The Errors of Edward Snowden and His Global Hypocrisy Tour

Alright folks. I know many on ATS believe Snowden is a Hero. Some might even view him as a Martyr to the cause..

Personally, I believe this man has done what he thought was best for his Country. That being said, I found this article that really makes one think about Edward Snowden. I found myself agreeing with some of this mans points. I don't know exactly what our Governments plan is for him, but I do know they want to make an example out of him.

Its highly hypocritical of what our Government is doing, if you ask me, but lets get to the gist of the article.

Snowden's presumed Arrogance.

I’ll have to assume that Snowden is on this fit of self-righteous arrogance because he thinks there is something wrong with what he’s seen of United States surveillance in other countries. But to decide that standard espionage activities are improper is a foolish, ahistorical belief.

Heres where it gets interesting. The Author decides to use history as to show "WHY" espionage is beneficial.

(Lets not mix up spying on Americans, as beneficial)

N.S.A. surveillance has been beneficial repeatedly in American foreign policy. Although most instances remain secret, we already know that the N.S.A. listened to Soviet pilots during the 1983 shooting down of a South Korean airliner; used intercepted diplomatic messages to track a 1986 Berlin disco bombing to Libya; and used the cell phones’ SIM cards to track terrorist suspects after the 9/11 attacks.

And......

But let’s take a more important example. In 1937—at a time when the United States was declaring neutrality in the emerging global tensions that fueled World War II—the Japanese government created a cipher for its military messages using a device called the “97-shiki O-bun In-ji-ki.” The Americans code-named it “Purple.”

The United States military was able to intercept Japanese communications (the very reason that Tokyo needed a code) but couldn’t decrypt the information sent through the Purple machine. William Friedman, the first American cryptography expert who tried to break the code, made some progress before suffering a nervous breakdown. Using that initial information, others managed to break more of the code. Once cracked, the United States could track Japanese naval-troop movements and even intercepted communications containing plans for the Pearl Harbor attack—information that was not properly used.

Would Snowden have been outraged that the United States was intercepting Japanese data at a time when the countries were not at war? It took years to crack the Purple code—would Snowden think the United States should have waited until after Pearl Harbor to tap into Japanese communication lines, and only then begin the arduous effort to break the code? And if not, then what is his point in turning over these kinds of secrets to the Chinese? All I have to say is, thank God Snowden was not around in 1937, four years before the United States joined the war—Lord knows how many Americans would have died if he had acted with whatever arrogance, or self-righteousness, or narcissism, or pure treasonous beliefs that drove him to his espionage on behalf of the Chinese.

The Errors of Edward Snowden and His Global Hypocrisy Tour

There's really much more in the article, that does make one think. I suggest you all read it before commenting. Is Snowden filled with arrogance, self- righteousness, and narcissism as this man believes? I do know this much, he does make a point with the Japanese code.......

So, lets not flame me folks, as I'm just providing a article that I found to be very interesting, in interesting times.


ATS, Thoughts?

When it comes to surveillance of "your own", one should also realize that we live in a globalized world, we're a pretty good mix. Groups of idiots exist in any country, sympathizing any country.

reply to post by Nevertheless


K.

Do you think that Snowden didn't understand the whole impact of what he was doing?

I just think he wanted the World to know what was happening. I wonder if he understands that their might be costs, to his exposure.

The one thing that I can agree 100% is there is no need to spy on your own populace. Period. I also believe it wont stop regardless of the exposure of our Country doing it.

reply to post by sonnny1


Snowden thinks 'spying' is bad and yet takes a job at a spy agency decides oh damn they actually spy on people then runs to two countries that individually eclipses what America has historically done pretty much since it's inception as well as their own beginnings.

Yeah that is something alright:

There are a lot of terms that fit that, and yes hypocrisy.

Interesting note where are whistle blowers now from another historical perspective they all have ended up like Benedict Arnold, or sitting in prison.

As well as those who came before Snowden 'disenfranchised' with the US defected to places like Russia, and China.

I see the point and its a valid one. When someone is privy to as much information as this man was its hard not to develop a complex. I believe this is effecting the way he disseminates the information, not particularly his motivation to leak the information in the first place.

