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Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

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posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


hahaha maybe but it really is more a matter of politics on that level. As souls from the same soul group can still not agree with one another. Glad I could entertain you though.


I do have a biological sister with whom I have likely interacted before, and we understand each other in spiritual terms. She loves crystals, astrology, and Buddhas, healing, and believes she had incarnations in Lemuria. She is currently involved in a group art project they are calling their "String Theory" display.
edit on 28-6-2013 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 





This evolutionary principal is not unlike a type of cosmic clamshell wherein the process of pearl formation takes place through an aggregate compounding of the spirit around what was otherwise an irritant or an unwanted speck of dirt.


I like that analogy. It reminds me of "The Birth of Venus".




posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


You may find some reservations about the translation? That is okay. I cannot speak or read Greek, and I am beholden to the translation of the theologians. I only posted it to show that even Origen had his doubts about reincarnation in the scope of Christian dogma.

In my humble opinion, the man was absolutely brilliant in his commentaries and philosophical investigations. Still, he did not seem to go completely over the edge and push heretical doctrines. In some circles he is considered a Church Father, and a respected ecclesiastical writer. Even Pope Benedict XVI spoke at great length about Origen, and his remarks were quite favorable.

VATICAN - Pope Benedict XVI continues his general audience teaching on Origen and his ever valid teaching on prayer and the Church


Resuming last week's reflection on “the great Teacher of Alexandria”, the Pope said Origen “continually interweaves his exegetic and theological production with experience relative to prayer. Notwithstanding a theological depth of thought, his treatise is never a purely academic; it is always based on the experience of prayer, of contact with God. In his opinion, in fact, intelligence of the Scriptures demands, even more than study, closeness with Christ and prayer. He is convinced that the best path to learn about God is love, and that there can be no authentic ‘scientia Christi’ unless one is in love with Him”.


He had some ideas that did not mesh well among his peers at the time, and even to this day. Although, there is much to be taken away from his theological investigations. The way I see it regarding Origen, he put some ideas out there but did not go overboard with them when it comes to embracing them as a heretic does. You know, just food for thought. Regarding John the Baptist being Elijah? I thought John the Baptist denied that he was Elijah?

John 1:20-21


And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent from Jerusalem priests and Levites to him, to ask him: Who art thou? [20] And he confessed, and did not deny: and he confessed: I am not the Christ.

[21] And they asked him: What then? Art thou Elias? And he said: I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered: No.


He denied that he was Elijah as spoken of in the Old Testament. Perhaps, he was doing the work of Elijah in spirit to usher in the return of the Messiah as spoken of in prophecy, but he was not the body and soul Elijah. At least as reincarnation would stipulate. I realize Christ said something else about John the Baptist. Often times, many believe he is showing a relationship between John the Baptist and Elijah in the vein of reincarnation. I do not see it that way. The spirit of John the Baptist's work was that of Elijah's, but not Elijah the person body and soul. The passage below comes from when the angel announced to John the Baptist's parents about his impending birth.

Luke 1:17


And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias; that he may turn the hearts of the fathers unto the children, and the incredulous to the wisdom of the just, to prepare unto the Lord a perfect people.


For example, an influential person either dies or is assassinated? One of his followers vows to take up the message or movement in the spirit of the person that died. You follow me? That is how I see it.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 01:20 PM
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reply to post by Jakes51
 


The Church has a vested interest in minimizing the teachings of Origen, and goodness knows they don't want the teaching of fallen angels as described in Enoch to be widely understood.
Why do you think that Mother Mary appears as apparition to innocent children and people, because the Church prefers control.
Teachings of karma and reincarnation predated Christianity. How easy would it have been for travelers then to come across such concepts?
For all we know, POTUS could be the reincarnation of some Roman emperor or early Church Bishop, or even Pres Wilson. One can never tell.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 01:30 PM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


Please forgive me, but did you read something else? It looks as though Pope Benedict XVI gave Origen his due, and showed great respect for the man. How is that minimizing? To me minimizing would mean making no mention of him at all, or disputing his teachings entirely. He did not do that.

As for the other things you mentioned. Marian Apparitions, the fallen angels of Enoch, and so on and so forth? That is for another time and another thread. I thank you for you input and comments on the matter. With respect to the OP, I do not want to derail their thread. Thanks again!
edit on 28-6-2013 by Jakes51 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 01:35 PM
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reply to post by Jakes51
 


A lot of the writings of Origen were burned under Emperor Justinius, and it has been suggested that the remaining documents may have been interpolated. I find it suspicious that these documents are "new discoveries"

But I don't really have a a huge investment in Origen as being the only representative of opposing views of pre-existence and reincarnation. The scriptures speak for themselves. There is a schism in doctrine from the Old Testament's affirmation of pre-existence and the RCC official position 500+ years AD.

