pedophilia, murder, starvation, anxiety, and horror repeatedly as the cycle merely continues on.

Not only that but you will have to commit all these atrocities yourself so you can experience them from all the beautiful perspectives.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by Jakes51
reply to post by windword
 


It goes with out saying that some of Origen's writings may have been interlopated. They are almost two-thousand-years-old, and in those days scribes made copies by hand. We have to remember that this was long before the marvel that was Guttenburg's printing press. I would factor in normal wear and tear of the documents, human error, and in some cases even doctoring some of the text. It is human nature. For the documents to survive in their original form would be a matter of Divine Intervention. Although, I think the jest of his works have survived to this day. But feel free to view them with skepticism.

As for Emperor Justinian I and his over zealous annihilation of differing religious thought and scholarship? That is true. It would be naive to think that all of Origen's works survived that period. So, yes, some of his works were probably destroyed. It would not be the first time books met the flame. That is the way history goes. Please reiterate what you are saying in the second paragraph, because I am not following you? At the very least, provide a decent source on the topic so I can see it for myself.

Back to Origen again, yes he did make a quite a few commentaries on scripture. Moreover, we are expected to read and interpret them as he did. We all have minds of our own. With that said, conclusions arise. Some may agree with them, and others may disagree. I tend to agree to disagree with your conclusions. Although, that does not mean I do not find them interesting. They are!


Thanks. I'm enjoying our debate / conversation.


On the sticky subject of John the Baptist and Elijah? He was Elijah in the sense that his work was that of Elijah's. Is that so hard to fathom, or understand?


I could agree with you if the name "Elijah" was a job title. But during the life of Elijah, his mission was not the same mission of the one who would pave the way for the messiah. Isaiah and Malachi outline the new job duties of this soul and make sure to include that he will be given a (secret) new name, TBA.


Our souls are our own, and they are exclusive to the person. If that was not the case then what is the point of free choice? Reincarnation would espouse that a person has some other guiding force within them, rather than making decisions on their own? That is what I believe.


Not at all. Do you believe that the physical begets the soul, and every body generates it's own soul?


You seem to see it another way, and that is all well and fine. Still, with regard to John the Baptist and Elijah, the gospel passages do not in anyway imply that John the Baptist was indeed the Elijah that was taken to heaven in the OT. I showed the passages that refute it, and that includes the announcment of John TB impending birth by the angel Gabriel and the passage from Luke. Christ spoke in metaphors, parables, and used other techniques to explain the Kingdom of God. He to had to present something so unimagineable in way that people could understand. For example, if you think John the Baptist is Elijah, then he is.


Had the angel told Zacharias that his future son was actually the prophecied Elijah returning, that would have nulled the prophecy of his new name, and new job title. There was no need for John's parents to know God's plan in advance.


Matthew 1:13-15


For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John: [14] And if you will receive it, he is Elias that is to come. [15] He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


I don't think that mean "think whatever you like, it's not important" I think it means that there is a secret doctrine of reincarnation at work that not everyone can understand.

If John the Baptist was Elijah as you see it? Christ would have contradicted the Words of God given by the angel Gabriel to John's parents. The angel made no indication that John would be Elijah in a spiritual or physical sense as reincarnation would prescribe. You have your opinion, and I have mine. I think the prophecy was fulfilled through John the Baptist's righteousness and good works. He embodied eveything Elijah was in the OT, but was completely his own person. In that vein, he was Elijah as prophesized about.


Didn't Paul tell people not to listen to angels if they contradict the "word"? Who are you going to believe, Jesus or the second hand story of an angel's announcement?

If he wasn't really Elijah then the prophecies and the confirmation of Jesus that was a must as to the validation of his identity as messiah is null and void. It has to be Elijah, not someone who is "like" Elijah.

When Jesus returns, as Christianity teaches, will it really be Jesus, or someone with a different name that is "like" Jesus?



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by mac420
 


This thread is based on the premise that the soul is, indeed, real. Personally, I think that all life has a soul. But that is another thread!



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 





Interesting idea about many souls wanting to incarnate now.

One clue to us having to wait and watch through someone else's eyes before coming back is when people recall past lives it is never close in time. Usually at least 30 or 40 yrs is close as one gets.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

reincarnation. are you saying that a grown soul is crawling into an infant ! but an infant can not handle such a growth. an infant is growing and experiencing, it is not capable to carry a grown soul.
moreover if you mean that a soul loses it's growth and then it crawls into an infant, then it is contrary to nature law and of course then it can not be considered as a punishment or another chance.
reincarnation and wisdom can not coexist so it can not coexist with monotheistic religions as well and non_monotheism is just superstitions.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
reply to post by windword
 


You are arguing using false logic.

You cannot be reincarnated until you have died. Plain and simple. Whether you don't consider it dying because you are reincarnated is your issue to address.


Where are the apostles and saints? Did they die? Yes they did. Are they asleep in their graves, wating for Jesus to return to wake them up? What a waste of eternal life. Are the apostles and saints slackers? There is still work to be done!