In Hong Kong he lets China know we've been spying on them and hacking their cellphone companies. THAT is not responsible. Does he fail to realize we are in a escalating cyber war with China? It is akin to revealing troop locations in a military war. He is too righteous for his own good at the moment, but I do believe maybe he is starting to see this. He claims to want to be responsible but that information release to China was anything but.

With that said, the country (and to a lesser extent the world) will be a better place because of the disclosure of the widespread surveillance on the american people. That is the only information he should have released. America shouldnt have these weapons to use against its own people. There is NO justification for that. There is justification for why you shouldnt have released the information to China, without a doubt.

Is he a hero? Yes.
Is he also too righteous for ALL our own good? Yes.

reply to post by sonnny1


I think our biggest problem is that we are letting the MSM colour our perceptions of Snowden.

And the MSM almost uniformly has condemned Snowden right along with the government.


Here are the facts;
Our government is spying on us.
Our government is collecting a massive database on all of us.
Our government is violating our privacy.
Our government is violating our Constitutional rights.
Our government has justified its breaking of the law.

Our government is creating the talking points about Snowden to distract us from all of the above.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by sonnny1

 

I think our biggest problem is that we are letting the MSM colour our perceptions of Snowden.

And the MSM almost uniformly has condemned Snowden right along with the government.


Here are the facts;
Our government is spying on us.
Our government is collecting a massive database on all of us.
Our government is violating our privacy.
Our government is violating our Constitutional rights.
Our government has justified its breaking of the law.

Our government is creating the talking points about Snowden to distract us from all of the above.

I believe many on here are quite aware of the issue of our government. But this thread is about Snowden. No one is distracted, we are choosing to speak on this. No foolery here. I believe the point is the man has a secret stash of information he says he will release and he hasnt exactly been responsible with the information hes released so far. OK we know about PRISM. Does he have information that would make the world a better place? Or is he going to start a damn war? Both are very possible.

reply to post by StrangeTimez


Yeah well the point does stand considering before Snowden we are talking about IRS/Benghazi/AP SPYING, and Holder lying.

Now all anyone wants to talk about is how 'Snowden cares',

reply to post by StrangeTimez


Snowden is simply the messenger. His motivations? I care not.

The information about our government that he is bringing to light? I want to stay focused on that.

Do you think for an instant that most actually care about the motivations of the messenger?

reply to post by neo96


Soon im going to not even waste the energy to straighten you out. Im sure you might enjoy that.

Snowden thinks 'spying' is bad and yet takes a job at a spy agency

AND THEN RATS THEM OUT. Get it? Or do you need a paycheck to change your opinion?

The whistleblowers of the recent past are exactly why he "disenfranchised" from america. And I love how you use that word, almost like some paid shill trying to make it look like hes changed sides. He left because we lock whistleblowers up in solitary confinement for years and force them to stand in the middle of a barren room naked all day. We charge them as spies. Their cars magically crash and burn hours after they send emails asking for help, the FBI is after them. Do you get it?

Thats the last time Im replying to any of the garbage you post. Ive given you enough evidence but you deflect common sense like your a godamn jedi.

reply to post by beezzer


This thread is about the messenger. Thats the point I was trying to make. There are many other threads about the message.

reply to post by StrangeTimez


Far enough. My point is that the MSM (in partnership with government) will continue to create articles about the messenger to obfuscate the central issues of what the government is actually doing.

reply to post by beezzer


I understand your concern. With an issue this large looming over us sometimes it feels like if we devote energy to ANYTHING else we are shortchanging ourselves. But in reality I ask myself several times a day, What do we do? Its super late (early) here but after I get some sleep Im going to make a post about that if one isnt made already. Because I dont know what to do. But I refuse to do nothing. Just have to figure it out.

Just because our govt. Has been spying on Americans and other countries for as long as anyone can remember doesn't make it acceptable.

The source even points out that with all the information that gets collected they fail to act on it in a timely manner.
As has already been said, I could care less about Snowden, I'm interested in the info he has released.

Collecting everything there is to know about everyone on the planet to catch a handful of scumbags is not a fair trade.

