Transgender man in women's mma? Thoughts please.

If there is no difference between men and women when it comes to sports, then why are there separate leagues? It would seem to me that if that is the case they should just have 1 league and let the best of the best make it to the top, man or woman.

On the other hand, if the purpose of the 2 leagues is to allow for men and women to compete against those they are more fairly matched against, then having a person who was born a man, reached maturity as a man, then later surgically became a woman gives this person a very unfair advantage. This completely defeats the purpose of having 2 separate leagues in the first place.

I am all for equality, but there are certain cases like this where exceptions need to me made to keep the competition fair.

DC

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Hey right on! Cimande/ kuntao guy myself. Glad to see another Kali silat sinawale arnis escrima panatukan guy on the threads. Everyone here should listen to this guy he probably knows what he's talking about

reply to post by amazing


Well, you can measure the size, muscle mass, weight, etc of the person. For testosterone, take some blood, or some pee - although blood is more accurate.

That's another good point though.

In addition to basic fundamental physiological advantages - size, strength, lateral quickness, forward quickness, peak speed, vertical jump - men also have more testosterone in large amounts.

Physiologists measure these differences all the time. The most masculine of females - those who participate in MMA for example, will still have lower testosterone levels than the most effeminate of men. Yet, we know that testosterone is the made ingredient which masculinizes the fetus - leading to the formation of TESTicles.

Testosterone and aggression go together. Meaning, the most masculine of men will be pumping this chemical throughout their endocrine-nervous systems in large amounts.

But, one could counter: being a transgendered woman, maybe fallon fox takes estrogen as a part of his/her sex change regiment. Duly noted. Though, this individual - as a biological male - must produce a hefty amount of testosterone if she/he is still interested in MMA. On a psychological note, this would give neuropsychiatrists quite a project. Its believed that a dearth of pre-natal testosterone is the primal cause of adult homosexuality. But Gender Dysphoria (what Fallon deals with) seems to be of a different genus, and might not even be related to aberrant tesosterone production, but overall, is more psychogenic in it's pathology.

In anycase, back on point: She's physically male. The MMA organizers should take this into account in their decision. If they let her/him participate in MMA, they set a precedent. Perhaps her physical gifts aren't so outstanding as to warrant exclusion from participation. But what do you when the athlete in question is without a question masculine in his abilities. He moves like typical male athletes - that is, moves faster, jumps higher, stronger - than female athletes. It would be so obscenely one sided that it would have the air of a man beating on a woman rather than a legitimate MMA fight.

Totally disgusting the whole topic.. The trans is still the same sex. It is not fair to take a biological male against a biological female. They can dress like a women all they want but they are still male!


Gs

Is this even really a conversation.

reply to post by Astrocyte


You sure put a lot of words in my mouth.

I simply shared my first hand experience. Thought it was pertinent to the discussion. That is all.

Give me a break.

Watch two professional male MMA fighters pound each other to hamburger in the ring. Then watch two female MMA fighters. Stupid, this isn't even a discussion.

reply to post by guymontag


It really isn't. Women are great fighters when their fighting each other, some of them are extremely talented but they just aren't built the same way men are period.

FYI there is a fighter in southern california Mike Guymon, was a UFC fighter for a while well known in the socal circuit.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


For future notice. Personal experience does not always correlate with objective fact. If I happen to have a "good experience" with a tiger in a cage - in that the tiger didn't attack me - it would be idiotic for me to infer from that experience that it is safe to walk around tigers.

You may have had experiences with female MMA fighters that led you to say - perhaps hyperbolically - that girls are good fighters. But in fact, when you take all the objective information we have on this subject, from track and field competitions, from professional sports, it's common knowledge, something a grade school knows, that men are better athletes than women. Ergo, you put layla ali and mike tyson in the same ring - layla ali is going to go down with the first punch he lands on her. Or, from modern MMA - put Anderson Silva with the leading female fighter: same situation. Shes going down the first chance he gets.

One wonders whether there might be some unconscious inhibition on the part of men when they fight a women. Do you go all out? Isn't there a strong part in us that holds us back - at least somewhat - from hurting a woman? The very fact that their chest region is so exposed - and the breasts happen to be extremely sensitive to touch, and thus a punch - would make me uncomfortable with attacking her all out, since my all out attack might involve a punch to the upper chest region, if it happened to be open.

Last thing. I think guys can get caught up in the extroverted socializing and start thinking and saying stupid things with regard to female athletes. In any sports - any competition of any sort - men will beat women. Female tennis has a good track record with attracting crowds, but we tend to forget that they are inferior to men tennis players. Put Federer or Nadal or Djokovic against Serena Williams, and Serena Williams is going to lose. Why?? Female hips are attractive to me - evolutionarily speaking, males pay attention to the waist to hip ratio as an indicator of high fertility. But this ability, this wide waist, sacrifices athletic mobility. Serena Williams, for example, wouldn't be able to move side to side, laterally, as fast as Nadal, or Federer. Also having boobs jump around in your chest affects the full motion of your tennis swings. In addition to this quicker lateral movement, men are stronger: they can get to the ball faster, and hit it harder.