Origen's writings are an opinions of the scriptures, which I am just as capable of interpreting as any other curious and sincere student. I come to a different conclusion than that of the official opinion of the Catholic Church.

As far as Elijah and John TB, it was prophesied that Elijah would have a "new name: in Isaiah 62. So John did not lie when he was being questioned in court about who he was. He was not Elijah, he was renewed in "John". Malachi clearly prophesied the coming the Elijah, not "the spirit of his memory" or some such thing.

Jesus said that John IS Elijah. He HAD to be. It was a required prophecy that HAD to be fulfilled that Elijah should come and pave the way for the "Christ", otherwise Jesus couldn't be "The Christ." If John has not been Elijah, the prophecy fails. All this apologetic twisting and rationalizing the official church doctrine, suggesting of triple possession and in the "spirit of", is just far reaching eisegesis, in my opinion.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 01:35 PM
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reply to post by Jakes51
 


John the Baptist could easily have suggested that he was not the same incarnation as Elijah, because his soul mission would have changed a bit, or he could have wished not to draw attention to himself and identify as a particular soul, perhaps he was evading being brought up on charges of heresy. Remember, we are talking about the Saduccees and Pharisees of the time as much as the Romans. If say, Jesus had traveled to the East, as the documentary, "The Lost Years of Jesus" suggest, he could have picked up some concepts and brought them to teach his disciples, or it could have been general knowledge among the Essenes.
We know that the authorities of the day did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah, nor would they have appreciated his throwing around a lot of unusual terminology.

Oh, and I didn't know I was not allowed to speak of Marian apparitions on this thread. Sorry if it offends your sensibilities. My point there was that Mary appears to those who are innocent and devout, not to the powerful and the "spiritually wicked in high places."
edit on 28-6-2013 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by Jakes51
 





And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:
I bet that verse confused Lazarus and others very much. Judgement happens when you die and that is not the same as judgement day.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 01:41 PM
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reply to post by Jakes51
 


So when is the Church going to officially remove the anathema against Origen? Until such time he is still being minimized. Still, it is a step forward in Pope Benedict giving homage to Origen, but officially removing the anathema would go up against nearly 2000 years of previous church doctrine. I doubt any Pope is going to seriously risk that.

Yes, the Pope could have given Origen his due without exalting the teaching on pre-existence of the soul, or Origen himself simply did not carry forward the idea of the soul into succeeding incarnations, as suggested he may not have been too willing to take the idea too far.
I once talked with a girl raised in Catholic private schools, and she told me she would talk to the priests about a lot of things, and karma and reincarnation was among such, and she told me the priests knew of the teaching but do not convey it to their congregations. There has to be a reason for that don't you think?

Also, it appears that Origen believed that the soul would "reconstitute" into higher realms, which would mean that he believed in some kind of ascension, but since the Church promoted actively the concept of Christ as the only Son of God and therefore having the only coveted position of making his ascension, everyone else just goes to heaven somehow without an ascension. Why has the Church invented this position on people meeting their God face to face but without the ascension? If we go to heaven, then we must be making our ascension as Jesus did, but the Church must promote him as above all others instead of the wise brother he really was. Even Mother Mary is said to have gotten the "assumption". They couldn't bear even to give Mother Mary this reward, they had to give it a different name.
Also, the HIndus teach that there is a place for souls to go after death, called the Devachanic Plane.


Devachan is regarded as the place where most souls go after death where desires are gratified, corresponding to the Christian belief in Heaven. However, Devachan is a temporary, intermediate state of being before the soul's eventual rebirth into the physical world.[1]

en.wikipedia.org...

Perhaps this Devachanic plane has been confused with "heaven", and the Devachanic plane is mental which means it is still below the spirit world Jesus would reside in his Ascended state.
Perhaps Origen understood the difference but couched it in terms people could understand.
edit on 28-6-2013 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-6-2013 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 01:42 PM
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If Elijah was the spirit and Moses and John were vessels then Elijah is probably around somewhere now. If any of this is true then there are probably like 100 billion spirits all waiting on their chance to live. So the chances of coming back life after life is not likely. I bet there is a waiting line and way more to the process then we are aware of.
edit on 28-6-2013 by deadeyedick because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

Interesting, because Venus is also the "morning star" of enlightenment.


On that note (morning star), Jesus represents the inverse corollary or the flip side of the Buddhist coin (not that I'm suggesting that Jesus was the reincarnation of Buddha, and in truth I suspect that what might make Jesus unique is that he had one and only one incarnation that was predestined from the very origin of creation) in so far as Buddha was concerned with expunging all desire to release from suffering and enter nirvana, whereas Jesus was filled with passionate desire and took upon himself all suffering as the gateway into heaven-on-earth, and beyond, but as a "we" thing for the sake of "us", as if completing the circle and doing so in recognition that "the practice" isn't something that average Joe would be able to master, whether in one timetime, or many, like a resolution (standard of Justice and Mercy) to the paradox of the karmic wheel, which isn't pretty (contains a potentially degenerative element).