I'm with Beezer on this one. Too much energy is being spent on discrediting Snowden and not enough discussions on what lines the US (and allies) have crossed. We were assured that US citizens were not being "listened" to just a few years ago. Now we are finding out that it was a lie. Sure, they may not be actively "listening" but there is a huge database being assembled to store every word that is being said on the planet. The OP article itself proves that messages are being stored for "future use". Even if they are not actively listening to you now does not mean your words will not be scrutinized in the future if you fall into a "disenting" category. Once you fall into the dissenting category your words will be cherry picked and amped up to volume 11. You can't ask for a better PsyOp than that causing people to be their own "gatekeeper" since anything you say WILL be used against you in the court of public opinion.

I personally wish Snowden would unleash the Kraken if he does have his hands on its leash. Sometimes you have to burn down the forrest in order to save it even if some good trees burn.

reply to post by sonnny1


It all comes back to the targeting of efforts and the motivation for the gathering of information.

Most people with a modicum of common sense would agree that we need these agencies to effectively gather intelligence against other powers, discover military plans and secrets, and to then work to successfully counter them.

This goes without saying.

However, what we currently have is mass targeting of every free citizen able to be monitored. The excuse of "counter terrorism" is being used to bloat and further the power and reach of an unelected and ungoverned group of people. These people now have no limits when it comes to who they can target or for what reasons, and their unaccountability makes that extremely dangerous.

The fear of "terrorism" is being exaggerated for another purpose. We can all see this. You are more likely to be hit by a bus, or fall in the tub, or choke to death while eating, than you are likely to be harmed in a terrorist attack. This is a fact that every sane person with a logical mind can grasp. Therefore it is clear that this data gathering is for an ulterior purpose, and one that they are refusing to admit.

Likewise, successful intelligence gathering requires precise targeting to be effective in what they claim it is being used for. Gathering the information of millions of completely innocent people certainly cannot HELP the specific targeting or locating of real threats. This is an impossible pill to swallow.

Terrorists are not messaging each other on Facebook, they're not calling each other on Skype, they're not sending each other emails or text messages. They are using Tor, they are using a private server, they are using basic "novel" encryption (sharing a book between them and coding messages to page, line and word etc - unbreakable by intelligence agencies without a copy of every book ever published in Human history).

Overall, the author of that piece is an ignoramus who doesn't seem to understand the problem, doesn't seem to want to consider the real threats, and simply wants to further attack and discredit a heroic young man. The author is an apologist, ignoring the obvious and rational concerns, ignoring the logic and reason, and deliberately attempting to use historical arguments to defend a completely different form of "intelligence gathering" against wholly innocent people.

Snowden is merely part of a covert operation of an international spy group. The information has been exposing are pretty much like Anonymous and Wikileaks trademarks - nothing earth-shaking.

Sorry I'm not buying the entire false flags. If Snowden is acting on his own, he would have been silenced the moment he stepped onto an airliner.

Originally posted by sonnny1
Alright folks. I know many on ATS believe Snowden is a Hero. Some might even view him as a Martyr to the cause..

Personally, I believe this man has done what he thought was best for his Country. That being said, I found this article that really makes one think about Edward Snowden. I found myself agreeing with some of this mans points. I don't know exactly what our Governments plan is for him, but I do know they want to make an example out of him.

Its highly hypocritical of what our Government is doing, if you ask me, but lets get to the gist of the article.

Snowden's presumed Arrogance.

I’ll have to assume that Snowden is on this fit of self-righteous arrogance because he thinks there is something wrong with what he’s seen of United States surveillance in other countries. But to decide that standard espionage activities are improper is a foolish, ahistorical belief.

Heres where it gets interesting. The Author decides to use history as to show "WHY" espionage is beneficial.

(Lets not mix up spying on Americans, as beneficial)

N.S.A. surveillance has been beneficial repeatedly in American foreign policy. Although most instances remain secret, we already know that the N.S.A. listened to Soviet pilots during the 1983 shooting down of a South Korean airliner; used intercepted diplomatic messages to track a 1986 Berlin disco bombing to Libya; and used the cell phones’ SIM cards to track terrorist suspects after the 9/11 attacks.

And......

But let’s take a more important example. In 1937—at a time when the United States was declaring neutrality in the emerging global tensions that fueled World War II—the Japanese government created a cipher for its military messages using a device called the “97-shiki O-bun In-ji-ki.” The Americans code-named it “Purple.”