Eternal life means no more dying period, no more reincarnations after being reborn in the spirit.


The soul can't die, it just believes that it can. Sorry, you don't get to muck things up and then just say "see ya" and go to heaven forever, just because you believe in Jesus. We reap what we sow, the sins of the father are past down for seven generations............



But obviously you prefer the pretty saying of experiencing life from all perspectives, well that includes being gang raped, experiencing pedophilia, murder, starvation, anxiety, and horror repeatedly as the cycle merely continues on.

Not only that but you will have to commit all these atrocities yourself so you can experience them from all the beautiful perspectives.


Talk about false logic!



And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force


War is HELL, but, you may have more than one tour of duty.

You clearly don't understand the concepts of reincarnation.

Do you believe that the act of sex and pro-creation creates a new soul?



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 04:19 PM
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reply to post by Jakes51
 

Don't forget, however, that there was an unfulfilled promise made by Elijah to Elisha for a double portion of the spirit, which took place, at the Jordan River...



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 04:21 PM
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Originally posted by maes2
reply to post by windword
 

reincarnation. are you saying that a grown soul is crawling into an infant ! but an infant can not handle such a growth. an infant is growing and experiencing, it is not capable to carry a grown soul.
moreover if you mean that a soul loses it's growth and then it crawls into an infant, then it is contrary to nature law and of course then it can not be considered as a punishment or another chance.
reincarnation and wisdom can not coexist so it can not coexist with monotheistic religions as well and non_monotheism is just superstitions.


This is an issue with reincarnation and people who claim to experience 'past lives' as it could also be indicative of a form of possession, so long as we are agreeing that there are souls.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by maes2
reply to post by windword
 

reincarnation. are you saying that a grown soul is crawling into an infant ! but an infant can not handle such a growth. an infant is growing and experiencing, it is not capable to carry a grown soul.
moreover if you mean that a soul loses it's growth and then it crawls into an infant, then it is contrary to nature law and of course then it can not be considered as a punishment or another chance.
reincarnation and wisdom can not coexist so it can not coexist with monotheistic religions as well and non_monotheism is just superstitions.


I don't get where you get the idea that I think a "grown" crawls into an infant? Jesus was born into an infant. What's your point?

In my opinion, we are like genii in a bottle. Our bodies can't contain our true essence. We take the bodies that suit our spiritual development.



edit on 28-6-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 04:29 PM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


Church father Origen suggested that John the Baptist was possessed by Elijah and the Holy Ghost, a triage of souls! So, whatever floats your boat!

And then , of course, there would be the possession of the apostles in the upper room.



edit on 28-6-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Sorry but you didn't answer my question to you about the double cross. It is a symbol of the highest degrees of most all esoteric mystery school teachings dealing especially with the theme of your thread. If you are merely not divulging it to 'lower vibration beings' then say so otherwise I will assume you know not what you are talking about.

I already said I do not believe the act of procreation creates a soul.

the idea by its very nature violates all of the teachings which you are arguing about. Spirit descends into matter so you would be wise to investigate the matter from the top down and not the bottom up.

As for your claim of false logic concerning death . . . meh.

If the soul is eternal and exits the material vessel upon death that shows a clear divide between the spiritual sphere and the material sphere. This would be why I said reborn of the SPIRIT, meaning no more cycles of material death but eternal life with the spirit.

If you are quoting Jesus you should also recognize that the body which he promised was not material. It could pass through walls and defy all physics.

I don't care how many times you reincarnate you will not evolve material to overcome physics.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 04:32 PM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 





experiencing life from all perspectives, well that includes being gang raped, experiencing pedophilia, murder, starvation, anxiety, and horror repeatedly as the cycle merely continues on.


Those are the unfortunate manifestations of free will. We have free will as the gift of our Creator to us, but many believe that it was never the intent of the Creator to manifest such things. A study of Enoch shows that fallen angels who cohabitated with the "daughters of men" rebelled against God and in their hatred of man, they decided to teach mankind the arts of war and decoration of the body with ornaments and makeup.
How did the fallen angels do all this? Scripture teaches that angels were cast out into the earth(revelation) and in genesis we are told about the Nephilim who were the sons of God who went into the daughters of men. So angels then had taken embodiment(were cast out of the heaven world) and mated with human women, had the generation of Watchers, the offspring of the two evolutions.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 04:36 PM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


So where do souls come from when babies are born? If they aren't created then how are they in that baby? Wouldn't that mean that babies soul existed prior to its birth?



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


I have no idea what you are referring to by the "double cross."

I don't believe that the soul is a product of biology. That is the question I posed in my OP to those who believe that every fertilized egg begets a shiny new, innocent soul.

I believe in the pre-existence of the soul. I think we are here for the long hall, and have agreed to be participants in the "Great Work." We will still be working this mission till heaven and earth pass away. Then we'll rest and party!



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