I think that Jesus was quite familiar with Buddhist thought among other streams, and in saying

"What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but lose his own soul (essential character and passion)?"

that he was repudiating Buddhist thought which may be considered, in the final analysis, to lead to a nihilistic view of life, and passionate desire, without which a human being is nothing at all.

He did also say, however

“Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

By self denial however, I don't think he's advocating that we lose our desire or even an attachment to an outcome, but for a shift in one's desire and passion, to follow him through the ordeal (there's always something) and to the promised land of absolute liberation as the final reward and prize.


edit on 28-6-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by pthena
 


Originally posted by pthena
...the Urantia Book has a very much more intelligent author.

You are kidding right?

Urantia is an obvious front with MANY ties to the CIA, MK Ultra, and the S&B family.

Urantia CIA experimental mind control



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by deadeyedick
If Elijah was the spirit and Moses and John were vessels then Elijah is probably around somewhere now. If any of this is true then there are probably like 100 billion spirits all waiting on their chance to live. So the chances of coming back life after life is not likely. I bet there is a waiting line and way more to the process then we are aware of.
edit on 28-6-2013 by deadeyedick because: (no reason given)


Amazing the stuff we can find in Wikipedia


Elijah makes an appearance in the New Testament during an incident known as the Transfiguration.[43
At the summit of an unnamed mount, Jesus' face begins to shine. The disciples who are with Him hear the voice of God announce that Jesus is "My beloved Son." The disciples also see Moses and Elijah appear and talk with Jesus. Peter is so struck by the experience that he asks Jesus if they should build three "tabernacles": one for Elijah, one for Jesus and one for Moses.



en.wikipedia.org...

So while John the Baptist may have been recorded as denying he is Elijah come again, prophecy still regards Elijah as preceeding the coming Messiah. So if John really was Elijah, what happened after he was beheaded by the authorities? Perhaps his appearance with Jesus and Moses was that all three of them made their ascension but this is overlooked by the Church due to the Church wishing to conceal the esoteric things from the masses and their desire to make Jesus seem to be somewhat of an anomaly, whose attainment is not to be approached by mere mortals, perhaps it was a continuance of their belief in earlier gods and goddesses.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 02:05 PM
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reply to post by RealTruthSeeker
 


"Step 2
You must be born of the Spirit through water, thus you must be baptized. "

Just one question.....

*clears throat*

............ what?

You added "through water". He didn't say that. Take a lesson from mystic teachings. You couldn't be more wrong here.

Study ancient Sufi traditions and you'll understand the idea that every man must die twice...it's exactly the same as what is being said in this passage.

edit on 28-6-2013 by Ewok_Boba because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 02:09 PM
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reply to post by dominicus
 





Yes, as did all of us. You just don't remember. My memory of pre-existing came after getting the Holy Spirit, Ego Death (Not I, but Christ in me), the Gifts of the Spirit.




Lies. Don't piss on my leg and then tell me it's raining.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


That is the way i see it. After John was beheaded then he was separated from his body and the spirit that he was bound to. Becoming one to guide the next in the line.

I believe that we all are raising a positive spirit and negative that are part of our own spirit and we are bound to a negative spirit that latches on at puberty right after a positive spirit working with the Holy spirit or sometimes the Holy spirit herself helps us work out our lives and our spiritual growth needs and we are also connected to a spirit guide that was previously incarnated and when we die we are separated from all and given the choice to reincarnate if needed but one must spend a lifetime as a guide before coming back. I have pulled most of this from my memory and know there is truth in it but also know that i'm just trying to describe something from memory. That's a lot to get to know ones self.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 02:38 PM
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reply to post by deadeyedick
 


yeh, I dunno about all this positive and negative spirit stuff. How many spirits are you attaching to the same body? I understand that everyone has one soul which was created and incarnated in various embodiments, and developed in many ways in each embodiment for growth and understanding. However, when one studies Hindu teachings, or even Buddhism, we often get these ideas of various Personalities of the Godhead, such as Krishna being the 6th incarnation of Visnu, the Hindu version of the Son aspect. Is Jesus one aspect of Visnu? Or are they different personalities? Kwan Yin was said to have also been a female emanation of Avalokitesvara, a male emanation.