The United States military was able to intercept Japanese communications (the very reason that Tokyo needed a code) but couldn’t decrypt the information sent through the Purple machine. William Friedman, the first American cryptography expert who tried to break the code, made some progress before suffering a nervous breakdown. Using that initial information, others managed to break more of the code. Once cracked, the United States could track Japanese naval-troop movements and even intercepted communications containing plans for the Pearl Harbor attack—information that was not properly used.

Would Snowden have been outraged that the United States was intercepting Japanese data at a time when the countries were not at war? It took years to crack the Purple code—would Snowden think the United States should have waited until after Pearl Harbor to tap into Japanese communication lines, and only then begin the arduous effort to break the code? And if not, then what is his point in turning over these kinds of secrets to the Chinese? All I have to say is, thank God Snowden was not around in 1937, four years before the United States joined the war—Lord knows how many Americans would have died if he had acted with whatever arrogance, or self-righteousness, or narcissism, or pure treasonous beliefs that drove him to his espionage on behalf of the Chinese.

So, lets not flame me folks, as I'm just providing a article that I found to be very interesting, in interesting times.
ATS, Thoughts?

What is most interesting to me about this thread...is years mentioned....starting from 1937 onward. Obviously a plethora of useful spying, gathering intel...and not to forget...prevention and using this data.

Yet...somewhere around 2000-2001....there was no way of gathering intel, or understanding or preventing anything. Yet it is so beneficial. In one real instance when this "beneficial spying" could have had a real impact on events...somehow...the administration claims...nobody knew anything about it.And I think back in the 20th century, they were still using phones for communication.

Anyway...all this propaganda against Snowden that's currently going on...it's not going to work...at least not on me. Whether he is the worst criminal on this world, whether he has sotonic ritualistic sex with farm animals, or he is the worst hypocrite in the world...I DON'T CARE.....the only thing that matters to me...is he uncovered that the US Gov is breaking the law.

The US gov can keep on explaining to you how it's beneficial...maybe they should explain it to the 9/11 victims and families. Also, not to forget...Pearl Harbor...spying ? Yeah..."not properly used"...how was it beneficial than? How many died? Where are those benefits ? Was Boston prevented? Was Sandy Hook prevented? Was JFK prevented (ups, he was )? So what's the point people ???? No wars/attacks prevented, many deaths ? Where is the real benefit of this global spying going on? I'm sure there are some...but not for you people...

Yeah...he's the hypocrite alright. Yes...he's the arrogant one.

/end foaming at the mout

Originally posted by StrangeTimez
reply to post by beezzer

 

But in reality I ask myself several times a day, What do we do? Its super late (early) here but after I get some sleep Im going to make a post about that if one isnt made already. Because I dont know what to do. But I refuse to do nothing. Just have to figure it out.

I can kick you off, if you like:

First sign this:
Petition to Ecuador to Grant Asylum

Then this:
Petition to Whitehouse to Pardon Snowden

Then this:
Prosecute DIrector of NSA for Lying to Congress

Contact the relevant ones of these:
Elected Officials USA gov

Attend your nearest one of these:
Restore the Fourth rallies

Then watch this (first 2 mins are in German but the rest is in English)


Then give yourself one of these:
[img][/img]

reply to post by Rocker2013

Most people with a modicum of common sense would agree that we need these agencies to effectively gather intelligence against other powers, discover military plans and secrets, and to then work to successfully counter them.

So what you're saying is...alphabet agencies can steal other's secrets and use them to win wars, or whatever....but if somebody "steals" US secrets, than he is criminal...than it's a crime?

When you intercept a coded message...it means the somebody does not want you to see the content. If you break the code, you are in essence stealing something not meant for you. It's no different than breaking in to someone's house and cracking the safe. It's stealing. Stealing is in general frowned upon by our society. It gets you in trouble with the law.

gather intelligence against other powers

mostly by stealing....

discover military plans and secrets

stealing like there is no tomorrow....



SPYING

Espionage or spying involves a government or individual obtaining information considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information. Espionage is inherently clandestine, as it is taken for granted that it is unwelcome and, in many cases illegal and punishable by law

....I see many crimes committed here...so let's not get holly on Snowden. No one has that luxury.