So that's tennis: basketball? Average female height is 5'4 and a bit. Average male height is 5'9 and a bit. 5 inch difference. Again, there's the hip issue which makes running less fluid for women then for men. In fact, if you look at the top female athletes, you will notice that they have very unfeminine like bodies: thinner hips, smaller bust. If they had the fatter waist and bigger bust, that would take away from their athletic abilities.

I'm not trashing female athletics for the fun of it, but its important that people think accurately about male and female differences. Under no conditions should a biological male be allowed to participate in a female competition - least of all MMA. It's just not fair. It's not fair because once you let one in - and the one you let in may not be particularly exceptional - you establish a precedent, a justification for letting all others in. Before you know it, you have men who are winning championship belt solely because they are men fighting women.

It may have been said already, but I'd wager that Ronda Rousey would whip his/her ass.
I love that woman.

ETA: if you are dumb enough to get in the ring, as a man or a woman, with Ronda Rousey, there is a better than fair chance she will snap your arm. Simple as that.

I say set up a fight. A LOT of people would tune in for that.

reply to post by JayinAR


Ronda vs Dominic Cruz? Heh.....

And folks who are saying strength has nothing, or little to do with MMA fighting simply do not know MMA fighting.

Lets see some of these folks pull guard and get stacked up by a ball of muscle and pounded in the face a little. Haha. I've been there.
Or even worse, pull guard and have someone pick you up off the ground. It happens. But I bet Rousey would get him/her. I would put good money on it actually.

reply to post by onequestion



It wouldn't surprise me a bit. She has a habit of breaking people.

ETA: if it were me though, I wouldn't have any shame in it. Ronda is a bad, bad woman. And it sounds like it was an accident. I mean, I can't imagine someone deliberately popping someone's knee out in practice.

I would own up to it.

If athletes aren't allowed to take steroids, how is taking hormones any different? Perhaps, MMA should have a 'transgender' league.

This is a slippery slope, as I'm sure it would open up all kinds of 'what-ifs'. At what point is man and woman different, if not for the chromosome difference? So, we are to ignore the natural law of human anatomy, all the way down to the competitive sports level?

UGH!! When, and where, does this all end? I'm thinking we have a future of being one single sex. Perhaps we'll eventually evolve into having a reproduction cycle much like plants. Someday, we'll simply be walking down the street and get pollinated!

On another point...why even have weight levels in MMA? Why not let wafers fight heavyweights? I mean, if someone feels like they are thin, why shouldn't they fight in a lighter weight group? Isn't it basically the same area of logic? I may have a penis, but I want to fight amongst those without one? I may be heavy, but I want to fight lighter people?

reply to post by SourGrapes


It is sorta the exact opposite of taking growth hormone though, is it not?
At least in this case.

But what if a woman were to go the other way. If they allow hormones in the ring for transgenders then what is to stop a woman from "hulking up" on a man?? Good point. It is a very slippery slope.

It should be disallowed, honestly. But I'd like to see him get busted up first.

ETA: back in the day there were no weight classes in the UFC. The sport was much more dangerous back then. Nowadays the only person I'd like to see move all the way up is Silva. I think he could beat anyone, in any class.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by SourGrapes

 

It is sorta the exact opposite of taking growth hormone though, is it not?
At least in this case.

.

Not really, IMO, as they are both taken for an advantage. The advantage is what isn't fair in competition, hence the reason steroids aren't allowed.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower

Originally posted by DeadSnow
The world has officially gone MAD!, she's a he, a man, he belongs in mens MMA. Transgendered individuals should not be allowed to participate in sports, period!

Really?

You would prohibit people from playing in sports because of who they are?

Classy.

As for the the topic. There's enough science and medicine around to prove that she or he is capable of fighting at the same level, without advantage as whatever sex they feel identity with.

It's insane to even bring it up as social or moral issue. Just have the scientists give you the facts and make your decisions based on that.

~Tenth

Honestly it feels like your trying to make this a social issue. I see a lot of common sense on here as well though.



A bit crude but this says it all.

Two brutal knockouts within the first round of her first 2 fights and look at other women fighters in her weight division... this borderlines domestic violence. I don't care how many Milla Jovovich movies people have seen with these super women warriors taking on the world, in reality this is a bit painful to watch and all emotions aside i don't know how this can be considered legal.

reply to post by SourGrapes


In this case though, the hormone therapy puts the fighter at a disadvantage by stopping, or at least slowing, the development of testosterone.

Very interesting indeed. I think as long as she qualifies by all the standard rules such as weight class and are in all respects "legally qualified" to fight each other then go for it.

Personally I would love to see Ronda get yet another arm bar submission.

However, if one of the two fighters has a valid argument for why the fight is unfair then I would hope that the officials of MMA would take time to evaluate the situation very closely before making a final decision.

When you deal with Professional Fighters of this caliber things can change in a flash and I don't think gender would have too much of an advantage over all. It's going to come down to training, desire and maybe some luck in there too.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by SourGrapes

 

In this case though, the hormone therapy puts the fighter at a disadvantage by stopping, or at least slowing, the development of testosterone.

Yes, but it does not put the entire fighter into a female physique, nor hormonally equal. Therefore, it IS an advantage over the other females.

Edit to add.. The hormone therapy may put this person at a disadvantage against other males, but he is still at an advantage over the females. Therefore, he does gain an advantage by taking the hormones! His advantage is fighting the females while still (technically) being male.