Perhaps you mean that the soul is part of the feminine aspect in matter being more yin and the negative polarity, while the spirit is yang and is the masculine aspect, and that both the male and female aspects embody in one being created in the image and likeness of God, or perhaps you meant the male and female aspects existing as "twin flames" with the same etheric spirit blueprint but these twin flames are usually thought to manifest in two different souls. But we are getting into some serious esoteric ideas here. I've even heard of theories that some souls are so used to incarnating as one or the other of female or male, that when they incarnate as the opposite, they become uncomfortable in their bodies, which could easily explain some of the social problems in gender identity. I've read that twin flames typically incarnate as brother and sister, father and mother, parent and child, as both male and female, so what if twin flames both incarnate as say...in male bodies at the same time and feel drawn to each other?
edit on 28-6-2013 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 03:01 PM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


I have never studied anything but the bible and my own mind. What i say is hard to wrap ones mind around but i think we can agree that a spirit has to come from somewhere and it should make some sense that there is birth on the spiritual side. I believe this is where the Holy spirit came from. GOD is the only one that can separate what we raise from us and it was after Jesus went to the Father that the Holy spirit came to us.

I believe that when we complete our purpose here God can separate us from what we raised and they have to come down here and the male aspect is attached to a vessel at puberty stage and the female part is present during childhood feeding energy to ones life to negate the pull that the negative one has. These are seperate from the spirit guide that helps us because the guide is not bound to us and is free to travel the astral planes day to day. The spirit guide is not the same as the spirit that is tied to us from another place that really is just along for the ride.

I do think Jesus mastered all these in the sense that he could know everything that was happening in all realms and could change things in one realm to effect another realm. The force that ties all is love and faith.



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 03:07 PM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 





I've read that twin flames typically incarnate as brother and sister, father and mother, parent and child, as both male and female, so what if twin flames both incarnate as say...in male bodies at the same time and feel drawn to each other?
I think sulaw on page one said it best. You are starting to get into spiritual needs to grow and punishment and that will drag the thread down i think. Humans would not be here if they knew why they are here.

I will add that most of the problems in the church comes from them truely denying what happened on the cross and how what Jesus done negated the need for spiritual growth by the old means rather than accepting his gift of salvation. Many priest made sure that they would reincarnate near their family inside the church knowing they would defile the church with their dirty deeds.
edit on 28-6-2013 by deadeyedick because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2013 @ 03:11 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


It goes with out saying that some of Origen's writings may have been interlopated. They are almost two-thousand-years-old, and in those days scribes made copies by hand. We have to remember that this was long before the marvel that was Guttenburg's printing press. I would factor in normal wear and tear of the documents, human error, and in some cases even doctoring some of the text. It is human nature. For the documents to survive in their original form would be a matter of Divine Intervention. Although, I think the jest of his works have survived to this day. But feel free to view them with skepticism.

As for Emperor Justinian I and his over zealous annihilation of differing religious thought and scholarship? That is true. It would be naive to think that all of Origen's works survived that period. So, yes, some of his works were probably destroyed. It would not be the first time books met the flame. That is the way history goes. Please reiterate what you are saying in the second paragraph, because I am not following you? At the very least, provide a decent source on the topic so I can see it for myself.

Back to Origen again, yes he did make a quite a few commentaries on scripture. Moreover, we are expected to read and interpret them as he did. We all have minds of our own. With that said, conclusions arise. Some may agree with them, and others may disagree. I tend to agree to disagree with your conclusions. Although, that does not mean I do not find them interesting. They are!

On the sticky subject of John the Baptist and Elijah? He was Elijah in the sense that his work was that of Elijah's. Is that so hard to fathom, or understand? Our souls are our own, and they are exclusive to the person. If that was not the case then what is the point of free choice? Reincarnation would espouse that a person has some other guiding force within them, rather than making decisions on their own? That is what I believe.

You seem to see it another way, and that is all well and fine. Still, with regard to John the Baptist and Elijah, the gospel passages do not in anyway imply that John the Baptist was indeed the Elijah that was taken to heaven in the OT. I showed the passages that refute it, and that includes the announcment of John TB impending birth by the angel Gabriel and the passage from Luke. Christ spoke in metaphors, parables, and used other techniques to explain the Kingdom of God. He to had to present something so unimagineable in way that people could understand. For example, if you think John the Baptist is Elijah, then he is.

Matthew 1:13-15


For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John: [14] And if you will receive it, he is Elias that is to come. [15] He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.


If John the Baptist was Elijah as you see it? Christ would have contradicted the Words of God given by the angel Gabriel to John's parents. The angel made no indication that John would be Elijah in a spiritual or physical sense as reincarnation would prescribe. You have your opinion, and I have mine. I think the prophecy was fulfilled through John the Baptist's righteousness and good works. He embodied eveything Elijah was in the OT, but was completely his own person. In that vein, he was Elijah as prophesized about.



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